If a "good, faithful, holy priest" told you ____ was okay, WHY are you asking US what we think?

[bluerose]

I have encountered this, not just here on the forums, but in real life as well. People have consulted their priests about any or all of the following:

1. masturbation
2. artificial birth control
3. sterilization
4. remarriage after civil divorce (rarely, but I’ve heard it)
5. cohabitation

I’m sure there are others, but these are the big ones. People say, “Well, Father X is a very devout and holy priest and I asked him about it and he said it was okay, but what do YOU think?”

Here’s what I think: If you REALLY thought Father X was right, you wouldn’t be getting second opinions! I don’t know who all these “holy and devout” priests are who encourage people to commit or continue to commit sin (here comes the “invicible ignorance” defense, I know) but if people are questioning these priests’ advice, doesn’t that pretty much blow “invincible ignorance” out of the water?

People say, “Well, the priest should know best”, but if he doesn’t… how to correct them without sounding superior or condemning?

Thoughts?

 

[Mike_Dye]

I have encountered this, not just here on the forums, but in real life as well. People have consulted their priests about any or all of the following:

1. masturbation
2. artificial birth control
3. sterilization
4. remarriage after civil divorce (rarely, but I’ve heard it)
5. cohabitation

I’m sure there are others, but these are the big ones. People say, “Well, Father X is a very devout and holy priest and I asked him about it and he said it was okay, but what do YOU think?”

Here’s what I think: If you REALLY thought Father X was right, you wouldn’t be getting second opinions! I don’t know who all these “holy and devout” priests are who encourage people to commit or continue to commit sin (here comes the “invicible ignorance” defense, I know) but if people are questioning these priests’ advice, doesn’t that pretty much blow “invincible ignorance” out of the water?

People say, “Well, the priest should know best”, but if he doesn’t… how to correct them without sounding superior or condemning?

Thoughts?

My thought is just simply give the priest the facts backed up by the teaching Authority of the Church.

 

[Sonic]

Here’s what I think: If you REALLY thought Father X was right, you wouldn’t be getting second opinions! I don’t know who all these “holy and devout” priests are who encourage people to commit or continue to commit sin (here comes the “invicible ignorance” defense, I know) but if people are questioning these priests’ advice, doesn’t that pretty much blow “invincible ignorance” out of the water?

I once had a protestant friend of mine give me a similar story concerning confession. It turned out that he was testing my morality. He wanted to know whether my Catholic morality was real. I suppose he thought I might blindly agree with the fictional priest… despite his advice being wrong. Instead, my friend was in for bit of a great shock. The term “Fraternal Correction” came out… along with questions about who the priest was and possibly contacting the bishop. Of course, I wanted to know all the facts, and quickly countered the bad avice with information from the Cathechism.

For fear of getting anyone in trouble, my friend quickly back-paddled on his story (and it was a real doozy too). I wish people wouldn’t do that.

The thing is, I had suggested my friend make an appointment to meet with a priest to discuss RICA classes. He was interested in confession, and wanted to learn about it. So, naturally I thought the story was real.

 

[bluerose]

My thought is just simply give the priest the facts backed up by the teaching Authority of the Church.

Thanks, but I meant the person who’s asking. This came up once regarding cohabitation… basically this person said that his parish priest said that “normally” it was wrong, but since they were engaged, it wasn’t “that bad”. When I tried to correct him, he bristled and said, “well, FATHER said it was okay!” and in so many words hinted that I thought I was better/smarter/holier than the priest.

I don’t know which is worse… hearing that from a cradle Catholic who SHOULD know better, or from a recent convert who says, “But WHY would Father say that if it isn’t true?”

 

[marybee]

Blue Rose, if you are concerned with a person in such a situation, it would only make sense to talk to that person yourself. I am not sure we can tell you why someone- be it a priest, or a person seeking the priest would do anything.

 

[PennitentMan]

I have encountered this, not just here on the forums, but in real life as well. People have consulted their priests about any or all of the following:

1. masturbation
2. artificial birth control
3. sterilization
4. remarriage after civil divorce (rarely, but I’ve heard it)
5. cohabitation

I’m sure there are others, but these are the big ones. People say, “Well, Father X is a very devout and holy priest and I asked him about it and he said it was okay, but what do YOU think?”

Here’s what I think.
In the above scenario, people post here because they are (mostly) good, honest faithful Catholics who, even though they have been given a form of dispensation from a good priest, they want to make sure they are not putting their souls in danger.

