If a married person has HIV--should condoms be permitted?

[jmcrae]

In a case like this, the couple should remain celibate.

Amen.

If Mary and Joseph could do it, so can we all, if necessary. There is much more to a good marriage than just sex.

 

[CRW]

Some Bishops say, ‘yes,’ most say ‘no.’ What do you say? This was a hot topic today on Relevant Radio. My thoughts–hmmm…if someone contracted AIDS/HIV due to a blood transfusion, would God not feel that this person deserves mercy? And, would God expect that person to be open to life through consummation in the marriage, if it meant the baby would be born to this couple with the potential of having HIV?

I dunno…it’s tough! What’s your thoughts? Is it immoral and a mortal sin to use a condom to protect against HIV in such a situation? I believe that condoms don’t prevent the transmission of HIV…I think they just lessen the chances…

Look forward to your thoughts, everyone.

First condoms and all forms of birth control are not acceptable for Catholics.

Second, for a Catholic marriage to be valid it must be consummated.

Third, the first and second conditions noted above make this marriage impossible, IMHO.

 

[Wammy101]

Amen.

There is much more to a good marriage than just sex.

Yeah… But it helps. My parents had (have) a very sexually active marriage, but only 2 kids, and almost never fighted, so what could be so wrong?
If your wondering how i know, i just do.
Cya form the very happy
Wammy

 

[hasikelee]

I am not saying you are lying. I am saying that your source (the website you directed me to) has a powerful incentive to use the data most favorable to its cause and from my experience there’s a tendency to do that.

I am not calling you a liar.

Kendy

I’m confused? The information presented was scientific and deals with specific medical facts. The fact is, viruses are the smallest acellular organism. That fact can be found in any textbook from grade-school science onwards.

The fact is, you can take a condom and measure how wide the holes are in the latex. And you can take the HIV material and measure how big it is.

Declaring the source as biased is simply a way to avoid science. The source in this situation didn’t make up the size of HIV.

 

[Kendy]

I’m confused? The information presented was scientific and deals with specific medical facts. The fact is, viruses are the smallest acellular organism. That fact can be found in any textbook from grade-school science onwards.

The fact is, you can take a condom and measure how wide the holes are in the latex. And you can take the HIV material and measure how big it is.

Declaring the source as biased is simply a way to avoid science. The source in this situation didn’t make up the size of HIV.

The other well-documented fact is that condoms when used properly significantly reduce (not eliminate) the incidence of HIV. The other well-documented fact is that the rate of HIV among gay men was severely reduced by the use of condoms, not through chastity and monogamy. None of this of course justifies pre-marital sex or homosexual behavior, but I just hate it when the pro-life camp keeps ignoring these facts. Saying condoms don’t work is like saying that my internet doesn’t work because it’s down occasionally.

I am particularly irriated about this because there was a broadcast on relevant radio this morning where the woman was complaining about the development of a vaccine for HPV rather than promoting abstinence. As if finding scientific improvements to protect health was sinful. Do people really think that they are just having more sex in Africa and that’s why they have such high incidences of HIV? The truth is they are having a lot more unprotected sex.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

The other well-documented fact is that condoms when used properly significantly reduce (not eliminate) the incidence of HIV. The other well-documented fact is that the rate of HIV among gay men was severely reduced by the use of condoms, not through chastity and monogamy. None of this of course justifies pre-marital sex or homosexual behavior, but I just hate it when the pro-life camp keeps ignoring these facts. Saying condoms don’t work is like saying that my internet doesn’t work because it’s down occasionally.

I am particularly irriated about this because there was a broadcast on relevant radio this morning where the woman was complaining about the development of a vaccine for HPV rather than promoting abstinence. As if finding scientific improvements to protect health was sinful. Do people really think that they are just having more sex in Africa and that’s why they have such high incidences of HIV? The truth is they are having a lot more unprotected sex.

Kendy

yes it really would be nice if men would keep their Willy Whackers in their pants…it really would help cut down on the cases of Aids and many other STD’s

Why is HIV more widespread in Africa than elsewhere in the world?

No-one really knows the full answer to this question. However we do know there are many factors that influence the rate at which HIV is transmitted. Such factors include poverty; social instability; gender inequality; patterns of sexual networking (especially the prevalence of concurrent relationships); sexual violence; other sexually transmitted infections (which facilitate HIV transmission); lack of male circumcision; high mobility; rapid urbanisation and modernisation; and ineffective leadership during critical periods in the epidemic’s spread. Some scientists believe that differences between HIV subtypes also have an effect on transmission rates.4, 5
avert.org/aids-africa-questions-1.htm#q5

 

[Kendy]

I’m confused? The information presented was scientific and deals with specific medical facts. The fact is, viruses are the smallest acellular organism. That fact can be found in any textbook from grade-school science onwards.

The fact is, you can take a condom and measure how wide the holes are in the latex. And you can take the HIV material and measure how big it is.

Declaring the source as biased is simply a way to avoid science. The source in this situation didn’t make up the size of HIV.

