If abortion was illegal

[valient_Lucy]

That’s not a unique situation – we have cases of people coerced into committing crimes, including participation in murder. In such cases, the defense brings out the pressure the defendant was under, and the jury determines whether it partially justified the act.

My own preference is to allow underage girls to sue when they reach majority. And to make 4D sonograms a matter of informed consent, so that a woman who was not shown a 4D sonogram could sue.

I think we can sue abortionists out of business.

Sue the abortion doctor for what? Doing what she asked him to do?
I know that many people probably support groups like Rachael’s Tears, that claim that women feel guilt after an abortion. But I doubt that many women really do regret an abortion. I don’t believe they’re capable of that. After all, “Can one be pardoned and retain the offense?”

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sue the abortion doctor for what? Doing what she asked him to do? [/quuote]

Let me recap:

Many abortions are coerced – especially in the case of juveniles. I am working with local politicians on a law that would allow a juvenile who was coerced to sue when she reached her majority.

Next, there is some evidence that women who want abortions tend to change their minds when shown a 4D sonogram of the child. We are working on a law to make 4D sonogram part of “Informed Consent.” A woman who was not shown a 4D of her unborm baby cojuld sue the abortionist later because he did not show her what she was really killing.
valient Lucy;2220436:

I know that many people probably support groups like Rachael’s Tears, that claim that women feel guilt after an abortion. But I doubt that many women really do regret an abortion. I don’t believe they’re capable of that. After all, “Can one be pardoned and retain the offense?”

I assure you, more than one girl has been dragged in tears to an abortionist, pleading with her parents all the way. More than one woman has learned more about life in the womb and been overcome with sorrow.

Why don’t you contact the Project Rachael director in your diocese and investigate the issue?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Why do you answer a question with a question?

when it’s a rhetorical question that is to be expected surely?
these simplistic answers show massive ignorance - my point is partly if women were willing to risk death by procuring back street abortions (a tendency actually fuelled by “Christian” judgmentalness and hypocrisy) then why would a prison sentence be a deterrent? this is getting into a very nasty old testament-type mentality which frightens me to be honest

 

[jack_hawkins]

If abortion was once again illegal there would need to be a period of re-education before the women (or children) would be held so accountable,imho. A whole generation or 2 has been convinced that abortion is A-OK. Christian charity demands it.The abortionist, however, knows what he/she is doing and should definitely be held accountable, even if he/she pretends to a charitable motive. And, by the way,with the advent of DNA testing, thoseFOBs (fathers of babies) should be held accountable too, unless they can prove they sincerely tried to prevent the death of the child.

that policy would ensure that all abortions were carried by back street practitioners who don’t realise that the cervix is not in alignment with the vagina - hence the knitting needle through the posterior fornix

 

[vern_humphrey]

that policy would ensure that all abortions were carried by back street practitioners who don’t realise that the cervix is not in alignment with the vagina - hence the knitting needle through the posterior fornix

A woman who chooses to have an abortion knows there might be risks. She chooses to face them. And many women had successful abortions even when it was illegal and survived them.

The baby which is to be killed does not choose to face death – and is always killed.

 

[seekerz]

that policy would ensure that all abortions were carried by back street practitioners who don’t realise that the cervix is not in alignment with the vagina - hence the knitting needle through the posterior fornix

What would you like to see done, Jack?
Just curious.

Personally I think before contemplating the form of punishment for those who commit the crime I would look at whether any of my attitudes or behavior contribute to the scourge of abortion.

Mine would be that I have a very hard time relating to those who have serious physical deformities. Knowing that and knowing how painful it is for a mother to see her child rejected or excluded, I feel like a hypocrite telling people that abnormalities detected in the womb should be accepted (even though I know it is the right thing to do) when even from a distance I have difficulty accepting them myself.

 

[Graing]

when it’s a rhetorical question that is to be expected surely?
these simplistic answers show massive ignorance - my point is partly if women were willing to risk death by procuring back street abortions (a tendency actually fuelled by “Christian” judgmentalness and hypocrisy) then why would a prison sentence be a deterrent? this is getting into a very nasty old testament-type mentality which frightens me to be honest

This comes across to me as very deceitful and arrogant. Very sad how you subtley demean those taking a contrary position to yours and at the same time dishonestly shift the argument’s focus. And where exactly is the hypocrisy here? Do you believe that the Catholic church publicly crys out for the lives of innocent unborn and somehow make money in back room agreements? I realize you are trying your best to sound as intelligent and pompous as you possibly can, but in that effort you have lost hope for clarity in the argument.

