If a Protestant by virtue of religious background as a Protestant and baptism, possibly without Catholic ancestors for hundreds of years, would be asc

[NotMyOwn]

I would really like for the Holy See to comment on this. They will if it becomes more of a thing. If there’s more Protestants coming into the Church into the Greek Rite… which there will if I am faithful to the Church and God blesses my labors. I see the Greek Church in America being one of Americans of all ethnic backgrounds, like the Latin Church. Our Church Disciplines are just as legitimate as the Latin Rite, and our Traditions have just as much weight and value, and I believe play a role in drawing Protestants. I find it questionable if there would have been a Protestant Reformation if there were Greek Catholic Churches around and among all nations in the early 1500s. We witness to the Church Disciplines contained in the Bible… and its continuity in the Catholic Church. As Luther said, “The truth is with the Greeks.” And this Greek is with the Church Catholic, as were those of old.

What I wonder though… What if I, coming from a Protestant background and of Western European ancestry for the most part, but without any Catholic family members of recent memory, and being a convert, become married and then pursue the priesthood sometime after that? I fear that we self-impose unnecessary restrictions and Latinizations that do not accord with the law or its spirit. It is illicit for a transfer from the Latin Rite to become a married priest, if one wasn’t in a primary pastoral leadership position in an ecclesial community before becoming Catholic, and to an extent, properly so — since some may seek to escape the Church disciplines of their own Church… But I was never a Latin or under their Church disciplines by virtue of never being one of them. Even the ancestors of mine who hundreds of years back had Roman Catholic… they left the Roman Church. And they became homeless among the nations with regards to Apostolic Church and Rite… but I have found a home, in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church

Eastern Orthodoxy has married priests who are converts from Protestantism… Are we or are we not Orthodox? That’s what I’m asking. Even if it is not God’s will for my life to become a married priest. What about my Protestant friends who serve in ministry… I would desire to at least draw them with the same sorts of possibilities in vocation, and not a pointless conversion (from their perspective) and then having to go seek out a completely different vocation than they are fairly-certain than they are called to.

I’m ready for the Holy See to comment on the matter, but not as of past centuries (but with view to the future and current precedents for increasingly vocalizing the call of Eastern Churches to evangelize and grow and prosper for the good of the Church), and to do it with view towards evangelization and ecumenism, and organic historical realities and apologetics more than to hypothetical arithmetic from mechanical rules of current law super-applied in a vacuum. Does he or does he not have the Keys to the Kingdom? I fear that until Rome decides on the matter, Greek Catholic Churches will fear to be perceived as sheep stealers or violators of Latin Church Discipline, and will fear to evangelize as freely with Protestants…

 

[NotMyOwn]

Changed the title of the thread to say Rite/Church… because yeah, it’s the particular Church that matters and that the canon law addresses. Kyivan Church all the way, man But I do address Rite-specific matters in this thread… pertaining to Church disciplines for instance.

 

[Herculees]

IF one belonged to Episcopal Church they would become part of the Roman Rite because a subset of the Roman Rite is the Anglican (Episocopal) Use Liturgy. When an individual decides to join the Catholic Church they can enter through whatever rite they choose simply by presenting themselves to the pastor of the rite they desire to be part of and ask for classes to become part of their rite. (This is assuming they were NOT already baptized and/or confirmed in the Catholic Church already. For example a friend of mine HAD been baptized in the Catholic Church as an infant but had been introduced to many protestant churches and the Jehovah Witnesses as a child it was only as a teenager that she decided she wanted to be Catholic and then she needed her baptismal certificate which showed she was baptized in the Roman Rite. At the time they had no RCIA and therefore she just took the Catholic Church’s Bible Study and then was confirmed.

 

[NotMyOwn]

I love the Anglican Ordinate… I don’t see a “Baptist Ordinate” popping up anytime soon, and quite frankly, I think that would be unsatisfactory to most Baptists. The point of many evangelical movements /is/ the non-clerical preaching and bible studies and missions, and the low-liturgical, highly-contextualized style and presentation of the message. They don’t have the same function as Catholic churches—which is primarily the extending of the Sacramental Life to the lay people. (I believe) they are fully-integrable within the life of the Catholic Church for the benefit of all, but not in the same manner as the Anglicans and Episcopalians… I believe that this is done by the individual members being joined to different Catholic Churches, and being under congregational covenants agreed upon by the Catholic Church for their governance… like Orders, but for communities of lay people beyond parish life or that of societies, etc.

