If a married person has HIV--should condoms be permitted?

[MilesXpisti]

To Faith1960, I would say the following:

There is never an excuse to do a morally incorrect thing. Not ever. Arguing between two evils is like arguing over whether you’re going to commit suicide by hanging yourself or taking a bullet to the head. The end result is the same, only the former is a little cleaner than the other.

Are you seriously asking that, if my son were engaged in premarital sex, would I want him to use a condom? Absolutely not. Does he run the chance of getting an STD or becoming a parent? Could he possibly die from something he could contract in this regard? Absolutely. But it’s better that he die with a soul in a state of grace than to live a thousand years in sin and error. Abraham understood that when he bound Isaac and prepared to sacrifice him as God had commanded. My generation has to learn the lesson that yours apparently never did: our actions must be measure against what God has commanded, there are consequences to our actions and those consequences cannot be abrogated by expedience or social pressures. We are conscious beings before God and we have choices we have to make. Whatever we do, we have to answer for, just as we will when we stand before God when we leave this world. We cannot make ourselves party to the sin of another even to protect them, for in that regard we would show that we love them more than Christ, Who said that anyone that loves another more than Him is not worthy of Him. (cf. Secundum Matthæum 10, 37-38)

 

[Faith1960]

Are you seriously asking that, if my son were engaged in premarital sex, would I want him to use a condom? Absolutely not. Does he run the chance of getting an STD or becoming a parent? Could he possibly die from something he could contract in this regard? Absolutely. )

Wow.

 

[Karin]

To Faith1960, I would say the following:

There is never an excuse to do a morally incorrect thing. Not ever. Arguing between two evils is like arguing over whether you’re going to commit suicide by hanging yourself or taking a bullet to the head. The end result is the same, only the former is a little cleaner than the other.

Are you seriously asking that, if my son were engaged in premarital sex, would I want him to use a condom? Absolutely not. Does he run the chance of getting an STD or becoming a parent? Could he possibly die from something he could contract in this regard? Absolutely. But it’s better that he die with a soul in a state of grace than to live a thousand years in sin and error. Abraham understood that when he bound Isaac and prepared to sacrifice him as God had commanded. My generation has to learn the lesson that yours apparently never did: our actions must be measure against what God has commanded, there are consequences to our actions and those consequences cannot be abrogated by expedience or social pressures. We are conscious beings before God and we have choices we have to make. Whatever we do, we have to answer for, just as we will when we stand before God when we leave this world. We cannot make ourselves party to the sin of another even to protect them, for in that regard we would show that we love them more than Christ, Who said that anyone that loves another more than Him is not worthy of Him. (cf. Secundum Matthæum 10, 37-38)

WOW is right…
what do we have confession for…if not for the forgivness of our sins?

 

[jmcrae]

WOW is right…
what do we have confession for…if not for the forgivness of our sins?

We also have to repent and turn away from our sins, which means, quit doing them.

We should never compound one sin with a second sin, and we should never encourage our children to do that, either.

 

[Karin]

We also have to repent and turn away from our sins, which means, quit doing them.

no really
and are you saying that someone who uses condoms can not repent and turn away from their sin(s)???

We should never compound one sin with a second sin, and we should never encourage our children to do that, either.

correct…but if someone does they can repent and confess their sins…totally agree again…I do not encourage this in my kids, but they do know that if they do sin even repeatedly and truly repent and turn away from those sins they can be saved and forgiven!

 

[jmcrae]

no really
and are you saying that someone who uses condoms can not repent and turn away from their sin(s)???

If they pack a condom with them, the sin goes from venial to mortal, because there is prior intent to commit the act. Also, the person who gave him the condom has a share in his sin, because they condone and encourage it, rather than give a clear and unmistakable message against it.

I do not encourage this in my kids, but they do know that if they do sin even repeatedly and truly repent and turn away from those sins they can be saved and forgiven!

Of course they can - and this is what parents need to tell their kids. They should be encouraging their kids to be sorry for their sins and go to Confession, intending never to commit that sin again.

Rather than giving them condoms “just in case.”

It is better to kill the body and save the soul, rather than save the body without regard for the soul.

 

[MilesXpisti]

It is better to kill the body and save the soul, rather than save the body without regard for the soul.

Too right. Though it seems to be the opinion of many that one can have the cake and eat it too. Christ commanded that we be on side of the line or the other and to correct, in the spirit of orthodoxy and brotherhood, our behavior and that of our brethren. It puts one in a difficult position, especially with those of whom we desperately want love and acceptance, such as our family, but it is our duty nonetheless.

 

[fix]

It’s YOUR choice and it’s MY choice but abstaining isn’t EVERYONE’S choice.

Yes, that is true, but such choices are not morally good simply because one choose them. Moral acts are good, bad , or neutral. Morality is not relative meaning we each have no authority to reinvent what is right and what is wrong.

 

[setter]

My only point is that if one were to ignore the moral implications of their sexual misconduct then I would hope that they would at least consider ways in which they could MINIMIZE harm to themselves or other people involve.

Kendy

Interesting and revealing that a Catholic would ever consider the use of evil means, whatever the circumstance, in the absence of the lesser of two evils criteria.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Interesting and revealing that a Catholic would ever consider the use of evil means, whatever the circumstance, in the absence of the lesser of two evils criteria.

Interesting? I call it common. But what are we to expect when so many parish homilies extol social permissiveness, political correctness and moral expedience instead of orthodoxy and heroic endurance of faith in the face of the rising tide? Interesting? Tragic would be a better estimation.