I think humans have a need to be reassured. No given the OK to sin at all, just need to be reassured that they are not alone and it’s going to be okay…hence the myriad of support groups / counselling sessions out there.

Most of the time when people post here it’s because they do not have anyone else to speak to about the issue, except the before-mentioned priest. They are alone with their problems. We are social creatures, we seek out others…and that brings them here.
But, I do think that it’s not always the best thing to do.

Here’s why:
When one post here, the other posters usually don’t know the history of the situation, and I have seen it many times, where, at during the process of trying to find out the history behind the situation, the thread takes several sharp turns. The true circumstances rarely gets 100% brought to light and advise is usually given based upon this.

Also, a lot of the posters here are very conservative Catholics. There’s nothing wrong with this at all. In fact, it’s probably better to be too Conservative than too Liberal, but it seldom lends itself to leeway for certain “special” occasions. Mostly the advise is given straight down the line of the CCC, with no acknowledgement of extenuating circumstances.

My thoughts are if you have sat down and had a long heart-to-heart (or a few of them) with your priest, and he gave you certain advice, that should be enough for you to follow it and not come to an open internet based site for a second opinion.
If your conscience tells you to seek a second opinion, seek another priest and have another heart-to-heart with him.

 

[DL82]

The other factor in this is that sometimes priests have to accept reality, and spiritual directors in particular have to look at the bigger picture, the whole person, rather than getting hung up on a particular issue.

For example, if you said to a priest that you had been struggling with a real urge to rape women since giving up masturbation, he might well suggest that you would be better to masturbate if that urge came to you, but try to do it less and less, and work on the more serious underlying problem in the meantime. On the other hand, it would be easy to phrase that kind of advice as “my priest said masturbation is ok, and isn’t a major sin” and condemn the priest for his understanding of the wider human problem.

 

[Sr_Sally]

My thoughts are if you have sat down and had a long heart-to-heart (or a few of them) with your priest, and he gave you certain advice, that should be enough for you to follow it and not come to an open internet based site for a second opinion.
If your conscience tells you to seek a second opinion, seek another priest and have another heart-to-heart with him.

I absolutely agree. I also think it does cause scandal for people to tell a poster to go against what their priest has told them. Yes, perhaps their priest really IS wrong, but unless we are sure we have all the history, we can never know that. And there is danger to a person’s soul from being disobedient to the legitiment authority above them (their priest) in favor of following what some ‘e-maginary’ people on the internet say! Perhaps just as much danger as doing whatever sinful thing they are asking about.

Some one who begins to doubt their priest’s advice will consult with him less often, listen less to his homilies, go to reconciliations less, etc. Some may indeed find a more Orthodox or more conservative parish, but others may not. And even those that do, may find the drive and inconvience of a farther away parish means that they get to church less often.

Certainly we can continue to counsel people, but I have a very hard time telling someone to do the exact oppposite of what their priest has reccommended. And even to go so far as to say that their priest is wrong, uninformed, hetreodox, or other slanders!

 

[migurl]

I think that a lot of the time, people know what the Church teaches. And by “know” I mean that they have heard it somwhere and are now confused because what they heard from their priest is different from something else they heard. As Catholics, we have a responsility to ourselves and our loved ones to seek out the truth when it comes to our faith. Going to multiple sources is a good thing, it ensures that if you get false info from one source, you can counter it with the correct info from a good source.
As far as extenuating circumstances, we have a duty to explain to people that while we understand that they may be in a difficult spot, if they are doing something sinful, they have to stop. I don’t recall the example someone gave, but there are no excuses to continue sinning. There might be explanations for why it is hard to stop and why one might fall back into sin, but that doesn’t make it any less wrong or any less important to try and change.

 

[PennitentMan]

I think that a lot of the time, people know what the Church teaches. And by “know” I mean that they have heard it somewhere and are now confused because what they heard from their priest is different from something else they heard. As Catholics, we have a responsibly to ourselves and our loved ones to seek out the truth when it comes to our faith. Going to multiple sources is a good thing, it ensures that if you get false info from one source, you can counter it with the correct info from a good source.

That’s true, but one has to be careful as to where one looks for answers.

As far as extenuating circumstances, we have a duty to explain to people that while we understand that they may be in a difficult spot, if they are doing something sinful, they have to stop. I don’t recall the example someone gave, **but there are no excuses **to continue sinning.