I see other Church sui juris leaderships besides the Holy See being involved in this integration of these “Reformed Institutions” and communities into the Body of the Catholic Church into the valid Churches.

(I’ve basically written a book on my phone about what this could look like, addressing every concern I could think of, and explaining the benefits, and the multiple ways it could go… I’m hopeful… and it is hope that will restore them to the Church… they must be captured by hope (as I was); “Return to your stronghold O prisoners of hope, for today I will restore to you double.” (Zachariah 9:12)… and they will find in the Catholic Church, the “sleeping giant [to] rise[,] catch[ing] the demons by surprise… until the whole world hears” (Casting Crowns, “Until the Whole World Hears”))

 

[Vico]

members of before such churches even existed

Historically there were schisms, however two sui iuris churches of today have no schism: Maronite and the Byzantine’s of Italy. All the others have specific reunion dates which are from 1552 or later. The norm for eastern membership is from the church (e.g., Assyrian Church or the East, an Oriental Orthodox church, or Eastern Orthodox church) of the father for those baptized as infants (not by which baptism ritual was used) and for adults, as chosen at baptism. The Holy See has the right to approve or deny a change of ascription, and has done so for individuals and groups. In the book, “Comparative Sacramental Discipline in the CCEO and CIC, A Handbook for the Pastoral Care of Other Catholic Churches Sui Iuris", 2003, CLSA, p. 255 that “Baptized converts from all mainstream Protestant Churches (Anglican, Methodist, Presbyterian, Baptist, etc.) and any sects that are derivative from therefrom, become members of the Latin Church sui iuris because there is now only one Western rite in the strict sense. [357] This applies only if they are validly baptized (CCEO c. 901), otherwise they are un-baptized converts and not subject to ipso iure ascriiption.” Also see CCEO c. 35 that the rite should be retained when coming into full communion.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The Byzantine Catholic Church USA (and other eastern) has approval for ordination of married priests since June 14, 2014, ending the restriction from Cum Datum Fuerit.

 

[NotMyOwn]

I’m aware of and studied in everything that you have said. Now, I would encourage you to go back and read everything that I’ve said on here so far.

My argument is that that is incorrect. Bishops disagree amongst themselves. The Protestant Reformation is itself a historical development. When persons reject the Latin Church, leave the Latin Church… period… they are no longer members of the Latin Church. And their descendants cannot be considered ascribed. New Evangelization is a fresh start for everyone, all Churches of the Catholic Church.

I spoke with a priest on this matter. He gave me as much push back as you, actually more. He spoke with our Bishop. Then agreed.

There is a lot more to this. A lot of historical complexities. Such a simplistic application is wrongful, and wrongs everyone, including the whole Church.

I would go back and read everything that I have written.

Developments outside of the Catholic Church are still developments. Unless we are to consider Ukrainian Catholics and Russian Catholics to be one Church… The Protestant Reformation is not wholly Western, but goes directly back to Scripture… the Protestant Reformation resulted in a loss of Rite. (Which is a sad, tragic reality, but true.)

My arguments above reduce the narrow and strict application of the law for hundreds of years to absurdity. I know it’s long, but read everything. With a somewhat open mind. And realize that the Catholic Church has yet to define the matter. And therefore ought to go with the best option for everyone… which is what I have said.

(If you would respond by saying that I did not give references and charts as you, I want you to know that I could cite the Catechism and Codes of Canon Law, and give charts as well, but it would be unnecessary and facetious, and would not give proper address to the matters at hand.)

(If Vico gives me pushback, now is the time for everyone else who has commented on here to support me.)

Brother Vico, if I’m right… This is ultimately good news for you as well. You have brothers and fathers of common Rite that you don’t know about yet… as Paul was untimely born among the Apostles, so are the details of these brothers peculiar, but unlike with the Apostle, this is rather ordinary. But though it is ordinary, it remains extraordinary.
(But the superimposition of Rite for hundreds of years where generations after generation reject Rite is both unnatural and wrong, even morally-so, and denies the freedom of man. We must remember the Purpose of the Law. Of course, who are either of us to attempt to define that which the Church has yet to define in an area so reasonably contentious as this?)

 

[NotMyOwn]

Historical developments are ordinary, and not extraordinary. Rite can only be always considered ascribed after only a few generations. (And children are no longer automatically ascribed to the Church of the Father, via recent developments of the Law.)

