If a Protestant by virtue of religious background as a Protestant and baptism, possibly without Catholic ancestors for hundreds of years, would be asc

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There was an old post that pertains to this that was never sufficiently answered that was closed 6 years ago, during the course of which, a lot has happened. This was never answered sufficiently, and I have the answer (well, one of the best ones that can be given as of this writing). Canon Law hasn’t clarified the issue yet. The Bishop of the Eparchy of St. Josaphat out of Parma, OH has approved of direct conversions. I was Chrismated directly, but the fully-educated priest I originally contacted originally thought that I would be ascribed Latin, before talking with the Bishop about it. This is a matter of Church Discipline, not of Dogma, and the matter hasn’t been cleared up yet—though I personally suspect that the Popes will agree that Eastern Catholics can play this kind of role in drawing Protestants to the Catholic Faith… Low-liturgical Protestants and some high-liturgical ones abandoned Catholic ideas of Rite a long time ago… Many Protestants renounced the Roman Church and Rite, and so, abandoned Rite all-together. As for me, I was drawn to the Church through Eastern Orthodoxy, but Church History and hopes for the future of Christianity and current issues of Orthodoxy not in Communion with Rome led me to believe in the importance of being united to Rome. Historically, a Baptism is a Baptism, and there was no split between East and West… the Liturgical and Spiritual differences rather evolved… Or else those that moved to Constantinople with the Emperor remained Roman, because they “never documented their change of Rite.” (What about their descendants? At what point did they clearly “document a change”, whether by choice or otherwise.) It gets ridiculous after a certain point and must be acknowledged that it is a point of discipline. And if Eastern Catholics are to play the largest role they can in the New Evangelization, they must be able to receive people back into the Church as one of them, just as freely as Roman Catholics do. What of Eastern Orthodox who became Roman Catholic when the Eastern Rite was not considered… their descendants… what are they? How can they be found? As for me, my name is on the registery at Saint Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Mission where I was Chrismated according to Ancient Eastern Tradition. I am Eastern Orthodox, in Communion with the Holy Roman See. I am a Byzantine Catholic. I grew up Southern Baptist, with pure-blooded Native American ancestors before any Catholics (and I am as white as the next white person… blonde hair, blue eyes)… I have never been Latin. The ecclesial community that brought me up… the leaders there never studied Latin, but Hebrew and Greek… Most Protestant Seminarians don’t study Latin. The Holy Spirit has worked through them distinctively and continually, and their integration into the Fullness of the Life of the Church need not be Latin… They have a Rite not to be Roman. (Pardon the pun…)
 
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One reason it matters canonically… (and why it matters enough to be reopened). Married Priests. (And no, I didn’t become Eastern Catholic so I could become one. I don’t know what God’s will is for my life. I’d have to be married before I could consider being a married priest… though I wouldn’t rule out becoming a priest and not being married… or being monastic… I’m going to Law School in a year, by God’s Grace. God will get me where He wants me, and I am a Byzantine Catholic and member of the UGCC. Most Roman Catholics aren’t Italian and this member of the UGCC isn’t Ukrainian… but that isn’t what makes one a member of a particular Church, and it isn’t what determines what makes the best fit. I love all of our Traditions and Practices, and History, and Fasts, and Spirituality, and Theology. And I find in it the completion of what I was as a Protestant. And that may blow some people’s mind. But I’m not the only one who feels that way, or has felt that way, or will feel that way. Not that feelings define reality, but the Law has yet to clarify the matter… and this makes the most sense for the good of the whole Church… including the Latin Rite.) Eastern Orthodox have married priests who were former Protestants. (Think of the insult to the Orthodox that rejecting their practice will be? Guess who wrote the Eastern Orthodox Study Bible in English.) Those who change Rites from Latin to Byzantine can’t become married Priests by virtue of the Law, in place to keep Latins from seeking to subvert the Discipline of their Church sui juris… a Church sui juris that many Protestants have never been a part of, nor their ancestors (and then not all of them were that) for hundreds of years.
 
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But anyway, like I said… the most important bit is that there is no current canon law in existence that currently defines that Protestants of any tribe or tongue are Latin by virtue of their baptism in conjunction with virtue of their religious origin or that of their ancestors by hundreds of years… (long enough for historically, different Rites to be established… new languages and people groups to come into existence… A lot can happen in that time. Claiming that Protestants who have ancestors hundreds of years back who were Roman Catholic are themselves Latin Rite if Chrismated/Confirmed is a massive assumption.) The Law has yet to specify, and the practice and way some converting Protestants have been regarded — if one knows anything about the history of how Eastern Catholics have been treated in America — is by no means legitimate precedent for the future or good to make a law… and might one day in the future be seen as a mistreatment of Eastern Catholics, a way they’ve been held back, as they can’t intentionally seek to convert Orthodox without seriously sinning against the Purposes of the Church and the Popes, and if they can’t convert Protestants, they will be unlikely to grow to the proportion that they need to be… A lung that is 98% and the other that is 2%… that can’t be a healthy body… and it’s not the will of the Church. And it will be a sin against Protestants (and thus the Eastern Catholic Churches) as well… because it might unnecessarily keep young men with a lot of potential to serve the Church from converting to the Catholic Church (trust me, it has that capacity for many many people and families, whose whole Christian experience has always had married ministers, and who know jack about the Ancient Church. They will come to appreciate Celebacy and the Latin Rite’s Celebate Priesthood and how it witnessses powerfully to contemporary culture, but it doesn’t have to be /their/ particular Rite that they integrate into the Church’s Sacramental Life into. No Sacraments, no Rite. And Protestants haven’t had Valid Sacraments save Baptism for hundreds of years, before they were Protestant… They left Rite behind a long time ago. Their Rite-lessness is kind of a part of the Tragedy of Protestantism… but the Catholic Church can make them whole, and give them identity.)

