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seekerz
Guest
Thanks for beautifully illustrating just what I was saying…
I’ll leave you to your psychological dissections.
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I’ll leave you to your psychological dissections.
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Graing
Guest
Quite the troll, aren’t you?well I don’t have to try to sound as intelligent as I possibly can, having outgrown any of the games you might want to play
I am confident of my intellectual capabilities having trained in one major profession and accepted for training in another as well recently - you must not be, therefore
I am commenting from a position of knowledge about the realities of abortion pre-legalisation in the UK
I am not sure why you presume my comments about hypocrisy are directed at the Catholic church - would you like to comment?
trying to shift the debate onto real life is not dishonest at all - far from it. I just think some people comment without knowing certain facts - and if that seems pompous then I think some people need to grow up frankly!
My assumption that you were speaking of the Catholic church comes from two things. The following statement:
And the fact that this is a Catholic forum. Seemed a logical assumption on my part.
Congratulations on your training and being accepted for further training. I wish you well. I am also happy that you have outgrown any proclivity to play forum troll games. Hopefully that will start with your next posting as I have no patience or interest in such games. As for growing up, you may want to follow your own advice.
Making bold statements about Christian hypocrisy and then denying it and misrepresenting facts with hyperbole (“back alley abortions”) does not serve to move the discussion forward in a positive manner. And yes I realize the irony here in that my posting also lacks that lever. I do however bristle at arrogance when combined with intellectual dishonesty and hyperbole.
-Graing
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Remember what Owen Hunter said to Orde Wingate.
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Graing
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Sorry, you have me at a loss… not up on my World War II knowledge, at least regarding the Major GeneralRemember what Owen Hunter said to Orde Wingate.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Sorry, my mistake – it was Charles Hunter. He was the second-in-command of Merrill’s Marauders. Orde Wingate, who thought this American unit ought to be under his command, used to bother Hunter while they were training.Sorry, you have me at a loss… not up on my World War II knowledge, at least regarding the Major General
Both units were to operate in the jungle behind Japanese lines. They used mule trains to carry supplies, replenishing them by airdrops now and then.
Wingate had all the mules in his command, the Chindits, “de-vocalized” by cutting their vocal cords so they couldn’t bray. He ordered Hunter to do the same to the American mules. Hunter ignored him. Finally one day Wingate told Hunter he was sending over British veteranarians to cut the vocal cords of the American mules.
Hunter replied, “No, sir! Braying is the only pleasure a jackass gets in this life.”
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Graing
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Haha great story Vern, even if I am the muleSorry, my mistake – it was Charles Hunter. He was the second-in-command of Merrill’s Marauders. Orde Wingate, who thought this American unit ought to be under his command, used to bother Hunter while they were training.
Both units were to operate in the jungle behind Japanese lines. They used mule trains to carry supplies, replenishing them by airdrops now and then.
Wingate had all the mules in his command, the Chindits, “de-vocalized” by cutting their vocal cords so they couldn’t bray. He ordered Hunter to do the same to the American mules. Hunter ignored him. Finally one day Wingate told Hunter he was sending over British veteranarians to cut the vocal cords of the American mules.
Hunter replied, “No, sir! Braying is the only pleasure a jackass gets in this life.”
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vern_humphrey
Guest
I meant the troll.
I use this story as a means of maintaining perspective when dealing with trolls.
I use this story as a means of maintaining perspective when dealing with trolls.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
what a lazy label that is - a replacement for any sort of coherent argument
Yes, I note the phrase “seemed ]logical” - I rest my case
since when did Christian equal Catholic
no comment necessary really
just a lot of bletheringhmm, when did I deny that I made comments about hypocrisy? err, never!?
as I say, I have learnt the truth about back street abortions from gynaecologists working in that era
how can you twist that into hyperbole?
you have not proven your allegation of intellectual dishonesty, but it’s not important (to me anyway)
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Nick
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I believe that a woman who procures an abortion should be punished just as any other murderer, taking into account of course how much she has been psychologically abused and coerced, but the death penalty can only be justifiable when it is the only way to protect human life from the criminal, and I dont think that it would apply in this case.
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Nick
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I want to thank those who partcipated in this thread, as I have borrowed some of your ideas in order to write a response in my local paper to this article which is also found here. I especially made use of the idea that women who procure abortion after it is made illegal should be punished just as anyone who kills an already born child in a manner as gruesome as abortion. I did not however advocate use of the death penalty, because I do not feel it would necessarily be justifiable for the reasons given above.
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Mirdath
Guest
I have to admit that the poster here who did do that would have had me in stitches if it weren’t so horrifying that someone could proclaim so loudly to be pro-life out of one side of the mouth and call for even more killing out of the other.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
I think it depends.
If she is of legal adult age she should receive the same punishment as the aborionist. If the biological father knew and consented he too should face the same punishment.