To show you how ridiculous this could be… Based upon my Native American heritage, consented to by my fathers by the continual personal distanced placed between my family and the Roman Church and the open rejection of that Church and Rite, I consider myself a former heathen ascribed to the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church by virtue of the Church that I would later be brought into the Church within.

The Latin Rite was superimposed upon the Irish who were in former times Alexandrian. Let us not forget this and that it is considered as being valid for future generations. If not, then perhaps based upon my Irish heritage I am Alexandrian?

 

[Vico]

…
My argument is that that is incorrect. Bishops disagree amongst themselves. …

Developments outside of the Catholic Church are still developments. Unless we are to consider Ukrainian Catholics and Russian Catholics to be one Church. …

And realize that the Catholic Church has yet to define the matter. And therefore ought to go with the best option for everyone… which is what I have said. …

What you said may be the best, so your avenue for changes is to appeal to the Holy See.

The non-Catholic churches which have apostolic succession and the non-Catholic ecclesial communities which do not have apostolic succession (but valid baptism) are part of the one Church of Christ.

The CCEO canon law applies to eastern Catholics and in some canons to the Latin Catholics, and the CIC canon law applies to Latin Catholic and in some canons to the Catholic eastern sui iuris churches.
Yes there is disagreement. When the eastern Catholic canon law (CCEO) was written it was a minority view of the Eastern Code Commission to allow Baptized adult converts to freely choose to ascribe to any Church sui iurus. It it necessary to preserve the eastern Catholic churches however (through canons for infant ascription and certain canons on sui iuris transfer at marriage) per Orientalium Dignitas of Pope Leo XIII.

It is easier to transfer from a Latin to ab eastern church sui iuris, than the reverse. At this time, the Latin Church can also allow transfer from Latin to eastern, if both bishops agree.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Future developments of Canon Law at the hands of the Holy See will testify to this reality, but the Spirit testifies to my soul that I am a Ukrainian Catholic. And I will not make this appear to be less valid by an invalid ‘transfer’ charade from the Latin Church, of which I was never a member.

I am under my Bishop Bohdan Danylo, a representative of Jesus Christ, and it is he who is responsible for the care of my soul in these matters. I trust him.

As for appeals, I don’t know how to go about that, and I don’t find the need to appeal at present. But later in life I may attempt to bring the matter to the attention of the Holy See through the means the Church has in place. Probably as I bring other former Protestants to the Church, extending to them that are devoted and could handle it the whole of the Rites available to them in the Catholic Church in America to chose from.

 

[Vico]

Future developments of Canon Law at the hands of the Holy See will testify to this reality, but the Spirit testifies to my soul that I am a Ukrainian Catholic. And I will not make this appear to be less valid by an invalid ‘transfer’ charade from the Latin Church, of which I was never a member.

I am under my Bishop Bohdan Danylo, a representative of Jesus Christ, and it is he who is responsible for the care of my soul in these matters. I trust him.

As for appeals, I don’t know how to go about that, and I don’t find the need to appeal at present. But later in life I may attempt to bring the matter to the attention of the Holy See.

For any Catholic, the proper pastor (which can be bishop and or priest) is determined by the ascribed sui iuris church and it is a matter that has bearing on sacramental discipline. For those baptized as infants in an eastern Catholic church, most will have received all three sacraments of Christian initiation, even sometimes when they were received contrary to the Latin Church sacramental disciplines, for one canonically ascribed to the Latin sui iuris church. The marriage laws are different between the sui iuris churches and can make a marriage invalid it not complied with. (However it likely could be corrected with dispensations later.)

I transferred from the Latin Catholic to the Byzantine, so if you decide to do that I can answer questions.

We have more than one member (at least) of the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Saint Josaphat in Parma in our Byzantine Catholic parish, since there is not a nearby Ukrainian Catholic church.

Maybe it is interesting to you that the general principle is that the minister of baptism determines the ascription, however the correct minister is not always the one baptizing an infant. In order to preserve the eastern Catholic churches, measures were taken to prevent them from defaulting to the Latin.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Cool. I changed from being Protestant to being Ukrainian Catholic. Good to meet you. If I needed a dispensation, that would be assuming that I was a Latin Catholic. I don’t need Latin Bishops to work with me in this. All simple Bishops are equal in authority save that of the Holy See (and the other members of the Pentarchy in order if they were in Communion with Rome). Only the Holy See of Rome has the authority to define matters here. Latin Bishops are not superior to Eastern Bishops. I don’t have need to go through Latin Bishops.

