If abortion were criminalized should women getting an abortion and abortionists face prison time?

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Debora123 said:
It just isn’t that simple in the case of abortion.

This is precisely why we don’t consider women who have had abortions as killers/murderers like we would if she had pulled a Casey Anthony.
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Yes it is. It absolutely is that simple.
Debora123 said:
Though the taking of an innocent human life is equally grave regardless of their age or stage in life, the Church doesn’t consider these women to be killers/murderers. Perhaps it is mainly to do with culpability.
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Yes she does. She does consider these women murderers, as stated by others in this post who have provided direct quotations of documents.

Leave your feminism at the door please.
 
Petergee said:
What? The Church has never said any such thing.

The Church teaches unequivocally that for a mother to deliberately procure an abortion is the mortal sin of murder. If anything, she teaches that it is worse than murdering a born child, because the unborn child is even more innocent. Abortion is the only type of murder which incurs automatic excommunication which can be lifted only by the Pope.

IF the mother was under duress from somebody else, her guilt is reduced depending on the amount of duress. She is not innocent unless the abortion was forcibly performed against her will.

However there are quite a few mothers who are not under duress, but knowingly, freely and deliberately consent to the abortion of their children.
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Right, and it is very difficult to determine her culpability in the case of abortion, which is why we can’t proclaim her as a murderer in the same light that we would someone like Casey Anthony for example.
 
FaithBuild18 said:
Yes it is. It absolutely is that simple.

Yes she does. She does consider these women murderers, as stated by others in this post who have provided direct quotations of documents.

Leave your feminism at the door please.
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Ummm, please don’t accuse me of being a “feminist” just because I don’t think women who have had abortions should get jail time. :mad:

And for your information, I AM a feminist, but not in the insulting, extreme way you mean it, and it has nothing to do with me not believing they should get jail time. You won’t find anyone more against abortion than myself. :mad:
 
I believe that women are victims of abortion in addition to the child.

We aren’t given the facts about fetal development or about how abortions are performed. Many women who have had abortions are in a lot of pain and our response is not to condemn them, but to reach our in love to these women and to help them get through the pain.
 
Debora123 said:
Ummm, please don’t accuse me of being a “feminist” just because I don’t think women who have had abortions should get jail time. :mad:

And for your information, I AM a feminist, but not in the insulting, extreme way you mean it, and it has nothing to do with me not believing they should get jail time. You won’t find anyone more against abortion than myself. :mad:
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I agree. The accusation was unnecessary, inaccurate, and unfair.
 
I’m not really sure, part of me says I don’t want to put a women in prision for an abortion for a multitude of reasons, she is probably emotially unstable somewhat, she is in a crisis pregnancy, along with other things. But if Abortion is illegal across the board in this country, a women should atleast face a probationary period or community service maybe prison time. She has done something that is illegal so she should face consequences. Plus giving women some sentence for what she did instead of just a slap on the wrist will act as a deterrent for abortion and save lives.
 
Debora123 said:
I believe that women are victims of abortion in addition to the child.

We aren’t given the facts about fetal development or about how abortions are performed. Many women who have had abortions are in a lot of pain and our response is not to condemn them, but to reach our in love to these women and to help them get through the pain.
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I know I just joined this discussion but would you give a women any punishment if she were to have an abortion?

I think jail time may be to harsh, even though I would leave open the possibility for this depending on the circumstance, repeat offender, abortion of twins. Later term pregnancy or something. But I would simply consider a probation sentence maybe community service or something instead of jail service.
 
catholictiger said:
I’m not really sure, part of me says I don’t want to put a women in prision for an abortion for a multitude of reasons, she is probably emotially unstable somewhat, she is in a crisis pregnancy, along with other things. But if Abortion is illegal across the board in this country, a women should atleast face a probationary period or community service maybe prison time. She has done something that is illegal so she should face consequences. Plus giving women some sentence for what she did instead of just a slap on the wrist will act as a deterrent for abortion and save lives.
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I believe she should definitely get some sort of penalty, but not go to prison. The abortionist, however, is a different story.
 
Debora123 said:
I believe she should definitely get some sort of penalty, but not go to prison. The abortionist, however, is a different story.
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good so we agree.

and yes the abortionist should receive many many many years in prison.
 
catholictiger said:
I know I just joined this discussion but would you give a women any punishment if she were to have an abortion?