-Graing

 

[vern_humphrey]

What would you like to see done, Jack?
Just curious.

Personally I think before contemplating the form of punishment for those who commit the crime I would look at whether any of my attitudes or behavior contribute to the scourge of abortion.

Mine would be that I have a very hard time relating to those who have serious physical deformities. Knowing that and knowing how painful it is for a mother to see her child rejected or excluded, I feel like a hypocrite telling people that abnormalities detected in the womb should be accepted (even though I know it is the right thing to do) when even from a distance I have difficulty accepting them myself.

I know several people who have serious abnormalities. Would you ask such a person if they wanted you to kill them? What do you think they would say?

If people living with those difficulties don’t choose death, no one else has the right to choose it for them.

 

[fix]

that policy would ensure that all abortions were carried by back street practitioners who don’t realise that the cervix is not in alignment with the vagina - hence the knitting needle through the posterior fornix

What type of utilitarian reasoning is this? So, if we must condone murder we best do it the safest way possible?

 

[seekerz]

I know several people who have serious abnormalities. Would you ask such a person if they wanted you to kill them? What do you think they would say?

If people living with those difficulties don’t choose death, no one else has the right to choose it for them.

That’s totally correct.

My point was quite different: if we ask something of others shouldn’t we in all honesty do it ourselves i.e. be inclusive of those who are different, instead of being uncomfortable or avoiding them or acting if they were someone else’s problem?

I know I’ve been guilty of all three at various times.

 

[jack_hawkins]

This comes across to me as very deceitful and arrogant. Very sad how you subtley demean those taking a contrary position to yours and at the same time dishonestly shift the argument’s focus. And where exactly is the hypocrisy here? Do you believe that the Catholic church publicly crys out for the lives of innocent unborn and somehow make money in back room agreements? I realize you are trying your best to sound as intelligent and pompous as you possibly can, but in that effort you have lost hope for clarity in the argument.

-Graing

well I don’t have to try to sound as intelligent as I possibly can, having outgrown any of the games you might want to play
I am confident of my intellectual capabilities having trained in one major profession and accepted for training in another as well recently - you must not be, therefore
I am commenting from a position of knowledge about the realities of abortion pre-legalisation in the UK
I am not sure why you presume my comments about hypocrisy are directed at the Catholic church - would you like to comment?
trying to shift the debate onto real life is not dishonest at all - far from it. I just think some people comment without knowing certain facts - and if that seems pompous then I think some people need to grow up frankly!

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s totally correct.

My point was quite different: if we ask something of others shouldn’t we in all honesty do it ourselves i.e. be inclusive of those who are different, instead of being uncomfortable or avoiding them or acting if they were someone else’s problem?

I know I’ve been guilty of all three at various times.

Who is it that’s exclusive?

My wife is Assistant Director of Nurses at the local nursing home. I often help out there with elderly people who are incontinent and not fully in possession of their faculties. There are also younger people who have various disabilities that require they be in the home.

We have people in our tiny parish who have both mental and physical problems – and we integrate them into the parish life so they may contribute and feel pride. A couple of them are my special friends – they want to get married and I am their assigned counselor. We have a couple with an adopted mixed-race child who is totally helpless and unable to communicate. He is always there in any of the children’s activities – even if he doesn’t know what’s going on.

 

[CCM08]

So, if the woman is the guilty one, and she already has six children, are you volunteering to take care of her children while she sits on death row? I think it would be a good idea to see how this was handled before the 1970’s when abortion was illegal.

So what you’re saying is that a woman with children that commits a murder should not face punishment for it? Does this mean that mothers are free to kill anyone they want?

 

[CCM08]

when it’s a rhetorical question that is to be expected surely?
these simplistic answers show massive ignorance - my point is partly if women were willing to risk death by procuring back street abortions (a tendency actually fuelled by “Christian” judgmentalness and hypocrisy) then why would a prison sentence be a deterrent? this is getting into a very nasty old testament-type mentality which frightens me to be honest

Actually the assumptation that back alley abortion will become common, or was common when abortion was correctly outlawed, is nothing but propaganda. You aren’t ready to have a child, I completely support your ability to sign away parental rights and allow the state to take the child. You want to have a bike spoke stuck in you to end a child’s life for your personal convience then I’ll save my sympathies for the child that never got his/her shot at life.

