If abortion were criminalized should women getting an abortion and abortionists face prison time?

[Allegra]

Second, the mother’s testimony against the abortionist would be useless, since it would be “he said, she said” which cancels out both testimony.

.

On what planet? People are convicted of crimes based on the accusation of the victim all the time! Why would anyone accuse a stranger of performing an abortion on them for no reason? Aside from that, there would be physical evidence if a doctor was performing abortions regularly.

 

[Debora123]

Only the abortionist should face prison time. Perhaps a lesser penalty to the woman.

 

[Elizabeth502]

You forgot the father. He should also be gaoled unless he can show that he did everything reasonably within his power to prevent the abortion. Or else that he was unaware the mother was pregnant and had given her no reason to think he would not accept a child.

Most abortions are committed because the father has refused to acknowledge or care for the child, or he has indicated beforehand he will not accept reponsibility for any child he maty father, or else he has implied this to the mother.

Of course there are some fine men who are only too willing to acknowledge and be a real father to the child, but the mother aborts him anyway. Or the even sadder cases where the father never even knew that he was a father.

Emphasis mine. And for people who don’t know the bolded portion, you have lived a sheltered existence.

 

[Nelka]

I say no, because I remember very well before abortion became legal that it was just the abortionist who faced legal action and that seemed right.

So if you wanted your husband dead and paid a man to kill him and he was captured after you should get off scot free?

 

[Pug]

I have an emotional response to offer.

It is a gross miscarriage of justice if a young girl goes to jail for murder while her two parents who shoved her into the examining/killing room have the pleasure of having two birds killed with one stone (annoying progeny now the state’s problem and the progeny of the progeny disposed of).

I don’t like laws that make you tear your hair out with the injustice of it all.

End emotional response.

 

[Debora123]

I have an emotional response to offer.

It is a gross miscarriage of justice if a young girl goes to jail for murder while her two parents who shoved her into the examining/killing room have the pleasure of having two birds killed with one stone (annoying progeny now the state’s problem and the progeny of the progeny disposed of).

I don’t like laws that make you tear your hair out with the injustice of it all.

End emotional response.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I voted “other”.

I’m less inclined to see the mother prosecuted than the abortionist. Premeditated murder is premeditated murder. I’m personally not in love with the death penalty, but I’d say 20 years ought to be a minimum.

**This is murder we are talking about.
**

I say no, because I remember very well before abortion became legal that it was just the abortionist who faced legal action and that seemed right. The woman may have committed a grave sin…or not. Many women are forced into abortions. Who knows for sure? The abortionist, however, knows exactly what is happening and making a good profit from it. That person is getting paid to kill, not acting from panic or possibly the point of a gun, which has been known to happen.

 

[Personanongrata]

How many prisons will have to be built for these women? What about the families they will leave behind? Also, the clogging of the Court system?

Sure lawyers and prision guards will have more jobs - but they are the only ones who will benefit.

Criminalization of abortion - not the answer.

Homes, and medical care for the ones that need it - IS the way.

A woman choosing adoption - IS a better alternative.

 

[JRKH]

I thought I would make this poll to find our what everyone’s opinion is on this matter. If abortion is ever criminalized, should women getting an abortion (supposing that they freely chose to get an abortion) and the abortionist face prison time for doing so? My opinion is that they should both face prison time. The abortionist would face a charge of murder and the woman would face a similar charge such as that of being an accomplice to murder.

So if you wanted your husband dead and paid a man to kill him and he was captured after you should get off scot free?

Nelka - you make a good point that speaks to the thread as presented by Holly -

EVERYONE - note the bolded section above in Holly’s original post.

It’s one thing to not hold a coerced woman responsible (such as Pug implies below). It’s another thing to let go a woman who freely chooses to abort a child.
I’m not saying it would be easy - perhaps even impossible - for the law to differentiate the two but there is certainly a difference in the moral culpability.

I have an emotional response to offer.

It is a gross miscarriage of justice if a young girl goes to jail for murder while her two parents who shoved her into the examining/killing room have the pleasure of having two birds killed with one stone (annoying progeny now the state’s problem and the progeny of the progeny disposed of).

I don’t like laws that make you tear your hair out with the injustice of it all.

End emotional response.

Pug I think that most people are addressing the issue from this standpoint…where there is some form of coercion involved and not the issue as presented by Holly.

The “Hit man” analogy works well…In the scenario you present, it is the grandparents (of the baby) who hire him. In the OP it is the mother who does.