(This is broken up into three because of the limit given for original post… like on all posts… my personal opinion is, if possible that first post be given more space… later discussion, even when the OP posts… has the same limits as now. In my personal suggestion.)
 
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(That I have to break this up with yet another post by less than a hundred characters is frustrating…)

But yes, this is up for discussion. If anyone can add anything to this, then good on you. Please do. Especially if one has personal stories. But I feel like majority of people with a strong opinion on the matter contrary to this who could comment on this will simply be trolls, who will think that they’re right and that their personal opinions on this are dogma, in spite of the lack of clear canonical definitions on the matter… The truth of the matter (though it cannot be truly known without further canon law developments) can only be deduced by thought on Church History… which reveals Rite to be a matter of Church Discipline and so not Dogmatic. And so the Church is therefore free to pursue those courses of action which meet its broad interests and goals the best in accordance with the mission She has been given for the Salvation of as many souls as She can see saved.
 
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CCEO 901 - If non-Catholics, who do not belong to an Eastern Church, are received into the Catholic Church, the norms given above are to be observed with the necessary adaptations, provided they have been validly baptized.

It seems that canon law permits Protestants to join an eastern rite directly.
 
Thank you!! Now I’m going to go look at this in context… see if it obscures the matter. This is terrible that Latin Priests and even a missionary Byzantine Priest was going around telling people that Protestants are by virtue of baptism Latin… we were looking at another Canon… We were so narrow in our sights… But I honestly failed to find this. Thank you for sending me this. I will read this baby up!!

Is this particular Canon new? That’s really dumb of me to ask. Is it in a weird place in the CCEO? Okay, I’m going to look at this now…

For one, I’m overjoyed… on the other hand, I’m heartbroken that Priests, even Eastern ones… who are supposed to be missionaries… are lacking the knowledge of the Canons this poorly… Granted, the CCEO was just put out there in 1990…

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Looked at it. It’s there. It’s implied. But it needs to be more-fully defined. This needs to be codified with regards to ascription, it needs to be in there in the sections on Baptism and Chrismation. And this truth needs to be advanced to the Eastern Catholic Churches. We are sent. We are approved. Praise God.

(Now let’s get some Eastern Catholic Churches in Kentucky… But we need more vocations. Maybe if bi-vocational ministry was opened up as a possibility by our Patriarch/Metropolitan Archbishop? I hear we get a newer version of our particular laws as Ukrainian Catholics in 2018… Maybe one day…

And we need Eastern Catholic Seminaries in the South… and we need Eastern Catholics in the South. Eastern Catholic Churches in America must be sending and planting Churches… dedicated to growth and going where we are not already, to give that Eastern Catholic witness to where it is needed… and it is needed desperately in the Bible Belt.)
 
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I read it again… Actually that canon only deals with being brought into the Catholic Church. Any Byzantine Catholic Priest can Chrismate anyone who has been validly Baptized and hasn’t already been validly Chrismated. It says nothing of ascription to a particular Church sui juris, unfortunately.

Granted, it seems like a slap in the face that it would be otherwise than we think it should be. And it would be. And be deceptive and manipulative. My ancestors opted to leave the Roman Catholic Church a long time ago… and yet that the Roman Catholic Church would claim them anyways… Just to claim their descendents for themselves… It seems very twisted indeed, and it cannot be the true teaching of the Church on the matter.

I have since been reconciled with the Roman Catholic Church… but I haven’t become one of them. But I am a Catholic. And I am in Full Communion with the Pope of Rome through my Church.
 
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I’m not a canon lawyer, but I don’t see any other way to look at it. The Code of Canon Law (#11 Latin) expressly disclaims the application of ecclesiastical laws to Protestants. It seems very unlikely that they would be considered Latin rite, especially given that no traceable ancestry exists between you and any Catholics in the past (so even if that was the law, how could you know that all of your ancestors were even baptized?).
 
I’m pretty sure it is traceable. But my grandmothers have kept up with ancestry… And they (my ancestors) were Scottish, Irish, English, French, Dutch, and little Spanish. (Those that weren’t indigenous to this country, which is very few of them.) Surely in there somewhere they were validly baptized… those from Europe. And I’m willing to reckon they weren’t baptized by the Orthodox.