 

[seekerz]

Who is it that’s exclusive?

Me - this was a comment about myself. I, personally have trouble relating to the seriously physically disabled (not that I think less of them or anything, but it’s hard for me to interact with them without feeling uncomfortable) and it’s an area I’d like to work on.

 

[valient_Lucy]

valient Lucy;2220436:

Sue the abortion doctor for what? Doing what she asked him to do? [/quuote]

Let me recap:

Many abortions are coerced – especially in the case of juveniles. I am working with local politicians on a law that would allow a juvenile who was coerced to sue when she reached her majority.

Next, there is some evidence that women who want abortions tend to change their minds when shown a 4D sonogram of the child. We are working on a law to make 4D sonogram part of “Informed Consent.” A woman who was not shown a 4D of her unborm baby could sue the abortionist later because he did not show her what she was really killing.

I assure you, more than one girl has been dragged in tears to an abortionist, pleading with her parents all the way.

There’s a big difference between being forced to do something against your will and doing something of your own free will.

My point is, a woman who has an abortion of her own free will, even if she grows to understand that she killed her unborn child, has still enjoyed the benefits of not having the child. She didn’t have to drop out of school, face pregnancy and childbirth, or put her life on hold to raise a child that she didn’t want.

The quote, “Can one be pardoned and retain the offense?” comes from Hamlet, when Claudius feels guilty for having murdering the king, his brother. However, because he murdered the king, he has been able to usurp the throne and marry his brother’s widow. Claudius wonders if he can receive forgiveness from his crime and still continue to enjoy all the benefits of his sin.

I don’t think that it is easy for a woman who willingly had an abortion to regret having an abortion.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Actually the assumptation that back alley abortion will become common, or was common when abortion was correctly outlawed, is nothing but propaganda

right, let’s look back at my post - where did I say it was common?
I’m not sure how common it was - but is that at all the point? no it isn’t. it was common enough to be a problem, speaking to gynaecologists from that era
I am shocked by the barbarity that some feel is justified by some sense of “righteousness” (which in many cases is self-righteousness)

 

[vern_humphrey]

Me - this was a comment about myself. I, personally have trouble relating to the seriously physically disabled (not that I think less of them or anything, but it’s hard for me to interact with them without feeling uncomfortable) and it’s an area I’d like to work on.

That’s called “projection,” when a person sees his own proclivities in others. Many people feel very protective and tender towards those with disabilities.

We should’t allow our own feelings to condem such persons – not to being warehoused where we can’t see them, and not to killing them.

 

[seekerz]

That’s called “projection,” when a person sees his own proclivities in others. Many people feel very protective and tender towards those with disabilities.

We should’t allow our own feelings to condem such persons – not to being warehoused where we can’t see them, and not to killing them.

What part of : I was talking about myself don’t you get? Where did you get your psychiatry degree? Why do you feel the compulsion to spoil each thread you post on?

Personally, I would not (in the eventuality that abortion became illegal) feel comfortable condeming someone to jail for something so recently legally ( and to some extent, socially) acceptable when I can’t deal with some of their motivations myself. Meaning: I’d have to work on me first.

The OP, if I’m not mistaken, was asking for personal opinions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

What part of : I was talking about myself don’t you get?

I got it. I pointed out how you seem to project your feelings on others.

Where did you get your psychiatry degree?

My graduate degrees are in Education, and that includes counseling.

Why do you feel the compulsion to spoil each thread you post on?

No one can “spoil” a thread. This is another example of projection – because you feel it isn’t going the way you want, you accuse someone else of “spoiling” the thread.

Personally, I would not (in the eventuality that abortion became illegal) feel comfortable condeming someone to jail for something so recently legally ( and to some extent, socially) acceptable when I can’t deal with some of their motivations myself. Meaning: I’d have to work on me first.

More projection. Laws should be based on objectivity.

The OP, if I’m not mistaken, was asking for personal opinions.

I think the OP was asking for logical debate.