I think jail time may be to harsh, even though I would leave open the possibility for this depending on the circumstance, repeat offender, abortion of twins. Later term pregnancy or something. But I would simply consider a probation sentence maybe community service or something instead of jail service.
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Community service is a good idea… and perhaps some mandatory rehab of some sort.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
I agree. The accusation was unnecessary, inaccurate, and unfair.
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It was ENTIRELY accurate! I read this forum regularly, I pay attention to who posts what. The funny thing is she says I shouldn’t have called her a feminist, but then she says “I AM a feminist!” :rolleyes:

Pay attention to what is true. Words should not be silenced because they are offensive, but because they are false. If my accusations are offensive and false, then I apologize. If my accusations are offensive but true, then they should be heard.
 
Debora123 said:
I believe that women are victims of abortion in addition to the child.

We aren’t given the facts about fetal development or about how abortions are performed. Many women who have had abortions are in a lot of pain and our response is not to condemn them, but to reach our in love to these women and to help them get through the pain.
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Of course! Every sinner is a victim of their own sin. This is well known. We are all suffering. Your typical murderer does indeed regret their actions. This is a part of sin and why sin is so evil. When we sin, we ALWAYS hurt ourselves. Sin can destroy us. Abortion is no different. I can promise you if you or I killed anyone we would be in a tremendous amount of pain ourselves. But this certainly doesn’t imply that there is no need for justice or that we will will not be punished either legally here on earth or in purgatory or hell.

You can’t treat abortion like a “special” case of murder. Your sympathy, yet desire for justice, should be extended to all criminals and murderers, not just pregnant deceived women.
 
The pain and torment that these women go through is all the more evident of how evil, wicked, sinful, deceiving, and twisted abortion really is. That these women could be told “It’ll be ok,” yet without anyone telling them it’s wrong, the guilt and sorrow that immediately overcomes them after completing the act, convincing them instantaneously the err of their way, really demonstrates the tumultuous gravity of such an action. I would hazard a guess that there are few crimes against God, nature, community, and self as seriously disordered as this, that one only needs to commit it once to realize, without any intervention, how wrong they were to chose it. Merely being an accomplice to the abortion, not actually performing the abortion, has this effect on people.

It is, distinctively, first degree, pre-meditated murder, and regardless of what you think the punishment is, all accomplices should be tried by a court of law accordingly.
 
I think we can discern three issues here.
  1. Should the “doctor” performing these procedures face a sentence? Certainly. The bare minimum would have to be prolonged imprisonment (or even “life without parole”, if you will) for a first offence, and stricter sentences (perhaps even the death penalty) for repeat offenders. Nothing less would have the desired deterrent effect. These guys aren’t acting “under duress” or “in pursuit of a misguided ideal”; they’re taking lives in cold blood.
  2. Should the woman undergoing an abortion be prosecuted? Yes, but we can allow a little more leeway here, especially for first offences, and take into account both extenuating circumstances (duress) and psychological capacity; perhaps a legal distinction (as exists between “first-degree murder”, “second-degree murder”, “culpable homicide”, etc.) could be made. Attempts at rehabilitation should be provided, including spiritual and psychological counselling. Repeat offences should be punished more firmly, possibly with a life sentence.
  3. Should others participating in the process (nursing staff, orderlies, etc.) be punished? Yes, as “accessories to murder”. What sort of sentencing would be appropriate doesn’t come to mind readily, so I leave it to the legal eagles out there.
(This is just wishful thinking from a guy who lives in a country which has very liberal abortion laws, at least up to 20 weeks of pregnancy - but hope is a virtue, or so I’m told.)
 
FaithBuild18 said:
The pain and torment that these women go through is all the more evident of how evil, wicked, sinful, deceiving, and twisted abortion really is. That these women could be told “It’ll be ok,” yet without anyone telling them it’s wrong, the guilt and sorrow that immediately overcomes them after completing the act, convincing them instantaneously the err of their way, really demonstrates the tumultuous gravity of such an action. I would hazard a guess that there are few crimes against God, nature, community, and self as seriously disordered as this, that one only needs to commit it once to realize, without any intervention, how wrong they were to chose it. Merely being an accomplice to the abortion, not actually performing the abortion, has this effect on people.