And this is why they have to be careful as to where they look for answers…

There might be explanations for why it is hard to stop and why one might fall back into sin, but that doesn’t make it any less wrong or any less important to try and change.

There are explanations and there are also extenuating circumstances that in fact does make things less wrong.
Hence my counselling for potential posters to think carefully before posting. It’s very possible that they will be more confused at the end of a thread than when they started.
Very few of us have official church training and even fewer of us have authority to officially council people.
This website is about personal opinions…we can never replace or refute a priest, we do not have the authority.

 

[migurl]

In the CCC it does not say that a sin is not a sin if_______. The only time a sin is not a sin is in the case of a mortal sin when one of the three conditions are not met. Now, God may have mercy on someone in a particular situation, but one should not opperate under the assumption that “God understands, thereofre I am ok where I am at” We are called to always better ourselves and to pull away from all sin no matter how difficult or how ‘good’ of an excuse we may have. Unless you are refering to mental illnesses, there aren’t situations when a person is only kinda wrong. A mortal sin is a mortal sin no matter what (as long as the 3 conditions are met)

 

[PennitentMan]

In the CCC it does not say that a sin is not a sin if_______. The only time a sin is not a sin is in the case of a mortal sin when one of the three conditions are not met. Now, God may have mercy on someone in a particular situation, but one should not opperate under the assumption that “God understands, thereofre I am ok where I am at” We are called to always better ourselves and to pull away from all sin no matter how difficult or how ‘good’ of an excuse we may have. Unless you are refering to mental illnesses, there aren’t situations when a person is only kinda wrong. A mortal sin is a mortal sin no matter what (as long as the 3 conditions are met)

You have already proven your own argument wrong. Your second sentence starts like this:
“The only time…” Already one point where there are extenuating circumstances.

Also, there are certainly times on the CCC that state that sins can be morally lessened due to certain circumstances.
The point to remember here is that there is a difference between mortal and venial sin. People tend to forget that.

And I agree with you that if we are using it as an excuse, it’s not an excuse …but there is a difference between a serious circumstance in one’s life or just using something as an excuse.

We are called to better ourselves, definately, but life is dynamic. It’s not going to go from 100% sin to 100% sin-free overnight. Life also changes and puts new challenges in our paths.

eg: If my wife is violently ill and passing out, and she can’t get to Sunday Mass because of that, is she comitting mortal sin?

This again is my point.
Very little leaway is give on these boards.

 

[migurl]

If your wife is ill, she is not commiting a sin. It is in the CCC, that if you are ill and can’t make it to mass it isn;t a sin. I am saying, that if ones actions are sinful, there isn’t a time when it becomes ok. A mortal sin, if it qualifies as a mortal sin, is always gravely wrong no matter what else is going on. Again, the 3 conditions have to be met or it isn’t mortal.
BTW, If the 3 conditions are not met, it isn’t a sin-that is not an extenuating circumstance, that is a time when it isn’t a sin because either they didn’t do it willingly, or they didn’t know it was a mortal sin. The third is that you do it despite your knowledge of its sinfulness.

 

[Riley259]

I have encountered this, not just here on the forums, but in real life as well. People have consulted their priests about any or all of the following:

1. masturbation
2. artificial birth control
3. sterilization
4. remarriage after civil divorce (rarely, but I’ve heard it)
5. cohabitation

I’m sure there are others, but these are the big ones. People say, “Well, Father X is a very devout and holy priest and I asked him about it and he said it was okay, but what do YOU think?”

Here’s what I think: If you REALLY thought Father X was right, you wouldn’t be getting second opinions! I don’t know who all these “holy and devout” priests are who encourage people to commit or continue to commit sin (here comes the “invicible ignorance” defense, I know) but if people are questioning these priests’ advice, doesn’t that pretty much blow “invincible ignorance” out of the water?

People say, “Well, the priest should know best”, but if he doesn’t… how to correct them without sounding superior or condemning?

Thoughts?

It just points out that some priests are either ignorant of true Catholic faith or they have willfully decided to dissent from it. I’m glad that some people are checking with more devout Catholics (like those on this forum) because I think they sincerely want to do the right thing and something in their gut has told them that their priest’s advice is wrong and not in line with true Catholic teaching. Good for them - they want to do the right thing!

 

[PennitentMan]

It just points out that some priests are either ignorant of true Catholic faith or they have willfully decided to dissent from it. I’m glad that some people are checking with more devout Catholics (like those on this forum) because I think they sincerely want to do the right thing and something in their gut has told them that their priest’s advice is wrong and not in line with true Catholic teaching. Good for them - they want to do the right thing!