I googled your condoms leak theory and found that that study was repudiated in 1994 by the CDC as well as other sources. Apparently, not before the Vatican got a hold of the information and started spreading it as a google search will reveal.

Anyway, Here’s how the Center for Disease Control responded to the condoms leak research.

righto.com/theories/condoms.html

One scientific study can say a lot of things (and if it convenient than why look at others), but what matters scientifically are the conclusions based on many studies. And the consensus among doctors is that condoms and better than no condoms when HIV is present. Of course, as Catholics we would say that abstinence is better than condoms. This is a true statement. However, saying that condoms don’t work is a lie.

Kendy

 

[jmcrae]

yes it really would be nice if men would keep their Willy Whackers in their pants…it really would help cut down on the cases of Aids and many other STD’s.

While this is factually accurate, I take exception to this kind of language. We don’t like it when men make up “cute” nicknames for our body parts; let’s please do to others as we would have them do to us.

 

[Kendy]

yes it really would be nice if men would keep their Willy Whackers in their pants…it really would help cut down on the cases of Aids and many other STD’s

Why is HIV more widespread in Africa than elsewhere in the world?

No-one really knows the full answer to this question. However we do know there are many factors that influence the rate at which HIV is transmitted. Such factors include poverty; social instability; gender inequality; patterns of sexual networking (especially the prevalence of concurrent relationships); sexual violence; other sexually transmitted infections (which facilitate HIV transmission); lack of male circumcision; high mobility; rapid urbanisation and modernisation; and ineffective leadership during critical periods in the epidemic’s spread. Some scientists believe that differences between HIV subtypes also have an effect on transmission rates.4, 5
avert.org/aids-africa-questions-1.htm#q5

One of the well-acknowledged factors that your list fails to include is a widespread resistance to use condoms. Many African men believe that condom use makes them less manly or have gotten misinformation about condoms due to tribal suspicion. This factor cannot be excluded.

Kendy

 

[Karin]

While this is factually accurate, I take exception to this kind of language. We don’t like it when men make up “cute” nicknames for our body parts; let’s please do to others as we would have them do to us.

My humble apologies…let me rephrase my sentence then so no man will get offended!

yes it really would be nice if men would keep their penis in their pants…it really would help cut down on the cases of Aids and many other STD’s

Also as a side note…I have no issues with men giving “cute” names to my body parts**

 

[jmcrae]

Thank you, that is a definite improvement.

 

[Karin]

Thank you, that is a definite improvement.

your welcome

 

[BeeSweet]

From The Case Against Comdoms by Alfonso Cardinal Lopez Trujillo and Brian Clowes, Ph.D.:

"The Philippines and Thailand
The second real-life example of how condoms fail to stop the spread of HIV/AIDS is presented by the Philippines and Thailand, two Southeastern Asian nations with approximately the same populations.
In 1984, the first case of HIV was detected in both these nations. By 1987, Thailand had 112 cases of AIDS, and the Philippines had 135 cases. In 1991, The World Health Organization predicted that, by 1999, Thailand would have suffered 70,000 deaths from the disease, and the Philippines would have lost 85,000 people.
In 1991, both nations took concrete and comprehensive measures against the spread of the HIV virus - but in completely different directions.
The Thai Minister of Health eneacted a ‘100% Condom Use Program.’ All brothels were required to have supplies of comdoms, and condom vending machines were installed in all supermarkets, bars, restaurants, and other public gathering places. This program was widely accepted and implemented by the people of Thailand.
Two years later, Rene Bullecer, M.D. received authorization from the Catholic Bishops Conference of the Phlippines (CBCP) to establish the organization AIDS-Free Philippines as its official program to combat HIV/AIDS nationwide. The government signed on to this effort as well.
By the end of 2003, the disparity in the effectiveness of both types of programs had become glaringly obvious as shown in this table: [46]

Adults and Children Living with HIV
Thailand 570,000
Philippines 9,000

AIDS Deaths in 2003
Thailand 58,000
Philippines 500

Population
Thailand 62,8333,000
Philippines 79,999,000
**
HIV Infection Rates Per Million**
Thailand 9,072
Philppines 113

This table shows that the Thai HIV infection rate is eighty times higher than the Filipino HIV infection rate.
The current rate of HIV infection in the United States, with all of our sex education, all of our sexual freedom, all of our advanced antiviral drugs, and all of our billions of condoms, is 3,900 per million, thirty times higher than in the Philippines[47].
What lesson does this teach us?
USAID has concluded that the reason that the Philippines has such a low incidence of HIV/AIDS is that youth have a very high rate of abstinence and married people largely remain faithful to their spouses. the USAID report grudgingly admitted that ‘The Catholic Church must be credited with influencing sexual behavior.’ [48]"

You can purchase a copy of this book from Human Life International @ www.hli.org or click here: tinyurl.com/t8z72

It’s a real eye-opener for anyone who believes that condoms are a safe measure in preventing HIV infection. They’re not. Often they’re not stored properly, often they’re not used properly, this on top of the fact they have allowable failure rates, so right now on a grocery store shelf near you is a condom that will not do what it’s supposed to do. For the church to tell us we would be safe using them would be a lie.