It is, distinctively, first degree, pre-meditated murder, and regardless of what you think the punishment is, all accomplices should be tried by a court of law accordingly.
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I am glad that the law of the land does not agree with your extreme position.
And I am a Feminist too.
 
Personanongrata said:
I am glad that the law of the land does not agree with your extreme position.
And I am a Feminist too.
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Ah of course.

Forgive me for insisting that accomplices to murder be given a fair trial. I had no idea this was an extreme position. I apologize.

Allow me to inform you that the law of the Church is a different story. The law of the land currently permits abortion freely without penalty. I find it rather extreme to be glad that the law of the land is such.

Convince me, that you are not creating additional sympathies for these criminals simply because of their gender. As a feminist, surely you don’t view women as less capable of discernment than men, therefore they should be treated equally in the court of law, held fully accountable for their actions as a man would, yes?

Honestly, I feel like the biggest feminist in this topic for insisting that women be treated equally in all aspects of civil life, including the legal system. Why is it that other feminists only want the benefits of equal treatment, including pay and work opportunities, but not the burden of equal responsibility? Perhaps I am the wrong one in this topic. Maybe, due to my -]traditional/-] Catholic beliefs, I should be agreeing with you kind women.
 
RPRPsych said:
  1. Should the woman undergoing an abortion be prosecuted? Yes, but we can allow a little more leeway here, especially for first offences, and take into account both extenuating circumstances (duress) and psychological capacity; perhaps a legal distinction (as exists between “first-degree murder”, “second-degree murder”, “culpable homicide”, etc.) could be made. Attempts at rehabilitation should be provided, including spiritual and psychological counselling. Repeat offences should be punished more firmly, possibly with a life sentence.
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How often are abortions anything other than first degree murder? Unless physically forced into the car, into the clinic, and physically held down for the procedure (and yes I do know this happens), she doesn’t just wind up getting an abortion in a swell of passion or as the result of a violent altercation between her and the child. It is pre-meditated, with the decisive intention of killing that child when she decides to get in the car and go to the abortion clinic.

If my wife goes and hires a hitman to kill me, or to kill our 5 year old son, and the hitman is the one who pulls the trigger, you better bet your behind that my wife will also face jail time, either guilty of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, or accomplice to murder, depending on the scenario and the jury. It is the same exact scenario in an abortion, but more gruesome, inhumane, and robbing a life, as others said, that is even more innocent than yours and mine. I’m not saying a life sentence for her, but she should be charged in a similar manner as one who conspires to kill a human after they’re born. How often is community service or rehab the sentence for such individuals?
 
FaithBuild18 said:
How often are abortions anything other than first degree murder? Unless physically forced into the car, into the clinic, and physically held down for the procedure (and yes I do know this happens), she doesn’t just wind up getting an abortion in a swell of passion or as the result of a violent altercation between her and the child. It is pre-meditated, with the decisive intention of killing that child when she decides to get in the car and go to the abortion clinic.

If my wife goes and hires a hitman to kill me, or to kill our 5 year old son, and the hitman is the one who pulls the trigger, you better bet your behind that my wife will also face jail time, either guilty of murder, conspiracy to commit murder, or accomplice to murder, depending on the scenario and the jury. It is the same exact scenario in an abortion, but more gruesome, inhumane, and robbing a life, as others said, that is even more innocent than yours and mine. I’m not saying a life sentence for her, but she should be charged in a similar manner as one who conspires to kill a human after they’re born. How often is community service or rehab the sentence for such individuals?
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Well, I did say “a little more leeway”, not “let them off scot-free”. 😉

And a jail sentence and spiritual / psychological rehabilitation are not mutually exclusive.

I was only trying to draw a distinction between a first-time abortion in a distressed teenager under duress (say, if her family would target her in an “honour killing” as the alternative - which is not a rare scenario in non-Western culture) and a repeat offender who simply wants to use abortion as a matter of convenience.

A just law would sentence them both, but a fair law would recognize the extenuating circumstances in the first case. They would both get punished, but the latter would be liable for a stronger sentence (up to and including the death penalty, if necessary) and the former would be offered protection and rehabilitation within the confines of the justice system.

Community service or rehab alone would be totally inappropriate, I agree.
 
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