In the long run - if abortion ever were made illegal, the law would likely have to use the same methods to catch them as they use on drug dealers and hit men. Sting operations

And it’s worthy to note that in the case of drug dealers, those who are hooked (victims?) are also sent to jail…is there a difference?? Just wondering…

Peace
James

 

[AthenaC]

On what planet? People are convicted of crimes based on the accusation of the victim all the time! Why would anyone accuse a stranger of performing an abortion on them for no reason? Aside from that, there would be physical evidence if a doctor was performing abortions regularly.

Yes, for things like child molestation we specifically cast a VERY wide net in practice because if we didn’t, we wouldn’t catch anybody. Unfortunately, because of that wide net, I personally know of at least one person who shouldn’t have done jail time (but he did).

In this case, we could cast a wide net, but then we would end up putting women in jail for having a miscarriage.

Also, it wouldn’t matter if a particular doctor is a known abortionist; the prosecution would still have to prove that he committed *a particular abortion *in order to convict him and put him away. (If I understand our legal environment correctly.)

 

[Pug]

James, or anyone else who wants to answer , could you help me see how it is plausible that law enforcement could easily and reliably determine who was coerced and who was not? I mean, if that can’t be done, how could the law ever be justly enacted?

(I’m still thinking about the hitman stuff)

 

[AthenaC]

EVERYONE - note the bolded section above in Holly’s original post.

Unfortunately, we can’t completely ignore the possibility of coercion. If we want to specifically scope out any situation other than freely chosen abortion by the mother and discuss possible legal penalties, great. However, in our hypothetical legal environment, we will still need to prove intent and lack of coercion. We also need to discuss how we would actually do this without casting such a wide net that we put women away who merely miscarried.

Part of why people are balking at strict legal penalties on the mother (if I am reading you all correctly) is that in reality, segregating the population of women whose pregnancies have ended unfortunately into: 1) women who purposefully, freely chose abortion; and 2) everyone else, would not be easy. Especially if abortion were a crime; everyone would be claiming “miscarriage” and abortionists would sell themselves as “high-risk pregnancy specialists.” Plus, every family suffering from a miscarriage or a stillbirth would be subject to a criminal investigation (because in a sick twist of how laws tend to be enforced), these would be the people who are not hiding the fact that they are pregnant. Could you imagine the hell that these families would go through simply for the “crime” of suffering tragedy until it was determined that no crime was committed? Or, rather, that there is “insufficient evidence for indictment” or whatever (much less comforting language)?

What you would probably see in a few years is that EVERYONE hides their pregnancies until about 2 weeks postpartum when everything is okay and everyone is alive.

So in sum, I don’t see how we can separate one part of our hypothetical discussion from all of the larger ramifications.

 

[JRKH]

Unfortunately, we can’t completely ignore the possibility of coercion. If we want to specifically scope out any situation other than freely chosen abortion by the mother and discuss possible legal penalties, great. However, in our hypothetical legal environment, we will still need to prove intent and lack of coercion. We also need to discuss how we would actually do this without casting such a wide net that we put women away who merely miscarried.

(Snip)

So in sum, I don’t see how we can separate one part of our hypothetical discussion from all of the larger ramifications.

Yes - I see the problem and I do not wish to stifle conversation. However I got the feeling that some of us were trying to answer the OP more specifically and others were answering in a more general (and likely more realistic) way. My response was to try to draw everyone’s attention to this fact so that we did not have any misunderstandings.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

James, or anyone else who wants to answer , could you help me see how it is plausible that law enforcement could easily and reliably determine who was coerced and who was not? I mean, if that can’t be done, how could the law ever be justly enacted?

(I’m still thinking about the hitman stuff)

I agree that it would be difficult. About the only way that I could think of it being reliably done is by “sting” - similar to that done in drug busts. The person seeking the abortion approaches what turns out to be an undercover cop. The one making such contact is unlikely to be the one being coerced and if that is the mother, her parents, the boyfriend or whomever…THEY are more than likely the instigator.
Likewise an Abortionist could be caught in the same way using undercover officers seeking an abortion.

I’m glad that I am not a lawmaker who would have to deal with this…

Peace
James

 

[AthenaC]

I agree that it would be difficult. About the only way that I could think of it being reliably done is by “sting” - similar to that done in drug busts. The person seeking the abortion approaches what turns out to be an undercover cop. The one making such contact is unlikely to be the one being coerced and if that is the mother, her parents, the boyfriend or whomever…THEY are more than likely the instigator.
Likewise an Abortionist could be caught in the same way using undercover officers seeking an abortion.