Looking up Canon 9 now… Thank you. You rock.
 
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You could compile a list of ancestors all the way back to the 16th century?

#11, not 9.
 
I’m pretty sure I have Irish Catholic ancestors. But it was well over a hundred years ago since there have been any Catholics in my living family most definitely. None I have known, or my parents have known. Or my grandparents. Or great grandparents. (Whom I knew.)

Canon Law tends to talk about parents and grandparents… not that far back. Taking it and applying it to those who… for one, had their ancestors leave the Latin Church a long time… seems like doing violence to the Law of the Church by applying it unnaturally without regard for the History of the Church or the interconnected developments of Rites and Churches and of their members. And it ultimately hurts the Church. Converts oftentimes make really great Catholics, and they can make really great Priests too. Even married Priests. Imagine their loyalty to the Catholic Church that gave them that kind of respect for their dignity as a person and freedom to choose which Church to join, to honor their heritage and plan for the future of one’s Family and one’s and one’s family’s service to the Catholic Church.
 
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I read Canon 11… You see, I was baptized validly. To be validly baptized, and to choose to follow the Jesus of the Bible, the God who is Trinity, truly… is to become Catholic… though imperfectly if not in the Visible Body of the Catholic Church in a particular Church sui juris. So I was Catholic, and so Church Law still applied… what portions of it could for one without Rite and without a Church sui juris, though I was ignorant of the Law of the Catholic Church.

The question can be answered… and this shows the nature of the truth in relation to the Law, and visa-versa implicitly… canonically (since the Canon is more than codified human law in writing)… by asking what Church sui juris post-autonomy persons were members of before such churches even existed… it can’t be addressed. Even relatives would end up ascripted to different churches… an impossibility if the Laws of the Church are interpreted and applied robotically. (Persons moved and lived in different nations across the Roman Empire even in the old days… And they didn’t go and appeal for a Rite transfer, let me tell ya.)
 
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Yes… But isn’t that a positive affirmation itself? (But a positive affirmation is not positive law, is it?) But the Church Law applies to those who are not yet Catholic, as the Rite of Orthodox is protected and recognized, even should they come into Communion with Rome… It could be said to apply to Protestants in a similar way.

I think the way to win this matter (not for ourselves, but for the Good of the whole Catholic Church, and for the sake of souls alienated to the Sacraments and Our Unity (even in Diversity)) like we want to is to acknowledge that the law cannot be applied robotically without regard for history of persons themselves and the choices of their ancestors to leave a certain Church sui juris, and the history of the Church itself and Rites and Churches themselves. The History that provides the foundational basis for the basic existence of matters (such as Rites and Churches) discussed in Canon Law is the lens through which the Canons can be properly understood.
 
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I realize that Canon law is there for a reason. Yet, I’m also wondering about the practical usefulness of all this concern in everyday life. It’s practical application. I’m reminded of those who adhere to the letter of the law in worshipping our God. Where even the toilet paper sheets are precut by hand so as to avoid “work” on the Sabbath. I would respect their interpretations of what is work if I were a guest.But I do not see it as practical, nor useful, for a life of worship and service.
 
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That’s because you have a better understanding of the Law and the nuances of the Law than they do by knowing Christ and being a member of His Church.

The reason why it matters is because of how much it matters to the lives of so many people… including myself… and to every Protestant who could ever possibly be reached with the message of the Church. And it matters to the Church. And it matters to your life as well… because we’re all connected and members of one another in Christ and in the Church.

It’s about people. It’s about love. It’s about unity—and a future, for the salvation of souls.

And it’s also about the Glory of God through worship. He is worthy to be worshiped by Protestants who have found the fullness of their Faith in an Eastern Rite. For me, spirituality was meant to be the culmination of theology, and I am blessed to take this and share it with others… as I grow in understanding and /knowing/ God, not through ideas, like these laws, but through participation in His uncreated Energies. Protestants won’t get to participate in that if they are alienated from the Church unnecessarily by those who do not understand the Law, which at its best comes forth from the work of God in the Life of the Church through the Holy Spirit… this life which we live.
 
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A beautifully written reply that simple layman “me” understands. Thank you for helping me to understand. Regards in Christ.
 
I don’t think that Protestants can be considered as adhering to the Latin rite because:
  1. Their liturgy (to the extent one exists) bears little in common with it, and
  2. They don’t have Churches, properly speaking. The Eastern Orthodox do.
 
NotMyOwn said:
(Now let’s get some Eastern Catholic Churches in Kentucky… … Maybe one day…

And we need Eastern Catholic Seminaries in the South… and we need Eastern Catholics in the South. Eastern Catholic Churches in America must be sending and planting Churches
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What you would have to do is find the Eastern Catholics that are already in the south, and instill some interest in them. A lot of eastern Catholics moved south from the rust belt beginning in the 1970’s when industry started drying up here.

My sister in law is Ukrainian, lives in South Carolina with my brother, and is just assimilated with the rest of her Latin rite church and family. You have a lot of that, EC’s moving to areas where there are insufficient numbers to organize and build a church, or hire a priest.
 
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