If she is not of legal adult age a determination should be made as to her circumstance: ie; rape/incest and under the coercion of adults- no punishment for the murder.
In any case I think punishment is the loss of personal freedoms for the guilty. I do not know what would be a just sentence.
If /when abortion does become illegal, society would be remiss if it does not implement a system to aquire and care for the unwanted children, and to make that widely known to society. Making abortion illegal does not eliminate this sadness, but real alternatives need to be offered to the woman/couple in lieu of killing be it adoption, foster care, orphanges, finacial assistance, and/or parenting classes.
Another incentive is not to stigmatize them more than they are already. A 19 yr old woman impregnated by a one night stand fling will likely know she was stupid and irresponsible. Show her that it is more dignified to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption if she does not want to raise it herself. Put pressure back on the men who father these children without regard to the life they have helped create. Show them that personal responsibility starts with them to their child even if they decide not to keep and raise the child themselves.
Governments should also incentivize the family unit by creating a positive atmosphere for a stay-at-home parent to raise the children and decrease the growing dependancy on day-care.
Raising the status of the unborn will raise the status of the women who carry them, and thus will raise the status of the family as a whole all of which benefits society at large.
I do not/cannot have children so take my post as it is. But I was a child for a time, and have numerous neices and nephews so I have some experience. I had a stay at home mom, while my dad worked to provide for 5 kids. It often was not easy for them (I had a blast, however), but things actually work out more often than not if given the opportunity to work.
I think being a parent is about the most noble of responsibilities we can be asked to do or find ourselves to have. I envy and admire parents that take their role seriously. Not for the difficult times, but for lifes purpose being fulfilled.
May God Bless you all.
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estesbob
Guest
Myth. prior to the imposing of Roe V Wade 98% of all illegal abortions were done in a sterile enviromewnt by a licensed physician. The number of maternal deaths from illegal abortions in the years leading up to Roe were under 400.
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vern_humphrey
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That’s a bogus argument anyway. It’s like saying that bank robbery should be legal, because if it is illegal, bank robbers might be in danger of shootouts and car wrecks while fleeing from the police.
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s4angel
Guest
are you who have mentioned it for making two victims?? subject to the death penalty. I though our church was against that??
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Nick
Guest
The Church teaches that the death penalty is justifiable in some situations. See here.
It doesnt seem, however, that the death penalty would be acceptable in the case of a woman who procures an abortion after abortion is made illegal, because it seems that it would be possible to protect future unborn children through imprisonment of the mother and reform programs.
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Greg_Dent
Guest
IF abortion were illegal…I submit that abortion is illegal. Halways has been, and always will be. No law can justify the murder of innnocents. It violates the bill of rights in the US constitution, and internationally violates the natural Law. There is leagl precedent for this in the trial at Nuremburg after the 2nd world war. The intentional killing of innocent human beings can never be justifed, and therefore is never legal.
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s4angel
Guest
Nick,
Thank you for that bit of information
I did not know that:blush: So let me see if I have this right. If the convicted continues to be a danger inside the prison then that would make it ok?? I only met one on death row that did that and he was recently executed I must admit to some seriously mixed feelings about it. I was relieved that he was never able to injure one of us or his lawyers/visitors but on the same token I felt bad because to kill is wrong.
I wish abortion were illegal. But what punishment should be metted out and what would happen to those women who have already come forward to say they had one and they will live with the regrett the rest of thier lives. Are they not already living in prison?? I mean one of the conscience?
Thank you for that bit of information
I did not know that:blush: So let me see if I have this right. If the convicted continues to be a danger inside the prison then that would make it ok?? I only met one on death row that did that and he was recently executed I must admit to some seriously mixed feelings about it. I was relieved that he was never able to injure one of us or his lawyers/visitors but on the same token I felt bad because to kill is wrong.I wish abortion were illegal. But what punishment should be metted out and what would happen to those women who have already come forward to say they had one and they will live with the regrett the rest of thier lives. Are they not already living in prison?? I mean one of the conscience?
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Nick
Guest
This situation is addressed in the link I provided above.Nick,
Thank you for that bit of information
If someone committs murder they are going to have to pay the consequences for it no matter how sorry they are. If someone were to kill their already born child and then realize what a horrendous thing they had done and feel that immense and terrible guilt they would still have to be punished by the law. Same goes for abortion.
I assume that you are reffering to women who procure an abortion after the government recognizes it illegality? I dont know if it would be possible or legal to prosecute someone who procured an abortion while the government (erroneously) declared them to be legal. Anyone know?
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vern_humphrey
Guest
They could not be prosecuted. Article I, Section 9, Clause 3 of the Constitution prohibits it
You cannot be tried for an act that was legal at the time you did it – no matter what later laws say.
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