If Roman Bishops were over all Protestants in their territory… do you have any idea how much that would change the role of Roman Bishops? The way the Roman Church is doing things now would be wrong and terrible on the level with genocide, only worse… caring for the care of the few while being responsible for and neglecting the many, including everyone I know—their eternal souls. But I don’t think that is the case. I’m going to assume the best of the Church, or at least not the worst, in this case, and continue in hope for the future.

 

[Vico]

Cool. I changed from being Protestant to being Ukrainian Catholic. Good to meet you. If I needed a dispensation, that would be assuming that I was a Latin Catholic. I don’t need Latin Bishops to work with me in this. All simple Bishops are equal in authority save that of the Holy See (and the other members of the Pentarchy in order if they were in Communion with Rome). Only the Holy See of Rome has the authority to define matters here. Latin Bishops are not superior to Eastern Bishops. I don’t have need to go through Latin Bishops.

If Roman Bishops were over all Protestants in their territory… do you have any idea how much that would change the role of Roman Bishops? The way the Roman Church is doing things now would be wrong and terrible… caring for the care of the few while being responsible for and neglecting the many. But I don’t think that is the case. I’m going to assume the best of the Church in this case.

No assumption of being Latin is made, both the Latin and eastern have applicable canon laws and they are coordinated.

Most of the eastern Catholic sui iuris churches have bishops of their own church to care for them. They are required to comply with the canon law CCEO and CIC so if you are Ukrainian Catholic you should be able to obtain a baptismal certificate that states that, from the parish where you were received into the Catholic church. It that does not show Ukrainian then your are not officially Ukrainian and would need to get that corrected in case of marriage or ordination in particular.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Yep, it’s sorted. I have that certificate. And it does show Ukrainian

 

[NotMyOwn]

But yeah, you can see why I started this forum, rite? (I mean, “right? )

 

[NotMyOwn]

Because upon encountering difficulties, some Protestants might be, unlike me, discouraged from entering the Catholic Church at all. I was drawn to the Catholic Church by Orthodoxy and brought into an Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome. I am Orthodox, and any who join me like this become Orthodox, based upon those terms. The See of Rome may not have defined the matter… but the See of Constantinople has. And where Rome is silent (and where the Scripture itself is silent) but the next See of the Holy Pentarchy speaks, namely Constantinople, within or without Communion of the Most Holy Roman See, it is to be believed.

The only Orthodox priest in my city (I was Chrismated in another city) is a married former-Protestant… who was not formerly a pastor. A large portion of his parish is former-Protestant. (I alone of the converts from Protestantism in my city to Orthodoxy have done so in terms of Communion with the Holy Roman See.) The Church would not deny his labors, nor cause him to be discarded upon the reunion of his Bishops with the Holy Roman See. Surely they would not reject me either, nor my labors (past, present, and future) for the Church. I accept the future as being a defining reality for the present. And as a Byzantine Christian, the technical first among equals of my Rite according to the Canons is the Chair of His All-Holiness of Constantinople, currently acting Ecumenical Patriarch of Orthodox Christians His All-Holiness Bartholomew.

 

[Vico]

Because upon encountering difficulties, some Protestants might be, unlike me, discouraged from entering the Catholic Church at all. I was drawn to the Catholic Church by Orthodoxy and brought into an Orthodox Church in Communion with Rome. I am Orthodox, and any who join me like this become Orthodox, based upon those terms. The See of Rome may not have defined the matter… but the See of Constantinople has. And where Rome is silent (and where the Scripture itself is silent) but the next See of the Holy Pentarchy speaks, namely Constantinople, within or without Communion of the Most Holy Roman See, it is to be believed.

Historical fact is that Rome favored the idea of the Triple Petrine See of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria, not Pentarchy which was an innovation of Constantinople.

The current resident patriarchs are seven:

• Rome
• Melkite
• Coptic
• Maronite
• Syrian
• Armenian
• Chaldean

And the four Major Archbishops:

• Ukraine
• Romania
• Syro-Malabar
• Syro-Malankara

You wrote:

here was an old post that pertains to this that was never sufficiently answered that was closed 6 years ago, during the course of which, a lot has happened.

But yeah, you can see why I started this forum, rite? (I mean, “right? )

The Holy See conceded the matter to the local bishops with jurisdiction, so they may have come up with agreements in private for how to proceed. You would find it difficult the discover private agreements between bishops.

 

[NotMyOwn]

Well, Rome has since accepted the Pentarchy. I’ve read it in official documents and/or Bulls of the Holy See.

