If a murderer baptizes their victim, would it be valid?

[Nemorivaga]

A hypothetical situation:
A mother intends to kill her newborn child. Before doing so, she drips some water on the child’s forehead, and says “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Then she kills it. Is the baptism valid? Would the baby be able to receive a Catholic burial? What if the mother doesn’t believe in God, but baptizes the baby just in case there is a God? Would the baptism still be valid? Also, what if she doesn’t baptize the child? Would it still go to heaven? And if it would go to heaven anyway, then what difference does it make whether she baptizes it or not? I mean, would a child who’s been baptized be more happy in Heaven than a child who’s not been baptized?
PS
Don’t worry, I don’t have children and I’m not able to have any (thank God).
PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

 

[His_helpmeet]

A hypothetical situation:
A mother intends to kill her newborn child. Before doing so, she drips some water on the child’s forehead, and says “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Then she kills it. Is the baptism valid? Would the baby be able to receive a Catholic burial? What if the mother doesn’t believe in God, but baptizes the baby just in case there is a God? Would the baptism still be valid? Also, what if she doesn’t baptize the child? Would it still go to heaven? And if it would go to heaven anyway, then what difference does it make whether she baptizes it or not? I mean, would a child who’s been baptized be more happy in Heaven than a child who’s not been baptized?
PS
Don’t worry, I don’t have children and I’m not able to have any (thank God).
PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

The Baptism would still be valid. One does not even have to believe in God to baptize; the only intent is that one do what the Church teaches in the case of a dire emergency.

It is evil to kill another person because the act of killing is intrinsically evil. The ends cannot ever justify the means.

 

[HelenRose]

A hypothetical situation:
A mother intends to kill her newborn child. Before doing so, she drips some water on the child’s forehead, and says “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Then she kills it. Is the baptism valid? Would the baby be able to receive a Catholic burial? What if the mother doesn’t believe in God, but baptizes the baby just in case there is a God? Would the baptism still be valid? Also, what if she doesn’t baptize the child? Would it still go to heaven? And if it would go to heaven anyway, then what difference does it make whether she baptizes it or not? I mean, would a child who’s been baptized be more happy in Heaven than a child who’s not been baptized?
PS
Don’t worry, I don’t have children and I’m not able to have any (thank God).
PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

I will assume that you do disagree with this train of thought.

First of all. Life is precious in and of its self. Suffering can not be a capital offense. No one can judge what the future of a child will be. Some of greatest men and women have come from dreadful circumstances. It is real easy to walk down the path of mercy killing. If it is all right to abort an unborn child who may or may not suffer, it is all right to kill a child that has been born. If it is all right to kill a 2 week old baby who may or may not suffer in life, it is all right to kill a one year old child. Perhaps it would be all right to mass kill starving children in a third world country. We can not travel down this evil path.

Mercy killing is one expression and its close relative is “eugenics” - the word that gave Hitler the plan to exterminate millions of people.
Margaret Sanger is another individual whose concepts of eugenics has given rise to the abortion of countless minority babies.

As far as the baptism is concerned, I would think the it is as valid as any baptism given to a child that is danger of death. But I would assume that a mother who would do that is insane.

No human being can possibly know the future of any child.

 

[MaryT777]

A hypothetical situation:
A mother intends to kill her newborn child. Before doing so, she drips some water on the child’s forehead, and says “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Then she kills it. Is the baptism valid? Would the baby be able to receive a Catholic burial? What if the mother doesn’t believe in God, but baptizes the baby just in case there is a God? Would the baptism still be valid? Also, what if she doesn’t baptize the child? Would it still go to heaven? And if it would go to heaven anyway, then what difference does it make whether she baptizes it or not? I mean, would a child who’s been baptized be more happy in Heaven than a child who’s not been baptized?
PS
Don’t worry, I don’t have children and I’m not able to have any (thank God).
PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

If someone thinks the a child should not be born into this world the obvious answer is to be celibate and not have any children. Hmmmm…

Mary.

 

[R_H_Benson]

PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

The Church does not teach definitively that the souls of unbaptized aborted babies go to heaven. The ordinary means of salvation comes through the graces of the sacrament of Baptism. Outside of this, we can hope for God’s mercy for aborted children, but we cannot presume.

 

[lucymeadhbh]

A hypothetical situation:
A mother intends to kill her newborn child. Before doing so, she drips some water on the child’s forehead, and says “I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Then she kills it. Is the baptism valid? Would the baby be able to receive a Catholic burial? What if the mother doesn’t believe in God, but baptizes the baby just in case there is a God? Would the baptism still be valid? Also, what if she doesn’t baptize the child? Would it still go to heaven? And if it would go to heaven anyway, then what difference does it make whether she baptizes it or not? I mean, would a child who’s been baptized be more happy in Heaven than a child who’s not been baptized?
PS
Don’t worry, I don’t have children and I’m not able to have any (thank God).
PPS
Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in? I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists? But that’s not the point here. I know I’m wrong…

Interesting, from the point of view of belief. If a woman baptises her child on the off chance there is a God, doesn’t that suggest that she at least open to the idea of faith?
And therefore, surely she would not wish to damn her soul by then murdering her child.

