If abortion were criminalized should women getting an abortion and abortionists face prison time?

[FaithBuild18]

**Well, I did say “a little more leeway”, not “let them off scot-free”. **

And a jail sentence and spiritual / psychological rehabilitation are not mutually exclusive.

I was only trying to draw a distinction between a first-time abortion in a distressed teenager under duress (say, if her family would target her in an “honour killing” as the alternative - which is not a rare scenario in non-Western culture) and a repeat offender who simply wants to use abortion as a matter of convenience.

A just law would sentence them both, but a fair law would recognize the extenuating circumstances in the first case. They would both get punished, but the latter would be liable for a stronger sentence (up to and including the death penalty, if necessary) and the former would be offered protection and rehabilitation within the confines of the justice system.

Community service or rehab alone would be totally inappropriate, I agree.

Aha my mistake. Yes, I agree with you my friend.

Your plan is a wise and practical one indeed.

In fact, a lot of current inmates are also given opportunities for spiritual rehabilitation. I’m a big supporter of such programs and believe they are one of the finest works of mercy we can give, while assuring that justice is also present.

 

[RPRPsych]

Aha my mistake. Yes, I agree with you my friend.

Your plan is a wise and practical one indeed.

In fact, a lot of current inmates are also given opportunities for spiritual rehabilitation. I’m a big supporter of such programs and believe they are one of the finest works of mercy we can give, while assuring that justice is also present.

Thanks!

Agreed with you on prison ministries though. I’ve never been personally involved with one, but I have worked briefly with mentally ill prisoners, and even that limited exposure was enough to convince me of what you’re saying. While a lot of abuses do go on in prisons, an ideal prison would be like this world’s version of Purgatory - doing time, but also making amends and learning to live the right way before you are finally released.

 

[Debora123]

It was ENTIRELY accurate! I read this forum regularly, I pay attention to who posts what. The funny thing is she says I shouldn’t have called her a feminist, but then she says “I AM a feminist!”

Pay attention to what is true. Words should not be silenced because they are offensive, but because they are false. If my accusations are offensive and false, then I apologize. If my accusations are offensive but true, then they should be heard.

I am a feminist in the same sense that JPII is a feminist. I believe in things like equal wages for work and women’s right to vote. I am NOT the type of extreme/pro-choice feminist you insinuate.

If you really read these posts so often and you really know me that well (as you claim), you’d know this.

Your accusation is completely offensive and false, but don’t worry, I’m not expecting you to actually apologize.

 

[Elizabeth502]

If my accusations are offensive and false, then I apologize. If my accusations are offensive but true, then they should be heard.

Your accusations are offensive and false.

I normally don’t fight other people’s battles for them, but sometimes I am quite annoyed at caricatures and labels which do not apply. You are reading selectively and jumping to stereotyped conclusions.

It’s important to read and hear a variety of Catholic media. Those of us who do so regularly (such as, listen to EWTN radio and watch EWTN TV) know Johnette Benkovic rather well as a broadcast personality. She has had innumerable shows (Women of Grace, The Abundant Life) which have featured guests who differentiate the true feminism (a moral & spiritual feminism) vs. that of the secular order. In doing so, she and her guests cite Papal addresses to the faithful, discuss the true feminists among the saints, etc. Ditto for Teresa Tomeo and Colleen Caroll Campbell, who make similar distinctions in their writings and on their shows, including through their guests as well. This is a message which is in the forefront of orthodox Catholic media: National Catholic Register, First Things/The Prioress – many other books, publications, and shows. All of these communications verify that there are contradictory versions of feminism: that of the Church vs. that of the World.

It’s also respectful to take other people at their word. Debora, you, and I all get to define how we fit or do not within modern terminology, and as long as we can defend ourselves (and she has) within those definitions, then you should accept what she says.

What Debora did was re-contextualize feminism as a protection of Life issue.