And my Bishop of the St. Josaphat Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Parma accepts me. Ultimately, however, one view will win. Until the Holy See settles the matter once and for all, I will not be ultimately-categorized a Latin by requesting any transfer or dispensation in the present from Latin Bishops. Such could jeopardize my proper ascription to the UGCC in the future.

Who knows? Maybe through me the mission of Greek Catholics to Protestants (as Orthodox Christians) at last will be recognized, and we will be brought into one another’s unity.

 

[Vico]

Well, Rome has since accepted the Pentarchy. I’ve read it in official documents and/or Bulls of the Holy See.

And my Bishop of the St. Josaphat Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Parma accepts me. Ultimately, however, one view will win. Until the Holy See settles the matter once and for all, I will not be ultimately-categorized a Latin by requesting any transfer or dispensation in the present from Latin Bishops. Such could jeopardize my proper ascription to the UGCC in the future.

You said your baptismal certificate states Ukrainian ascription, so the matter is settled.

Read this please:
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/...le_patriarch_of_the_west_was_unclear_obsolete

 

[NotMyOwn]

At the time they did indeed favor it. I don’t have time today to find you the Bulls/Encyclicals/CCC bits I am talking about which recognize the Pentarchy and the Ecumenical Patriarchate as Second among Equals of all the Holy Churches of God. I will find you this later, if you request it.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these matters with the opposite perspective over this forum. I appreciate it. It is a significant part of why I created this forum.

{The other reason being for the good of my still Protestant brothers and sisters. As the Apostle Paul cared for his Jewish brothers and sisters, so do I care for them, with great aching in my heart and sometimes tears… though I have more hope for them since they profess Christ. I want the Church’s ministry to them to be the most successful in drawing them to the Church.

My (or rather our) Protestant brothers and sisters, our alienated brothers and sisters (O my heart), are all over the US and all over the world. I want their treatment and ascription to be fair and right, giving them the freedom that they are due, no matter where they live. I long for their reunion into our Communion, and I believe that one of the ways that is most conductive towards that is in giving them choices in possible terms of reunion, for the good of their souls. I have found my spiritual needs, the brokenness of my soul being historically and personally connected to the spiritual practices (and lackings thereof) of those common to the particular kind of evangelical Protestantism of which I was brought up, best addressed by Byzantine Spirituality. I found the completion of the Faith which I have always held to in the Byzantine Spirituality and Traditions… I find it a good bridge to the Catholic Faith… one addressing and overwhelming many Protestant objections, and so more readily-accepted. Ultimately, all that matters is that they become Catholic and walk in grace. The hearts of all Catholics pure in heart and enlightened in understanding and more-perfectly integrated in desire in the matter can surely agree there. My heart just breaks for my alienated brothers and sisters, including my family and my many friends. I see their brokenness… and I see and experience a better way.

{As I hope you can see, this isn’t just some intellectual thing to me, or some way in which I am bothering myself with things beyond the daily concerns of my station… including my calling as a Christian to evangelize and draw people to the Life and Freedom (in grace to experience the weight of the passions lightened through the intercessions of our Lady and Leader and those of the Angels and Saints, and by the strength that comes through the Spirit, and by prayer and contemplation and sharing in the Divine Energies, to battle (through fasting, Psalmody, and various Hymns, and spiritual disciplines, and the Wisdom of the Fathers, and prayers) for freedom and win victory over the passions) that is available in Christ in the Church. This is very personal and near to my heart and the daily spiritual experience of my life… And if God ever calls me towards marriage and/or the priesthood as you have stated, even more so.}}

 

[Vico]

At the time they did indeed favor it. I don’t have time today to find you the Bulls/Encyclicals/CCC bits I am talking about which recognize the Pentarchy and the Ecumenical Patriarchate as Second among Equals of all the Holy Churches of God. I will find you this later, if you request it.

Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these matters with the opposite perspective over this forum. I appreciate it. It is a significant part of why I created this forum.
…

You are welcome.

LATERAN COUNCIL IV 1215 - Chap. 5. The Dignity of the Patriarchs

[Denzinger 436] Renewing the ancient privilege of the patriarchal sees, with the approval of the sacred universal synod, we sanction that after the Roman Church, which by the ordering of the Lord before all others holds the first place of ordinary power as the mother and teacher of all the faithful of Christ, the (Church of) Constantinople holds the first, Alexandria the second, Antioch the third, and Jerusalem the fourth place.

http://patristica.net/denzinger/