 

[Karin]

Bee Sweet—
thank you for such an AWESOME post!

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Isn’t Uganda virtually the only country in Africa where the AIDS rate has been decreasing, due to policies of abstinence, and without condoms?

IMO, condoms and birth control (in which I include not just barrier methods but abortificients and also abortion) have caused more misery, sin and death than any single person or event in history. Yes, more deaths than the Black Death (Bubonic plague). More deaths than the influenza pandemic of 1918-1920. More deaths than the millions killed in Stalin’s purges and communist China. And more MISERY and SIN than anything, anywhere. This legalized death and powerful occasion of sin has caused more breakdown in morality than anything. . .more than war, more than earthquake, famine, or other catastrophe.

It amazes me that people will point fingers at X number of deaths which THEY attribute to “Christianity” and will ignore the physical and the SPIRITUAL deaths caused by the whole birth control mentality. In fact, they rejoice at how they have “FREED WOMEN” and made the lives of women and men BETTER. . .at the expense of the unborn above all, and the men and women scarred for life and perhaps destined for eternal damnation because of that “freedom”. . .

Poppycock.

 

[BeeSweet]

Bee Sweet—
thank you for such an AWESOME post!

Thanks for the kudos! Golly, how I LOVE kudos!
:bounce:

Isn’t Uganda virtually the only country in Africa where the AIDS rate has been decreasing, due to policies of abstinence, and without condoms?

Yes, in my quote above, the excerpt stated the Philippines and Thailand were the second real-life example of how condoms fail at protecting against HIV/AIDS. The first example cited was Uganda, and their ABC program, or Abstain from sex before marriage, Be faithful to your partner, and use Condoms if you do not practice absinance or fidelity.

I really recommend this book, it’s only 8 bucks.

 

[jmcrae]

Isn’t Uganda virtually the only country in Africa where the AIDS rate has been decreasing, due to policies of abstinence, and without condoms?

Uganda is certainly an excellent example to the whole world. I believe that they were the first to implement these policies, but others have since begun to follow their example, with the same excellent results.

Abstinence education and promotion of fidelity in marriage go a lot further in preventing all manner of social ills, not just AIDS. They will come out strong as leaders in the world community at the end of all of this, with a generation of kids who’ve been brought up in safe and stable homes - something we haven’t seen in North America in a really long time.

 

[AndyF]

Some Bishops say, ‘yes,’ most say ‘no.’ What do you say? This was a hot topic today on Relevant Radio. My thoughts–hmmm…if someone contracted AIDS/HIV due to a blood transfusion, would God not feel that this person deserves mercy? And, would God expect that person to be open to life through consummation in the marriage, if it meant the baby would be born to this couple with the potential of having HIV?

I dunno…it’s tough! What’s your thoughts? Is it immoral and a mortal sin to use a condom to protect against HIV in such a situation? I believe that condoms don’t prevent the transmission of HIV…I think they just lessen the chances…

Look forward to your thoughts, everyone.

Yes. They are permitted for health reasons and as long as the risks are known.

AndyF

 

[Karin]

Yes. They are permitted for health reasons and as long as the risks are known.

AndyF

WHAT???
Please link to a reputable source that says the Church allows condom use…becuase last time i checked THEY DO NOT!

 

[AndyF]

WHAT???
Please link to a reputable source that says the Church allows condom use…becuase last time i checked THEY DO NOT!

I understand why some would be taken aback in horror at the proposition. The device hasn’t gotten good rap due to it’s use as a pregnancy preventative and in fornication these past centuries.

But that isn’t always the case. A married couple where one individual is a hymophiliac, and who has just contacted aids in a bad blood transfusion is in a difficult situation. Nowhere does God give us instruction that the holy act of sexual intercourse should be stopped in such a situation, and many situations arise where pregnancy is not likely to occur anyway and still the act is sanctioned. God also gives us the medical community and sends these messengers and various devices to assist us as well.

So within the confines of the marriage, and under the supervision of a qualified doctor I don’t see why it shouldn’t be used. In fact condoms could be of use in situations of urinary infections or after operations. Of course there is always the option of abstaining.

But your right in that it makes us feel uneasy about it’s use altogeather, and it does me, as it is intrinsically not good, as it interferes with the sexual act as a sanctity. But there are many medical contraptions that interfere with many functions, but they are there to assist the quality of life. So you may be correct and probably are and we are to abide by the law, but I can’t see why it couldn’t be used in special medical cases and in moral circumstances. We will be very uncomfortable with this lion in our living room as it were.

My guess is that it’s in the process Sententia Fidei Proxima at this time, and we should see it has De Fide soon, not that I’m anxious as I feel it’s an unwelcome guest. Curiously, I’m more restrictive than these headlines predict, as I don’t see any wording as regards to restriction of it’s use within marriage.

AndyF

Catholic Church to Ease Ban on Condom Use
dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1979145,00.html

** Is the Catholic Church rethinking its anti-condom dogma?**
aidsmap.com/en/news/5e1558cf-c8e8-43ae-9826-456d5ecbf82b.asp?type=preview