Yes, they want to do the right thing, but my post says that I think they go about it in the wrong fashion.

Maybe I’m making a big assumption, but I don’t think that 95% of te folks who post here have studied Catholic Theology matters for 7 years and have been ordained…have the Holy Spirit called down onto them for their vocation.

We cannot second guess or contradict Priests. They know way more than we do. They understand way more than we do. They have the authority to teach and council, we don’t.
They have powers and graces that we don’t have. And most of all, they have more of the facts of most situations than we do.

If we go about doing this, we turn this website into just another protestant board where we argue over personal interpretations of Jesus.

 

[marybee]

It just points out that some priests are either ignorant of true Catholic faith or they have willfully decided to dissent from it. I’m glad that some people are checking with more devout Catholics (like those on this forum) because I think they sincerely want to do the right thing and something in their gut has told them that their priest’s advice is wrong and not in line with true Catholic teaching. Good for them - they want to do the right thing!

I also agree with PM, they consider the “big picture” and consider all things concerned with whatever the issue. Sometimes there are no easy answers to problems. I don’t think everything is as cut and dry as everyone thinks it is. Also, a priest may say under the circumstances, it may not be a mortal sin, that is different than giving someone permission to sin. But I know when there are poeple that start with, “under the circumstances…” there are a ton of posters that jump all over it and say the Truth is not subjective.

 

[migurl]

Unfortunatly, a lot of priest are inncorect about things. For example, a priest told my mother that the use of contraception was between her and God. This isn’t true. It is a mortal sin to use contraception and there are no exceptions. This preist led my mother astray. No one here claims to have special training or anything, but some of us have asked these questions on our own and found the answers in encyclicals, the CCC or some other approved and correct source that has been checked and rechecked to make sure it is in line with the Catholic Church. Some have gone straight to Canon Law and the Vatican Documents to find the right answers. It is unfortunate that there are spiritual leaders who don’t teach what the Church teaches for whatever reason.

 

[migurl]

relativism is one of the worst things out there. Absolute truth exists- whether one believes it or not doesn’t change what the truth is.

 

[marybee]

Unfortunatly, a lot of priest are inncorect about things. For example, a priest told my mother that the use of contraception was between her and God. This isn’t true. It is a mortal sin to use contraception and there are no exceptions. This preist led my mother astray. No one here claims to have special training or anything, but some of us have asked these questions on our own and found the answers in encyclicals, the CCC or some other approved and correct source that has been checked and rechecked to make sure it is in line with the Catholic Church. Some have gone straight to Canon Law and the Vatican Documents to find the right answers. It is unfortunate that there are spiritual leaders who don’t teach what the Church teaches for whatever reason.

That is between your mother and God! Who else would it be between? Doesn’t make it any less wrong. Secondly, there are plenty of debates about the interpretation of the CCC, not only that but it does somewhat differ from past CCCs. Go look at the thousands of posts on infant baptism, people call JP2 a heretic and so forth. There are broad and narrow interpretation of the Bible AND of the CCC. So all things must be considered. Thirdly, sometimes one must choose between the lesser of evils. A great example is between mildly pro choice candidates and hard core pro choice candidates, if both run.

 

[setter]

Yes, they want to do the right thing, but my post says that I think they go about it in the wrong fashion.

Maybe I’m making a big assumption, but I don’t think that 95% of te folks who post here have studied Catholic Theology matters for 7 years and have been ordained…have the Holy Spirit called down onto them for their vocation.

What you may not realize, is that the poor seminary training that many gray head priests received is a big part of the problem. Being learned in theological and moral matters is one thing, it is a totally different matter to accept and teach the truth in all matters of faith and morals.

We cannot second guess or contradict Priests. They know way more than we do. They understand way more than we do. They have the authority to teach and council, we don’t.
They have powers and graces that we don’t have. And most of all, they have more of the facts of most situations than we do.

No guess work here, only the facts of what the Church teaches. If any priest teaches and counsels in contradiction to what the Church teaches in matters of faith and morals, then that priest is not acting in the charism of his sacred vows, and should be corrected for sake of his ministry to souls and accountability before God. Period.

If we go about doing this, we turn this website into just another protestant board where we argue over personal interpretations of Jesus.

It is a matter of presenting and allowing the teaching of the Church to speak authoritatively for itself.