 

[setter]

Originally Posted by MilesXpisti

Are you seriously asking that, if my son were engaged in premarital sex, would I want him to use a condom? Absolutely not. Does he run the chance of getting an STD or becoming a parent? Could he possibly die from something he could contract in this regard? Absolutely. )

Wow.

WOW is right…
what do we have confession for…if not for the forgivness of our sins?

The only “WOW” factor that should impress a serious believer is the prospect of Jesus on one’s personal judgment day saying to those who persisted in committing evil, “And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’” Matthew 7:23

Jesus did not mince words when it came to the consequences of not shunning evil:

“Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.” Matthew 13: 40-43

And St. Paul:

“Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.” 1 Corinthians 6:18

 

[Kendy]

Interesting? I call it common. But what are we to expect when so many parish homilies extol social permissiveness, political correctness and moral expedience instead of orthodoxy and heroic endurance of faith in the face of the rising tide? Interesting? Tragic would be a better estimation.

MilesXpisti and Setter,

I think it’s a little funny that you consider me morally permissive and politically correct since most of the time when I am around catholics, I am the most conservative and orthodox one in the room . Anywho, this is quite silly and we are talking circles at each other. I only one to remind you however, that no one has posted a message in favor of non-marital sex; no one has denied that it is a moral evil.

Kendy

 

[CRW]

MilesXpisti and Setter,

I think it’s a little funny that you consider me morally permissive and politically correct since most of the time when I am around catholics, I am the most conservative and orthodox one in the room . Anywho, this is quite silly and we are talking circles at each other. I only one to remind you however, that no one has posted a message in favor of non-marital sex; no one has denied that it is a moral evil.

Kendy

MilesXpist:

i
Interesting? I call it common. But what are we to expect when so many parish homilies extol social permissiveness, political correctness and moral expedience instead of orthodoxy and heroic endurance of faith in the face of the rising tide? Interesting? Tragic would be a better estimation

Our Church must be blessed because our parish has never extol social permissiveness, PC, and especially non-marital sex. A strong Life Teen that teaches all issues concerning todays moral issues. It seems that some of our people complain that the subject is getting old, week after week. Our priests also are strong Pro Life and support Church, as well as, local functions to stop abortion.

It looks like Rome is seriously considering authorizing the use of condoms for married couples with HIV/Aids. I can see the liberal media having a ball with this issue.

I would actually be interested in a Poll on how many priest glorify social permissiveness and PC in there homilies. I would pray that it is small. God Bless

 

[setter]

MilesXpisti and Setter,

I think it’s a little funny that you consider me morally permissive and politically correct since most of the time when I am around catholics, I am the most conservative and orthodox one in the room .

Stacked against a confirmed saint, I am sorely lacking in virtue and holiness.

Anywho, this is quite silly and we are talking circles at each other. I only one to remind you however, that no one has posted a message in favor of non-marital sex; no one has denied that it is a moral evil.

Kendy

I see that you are still talking around the core point of contention against your argument:

Originally Posted by **setter **
Interesting and revealing that a Catholic would ever consider the use of evil means, whatever the circumstance, in the absence of the lesser of two evils criteria.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

It looks like Rome is seriously considering authorizing the use of condoms for married couples with HIV/Aids. I can see the liberal media having a ball with this issue.

Only if you believe the media spin on it. From what I have seen Rome has stated in no uncertain terms that this is not up for consideration.

 

[MilesXpisti]

Only if you believe the media spin on it. From what I have seen Rome has stated in no uncertain terms that this is not up for consideration.

As have I…in fact I’ve not seen anything about this since around June. Once Rome made it clear that it was not the case, it seemed that it sorta died down.

 

[Valke2]

Some Bishops say, ‘yes,’ most say ‘no.’ What do you say? This was a hot topic today on Relevant Radio. My thoughts–hmmm…if someone contracted AIDS/HIV due to a blood transfusion, would God not feel that this person deserves mercy? And, would God expect that person to be open to life through consummation in the marriage, if it meant the baby would be born to this couple with the potential of having HIV?

I dunno…it’s tough! What’s your thoughts? Is it immoral and a mortal sin to use a condom to protect against HIV in such a situation? I believe that condoms don’t prevent the transmission of HIV…I think they just lessen the chances…

Look forward to your thoughts, everyone.

I think this highlights the need for the Church to redefine mortal sin in this area. (But I’m not catholic).

 

[MilesXpisti]

I think this highlights the need for the Church to redefine mortal sin in this area. (But I’m not catholic).

This is what I had the hardest time dealing with while I was still a Protestant: the Church does not have the ability to redefine what is a sin and what’s not. It can clarify it through a means of Magisterium, but it can’t define something as a sin, then come back later say that it’s not. It’s like someone having sex reassignment surgery; they can take on the appearance and perform a crude simulation of their preferred gender’s sexuality but in their DNA, where it ultimately counts, they’re still what they were born.

 

[Kendy]

Stacked against a confirmed saint, I am sorely lacking in virtue and holiness.

I see that you are still talking around the core point of contention against your argument:

I am not talking around anything. I have said very clearly that I think it’s worst to have illicit sex without a condom than it is to do so with a condom because of the health risks. I am not condoning the sex.

Kendy

 

[whatevergirl]

For me, the issue isn’t if condoms are effective…the issue is…can condoms give us a conscience, and no…condoms, as one poster said…really are just effective at giving people a false sense of security…so they can do what they please… Whether it’s having premarital sex, or in this situation…we have to ask ourselves…what would Christ want us to do? You just simply cannot put a bandaid on immorality.