 

[FaithBuild18]

I am a feminist in the same sense that JPII is a feminist. I believe in things like equal wages for work and women’s right to vote. I am NOT the type of extreme/pro-choice feminist you insinuate.

If you really read these posts so often and you really know me that well (as you claim), you’d know this.

Your accusation is completely offensive and false, but don’t worry, I’m not expecting you to actually apologize.

No actually I never insinuated that you are an extreme/pro-choice feminist. All I said was to leave your feminism at the door, go back and read it and you will see. But instead of seeing that for what it was, I apparently triggered a soft spot in you and you became superfluously defensive and aggressive. I know exactly what type of feminist you are and the fact of the matter remains that you seek to pardon these women of their crimes simply because of their gender. Whether you’re willing to admit that is a different story, and moreover, whether or not I should be agreeing with such a sentiment is something I’m currently debating within myself.

 

[FaithBuild18]

Your accusations are offensive and false.

I normally don’t fight other people’s battles for them, but sometimes I am quite annoyed at caricatures and labels which do not apply. You are reading selectively and jumping to stereotyped conclusions.

It’s important to read and hear a variety of Catholic media. Those of us who do so regularly (such as, listen to EWTN radio and watch EWTN TV) know Johnette Benkovic rather well as a broadcast personality. She has had innumerable shows (Women of Grace, The Abundant Life) which have featured guests who differentiate the true feminism (a moral & spiritual feminism) vs. that of the secular order. In doing so, she and her guests cite Papal addresses to the faithful, discuss the true feminists among the saints, etc. Ditto for Teresa Tomeo and Colleen Caroll Campbell, who make similar distinctions in their writings and on their shows, including through their guests as well. This is a message which is in the forefront of orthodox Catholic media: National Catholic Register, First Things/The Prioress – many other books, publications, and shows. All of these communications verify that there are contradictory versions of feminism: that of the Church vs. that of the World.

It’s also respectful to take other people at their word. Debora, you, and I all get to define how we fit or do not within modern terminology, and as long as we can defend ourselves (and she has) within those definitions, then you should accept what she says.

What Debora did was re-contextualize feminism as a protection of Life issue.

You’re jumping to stereotyped conclusions by assuming that I have a particular definition of a feminist! I in truth did not say a single inaccurate thing about her. When did I ever get to defend myself before you jumped all over me? You were so pre-occupied with your over sensitivities and defence that you never really bothered to question what I was insinuating when I told her, rather you rashly assumed a particular context for your own self!

Above all, neither of you have actually countered any of the arguments I’ve made regarding why women should be tried for abortion as in any other case of murder.

 

[Debora123]

No actually I never insinuated that you are an extreme/pro-choice feminist. All I said was to leave your feminism at the door, go back and read it and you will see. I know exactly what type of feminist you are and the fact of the matter remains that you seek to pardon these women of their crimes simply because of their gender. Whether you’re willing to admit that is a different story, and whether or not I should be agreeing with such a sentiment is something I’m currently debating within myself.

Ok, several things wrong with your post.

First of all, did I say that I “wish to pardon these women based on gender?”

Or is that simply your assumption/fragment of your imagination?

Well, considering the reasons I gave for why I don’t think they should go to jail had absolutely NOTHING to do with gender, than we’ll both have to conclude it’s the latter.

I don’t think the father of the child should go to jail either, and he’s obviously not a woman. Also, I’ve stated that I think that the abortionist should get jail time… regardless of whether the abortionist is male or female. So no. This obviously has nothing to do with gender.

Second, if you really knew what type of feminist I am, then why would you even say “please leave your feminism at the door” if this type of feminism is based on Christian principals and has nothing to do with being pro-abortion in any way shape or form?

I would advise you to just stop. You’re only digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole.

 

[Elizabeth502]

When did I ever get to defend myself before you jumped all over me?

Your words and your tone are clear, here and earlier.
We assumed nothing. You vehemently denied her positive context of feminism.

Above all, neither of you have actually countered any of the arguments I’ve made regarding why/] women should be tried for abortion as in any other case of murder.