I’m glad that I am not a lawmaker who would have to deal with this…

Peace
James

Except for those situations where the teenage girl fears for her life if her parents find out about her pregnancy, or the boyfriend threatens the girl with violence if she doesn’t “take care of it” (and she believes him) … I don’t think stings would be all that great for this type of thing.

 

[Pug]

Except for those situations where the teenage girl fears for her life if her parents find out about her pregnancy, or the boyfriend threatens the girl with violence if she doesn’t “take care of it” (and she believes him) … I don’t think stings would be all that great for this type of thing.

Yes, I fear that the young girl will have been threatened in various ways, or perhaps simply be obedient to a clear parental command to go the the abortionist “or else”. Such a girl would show up as instructed, even without someone literally shoving her into the room. I don’t think children usually require death threats to get them to obey parental authority. Unfortunately, that often works even when you command the child to do something wrong and even if the child really does not want to obey that particular command. And in this case, the parents will have a huge incentive to lie if they are questioned about what orders they may have given.

 

[Pug]

The person seeking the abortion approaches what turns out to be an undercover cop. The one making such contact is unlikely to be the one being coerced and if that is the mother, her parents, the boyfriend or whomever…THEY are more than likely the instigator.

Hmmm. You are right that it will no longer be the case that a person can look up where to go in a phone book, since it will be illegal. So it is more likely that the parent will be the one trolling about to locate where to send their young daughter than it is for the daughter to be trolling about. That’s what my parents did. (No, I was never pregnant. They just researched when I started dating.)

You might have to make stiff penalties to inquire about where to get an abortion, and that might be where you get your sting.

 

[Pug]

Nelka - you make a good point that speaks to the thread as presented by Holly -

EVERYONE - note the bolded section above in Holly’s original post.

It’s one thing to not hold a coerced woman responsible (such as Pug implies below). It’s another thing to let go a woman who freely chooses to abort a child.
I’m not saying it would be easy - perhaps even impossible - for the law to differentiate the two but there is certainly a difference in the moral culpability.

Pug I think that most people are addressing the issue from this standpoint…where there is some form of coercion involved and not the issue as presented by Holly.

The “Hit man” analogy works well…In the scenario you present, it is the grandparents (of the baby) who hire him. In the OP it is the mother who does.

In the long run - if abortion ever were made illegal, the law would likely have to use the same methods to catch them as they use on drug dealers and hit men. Sting operations

And it’s worthy to note that in the case of drug dealers, those who are hooked (victims?) are also sent to jail…is there a difference?? Just wondering…

Peace
James

You are right. I think others on this thread are better able to separate the coercion/threat aspect from the abortion problem than I am. I know Holly specified separation, but I can’t seem to make my mind do it. I guess I never think about pregnancy without their being *two *parents and without their being a *community *in which the mother resides and where the child will be raised. I don’t know.

Interesting point about drugs and possession verses dealing. If cop shows are to be believed, those charges have different weight.

Yes, I agree that the grandparents hire the hit man. I see.

 

[ForGood]

I got pregnant at 17. My mom found out and told me it was an abortion or else. I was told not to tell the father. My own father didn’t know either. My mother handed me the phone book opened to abortion clinics. She gave me $300 and the car keys the following Saturday.

Would I go to jail? Would my mother? The father of the baby? My father? The abortionist? The “counselor” or nurse? Would I go to jail 20 years later after telling my story?

Hard questions, perhaps even harder answers.

 

[lizaanne]

James, or anyone else who wants to answer , could you help me see how it is plausible that law enforcement could easily and reliably determine who was coerced and who was not? I mean, if that can’t be done, how could the law ever be justly enacted?

(I’m still thinking about the hitman stuff)

I got pregnant at 17. My mom found out and told me it was an abortion or else. I was told not to tell the father. My own father didn’t know either. My mother handed me the phone book opened to abortion clinics. She gave me $300 and the car keys the following Saturday.

Would I go to jail? Would my mother? The father of the baby? My father? The abortionist? The “counselor” or nurse? Would I go to jail 20 years later after telling my story?

Hard questions, perhaps even harder answers.

This is why a judge and jury would be necessary. No one is suggesting this would be the dark ages where women are dragged to the noose and hanged for their crime without benefit of trial. There are always circumstances of EVERY crime that need to be considered when passing out punishment.

However — that being said - I still stand by my original comment, that there is no difference in the murder of the unborn and the murder of a toddler. But the circumstances may make the difference in sentencing. In both instances.

~Liza