From the point of view of abortion, I see what you are getting at, but I believe that Heaven is the best place for us,when we are called. Aside from the fact of the act of an abortion, this idea that abortion is doing the child a favour (becoming more and more prevalent) is so contrary to the way God wants us to think. Thinking you have a right to decide if another person is “better off”, is just so wrong, I think.

 

[Nemorivaga]

Interesting, from the point of view of belief. If a woman baptises her child on the off chance there is a God, doesn’t that suggest that she at least open to the idea of faith?
And therefore, surely she would not wish to damn her soul by then murdering her child.

Well, she can always confess afterwards and still go to heaven. And even if she goes to hell - at least the baby’s in heaven! I think a good mother should sacrifice herself for the child’s benefit. But it’s a terrible thing for a mother to have to kill her child, especially if she really wanted one… And going to jail sucks too. That’s why it’s better not to have a child in the first place!

 

[Gorgias]

Well, she can always confess afterwards and still go to heaven.

Not if her plan all along was “baptize baby; kill baby; go to confession.” That’s called the sin of ‘presumption’.

But it’s a terrible thing for a mother to have to kill her child, especially if she really wanted one

Why would a mother ‘have to kill’ her child?

That’s why it’s better not to have a child in the first place!

No… that’s why it’s better to have a child and love it and raise it to love God.

 

[Gorgias]

Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about abortion. How people say that it’s terribly evil. But really, if the aborted child goes straight to Heaven, isn’t it the best thing for it, considering the state that the world is in?

No – the best thing for any person is the opportunity to live their lives in God’s love; the best thing is being able to choose to follow God. By the standard you’re outlining here, Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot are the world’s greatest saints, not the world’s greatest monsters… :nope:

I mean, why is the mother who kills her child before or after it was born more evil than the mother who lets it grow up, i.e. be miserable (and a child whose parents are not able to take care of it is almost guaranteed be miserable), sin, and probably go to Hell in the end if Hell exists?

“almost guaranteed to be miserable”? That’s quite a presumption! “Probably go to hell”? That’s even greater a presumption!

You’re making unsupportable claims; that’s what’s clouding your judgment here.

 

[infonote]

There is also the fact that by killing the baby, another baby may end up being single for the rest of their lives, as they could not find their soulmate.

No – the best thing for any person is the opportunity to live their lives in God’s love; the best thing is being able to choose to follow God. By the standard you’re outlining here, Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot are the world’s greatest saints, not the world’s greatest monsters… :nope:

“almost guaranteed to be miserable”? That’s quite a presumption! “Probably go to hell”? That’s even greater a presumption!

You’re making unsupportable claims; that’s what’s clouding your judgment here.

 

[Gorgias]

There is also the fact that by killing the baby, another baby may end up being single for the rest of their lives, as they could not find their soulmate.

Ouch. No. :nope:

The notion of a ‘soulmate’ is not a Christian notion – it’s a pagan / New Age one. Think of it this way: there are billions of people alive right now, and billions who have either already died or not yet been born. Are you really saying that there’s only one person meant for you? Pretty bad odds, there…

No: God did not create one person for you: He gave you the capacity to love, and the freedom to choose with whom you would bind yourself in the covenant of marriage. Find a person with whom you can make that commitment, and make that marriage work. In fact, realize that you’ll have to work on it – every day – in order for your marriage to survive and flourish. Don’t presume that “there’s only one person in the universe for me” and mistakenly assume that when you find that person, all will be right in the world and you’ll live happily ever after.

 

[infonote]

Hmm, ok, guess I have still a lot of things to learn about the Catholic faith.
I do not believe in destiny, just that God knows what our choices will be. But I thought that God at least for married couples have to have certain feelings for each other, or certain common interests, which is what I meant by soulmates.

I will not think of soulmates again then. Thanks for making me aware of these things.

Ouch. No. :nope:

The notion of a ‘soulmate’ is not a Christian notion – it’s a pagan / New Age one. Think of it this way: there are billions of people alive right now, and billions who have either already died or not yet been born. Are you really saying that there’s only one person meant for you? Pretty bad odds, there…

No: God did not create one person for you: He gave you the capacity to love, and the freedom to choose with whom you would bind yourself in the covenant of marriage. Find a person with whom you can make that commitment, and make that marriage work. In fact, realize that you’ll have to work on it – every day – in order for your marriage to survive and flourish. Don’t presume that “there’s only one person in the universe for me” and mistakenly assume that when you find that person, all will be right in the world and you’ll live happily ever after.