I weighed in already on this thread. You obviously missed that in your haste as well. It (women tried for murder) won’t be happening in this country any time soon. I would prefer to see other remedies, which I’ve enumerated on threads of long ago.

 

[Debora123]

Above all, neither of you have actually countered any of the arguments I’ve made regarding why women should be tried for abortion as in any other case of murder.

I’ve stated multiple times that I DO think the mother should get some sort of penalty. Community service and mandatory rehab of some sort were specifically suggested by me.

I just don’t think she should go to jail.

The reason? It would be nearly impossible to determine culpability.

 

[FaithBuild18]

Ok, several things wrong with your post.

First of all, did I say that I “wish to pardon these women based on gender?”

Or is that simply your assumption/fragment of your imagination?

Well, considering the reasons I gave for why I don’t think they should go to jail had absolutely NOTHING to do with gender, than we’ll both have to conclude it’s the latter.

I don’t think the father of the child should go to jail either, and he’s obviously not a woman. Also, I’ve stated that I think that the abortionist should get jail time… regardless of whether the abortionist is male or female. So no. This obviously has nothing to do with gender.

Second, if you really knew what type of feminist I am, then why would you even say “please leave your feminism at the door” if this type of feminism is based on Christian principals and has nothing to do with being pro-abortion in any way shape or form?

I would advise you to just stop. You’re only digging yourself into a bigger and bigger hole.

Nothing is wrong with my post. You need not say that you wish to pardon these women because of their gender in order for you to actually be trying to pardon them because of their gender. Of course you aren’t going to actually say it, I would never expect somebody to say such at thing.

As previously stated, I never insinuated that you are pro-abortion in any way shape or form.

Clearly your understanding of a Christian perspective of feminism is distorted. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9549800&postcount=59. You cannot rationalize your desire to let women essentially walk free after ordering an abortion by claiming it to be informed by a Christian perspective of feminism, when what you are advocating undermines Catholic doctrine.

 

[FaithBuild18]

I’ve stated multiple times that I DO think the mother should get some sort of penalty. Community service and mandatory rehab of some sort were specifically suggested by me.

I just don’t think she should go to jail.

The reason? It would be nearly impossible to determine culpability.

No more impossible than it is to determine culpability in the thousands of other reoccurring examples of conspiracy to commit murder and being an accomplice to murder. The court of law is quite used to these kinds of situations. Case in point - man 1 hires man 2 to kill man 3. Not so uncommon. Man 1 will always get more than just community service. He will more than likely face a serious jail sentence. Sometimes he himself will be charged with murder. Abortion is similar but many times more vile. Please do not attempt to mitigate the gravity of abortion or label it as anything but murder.

 

[Debora123]

Nothing is wrong with my post. You need not say that you wish to pardon these women because of their gender in order for you to actually be trying to pardon them because of their gender. Of course you aren’t going to actually say it, I would never expect somebody to say such at thing.

Ok, so you continue to think I am a liar. I guess there’s nothing else I can say to that because you’re obviously going to think what you want.

As previously stated, I never insinuated that you are pro-abortion in any way shape or form.

Clearly your understanding of a Christian perspective of feminism is distorted. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9549800&postcount=59. You cannot rationalize your desire to let women essentially walk free after ordering an abortion by claiming it to be informed by a Christian perspective of feminism, when what you are advocating undermines Catholic doctrine.

Once again, my belief that a mother/father should not get jail time for abortion has NOTHING TO DO with gender, and therefore nothing to do with ANY type of feminism. Are you even reading what I’m writing?

Also to note, It is interesting that you think my perspective of feminism is distorted. All you know regarding my perspective of feminism is what I’ve told you - that it’s the same type of feminism that JPII spoke about in 1998, and the same type of feminism that supports things like equal wages for work and right to vote.

 

[Debora123]

No more impossible than it is to determine culpability in the thousands of other reoccurring examples of conspiracy to commit murder and being an accomplice to murder.

Well, I completely disagree.

 

[Debora123]

Please do not attempt to mitigate the gravity of abortion or label it as anything but murder.

Oh I wouldn’t dream of labeling abortion as anything less than murder - a slaughtering of an innocent human life.

With that being said, please refrain from insinuating that I labeled it as anything less than that.

 

[catholictiger]

Nothing is wrong with my post. You need not say that you wish to pardon these women because of their gender in order for you to actually be trying to pardon them because of their gender. Of course you aren’t going to actually say it, I would never expect somebody to say such at thing.

As previously stated, I never insinuated that you are pro-abortion in any way shape or form.

Clearly your understanding of a Christian perspective of feminism is distorted. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9549800&postcount=59. You cannot rationalize your desire to let women essentially walk free after ordering an abortion by claiming it to be informed by a Christian perspective of feminism, when what you are advocating undermines Catholic doctrine.

let me say this because I agree with her position. I really don’t think she is just saying women should get a free walk because they are women. She thinks that because women are in a crisis situation, and they are probably very emotionally unstable that being really harsh on them ins’t a good thing to do. She doesn’t think that women should get a free pass on abortion. I’m still working out in my own head what the punishment should be but I don’t think jail time should be the every time sentence. But there should def be a punishment.

now while I think about this the thought does run through my head which is they are killing a human being, no matter how old it seems like we should give them all the same punishment. I’m just not sure if that is what is best for the women in this situation. This is a different situation then a women who murders or is even an accomplice or plans a murder and pays someone else to do it. I think as far as punishment goes you need write a lot of new laws in order to handle abortion cases.

 

[FaithBuild18]

Ok, so you continue to think I am a liar. I guess there’s nothing else I can say to that because you’re obviously going to think what you want.

Once again, my belief that a mother/father should not get jail time for abortion has NOTHING TO DO with gender, and therefore nothing to do with ANY type of feminism. Are you even reading what I’m writing?

Yes, of course I’m reading what you’re writing. And you actually are right. I firmly believe what I believe and you won’t be able to convince me otherwise. I do seriously think that your sentiment is fueled solely by your sympathies towards women, since you are a woman. I’m sorry, it’s just what I believe and I can’t lie and say I believe you just to make you feel better. I just don’t. I’m not saying I think you are deliberately lying to me, I’m just saying I think you’re wrong. I’m sorry that this upsets you, and I certainly understand why it would.

Also to note, It is interesting that you think my perspective of feminism is distorted. All you know regarding my perspective of feminism is what I’ve told you - that it’s the same type of feminism that JPII spoke about in 1998, and the same type of feminism that supports things like equal wages for work and right to vote.

Indeed I do think your feminism is distorted. I do not think it is the same feminism that JPII spoke about. Therefore I think it’s distorted. Simple as that. There are more than two options here, I don’t necessarily have to believe you are either a pro-choice feminist or a “JPII feminst”, it is possible for me to view you as something in between. I think you attempt to be the most virtuous sort of Christian-based feminist possible, yet I still maintain that you extend additional desires and sympathies towards women simply because they are women.

 

[FaithBuild18]

let me say this because I agree with her position. I really don’t think she is just saying women should get a free walk because they are women. She thinks that because women are in a crisis situation, and they are probably very emotionally unstable that being really harsh on them ins’t a good thing to do. She doesn’t think that women should get a free pass on abortion. I’m still working out in my own head what the punishment should be but I don’t think jail time should be the every time sentence. But there should def be a punishment.

now while I think about this the thought does run through my head which is they are killing a human being, no matter how old it seems like we should give them all the same punishment. I’m just not sure if that is what is best for the women in this situation. This is a different situation then a women who murders or is even an accomplice or plans a murder and pays someone else to do it. I think as far as punishment goes you need write a lot of new laws in order to handle abortion cases.

Do you have any idea how many murderers are in a crisis situation when they decide to murder? This is my point exactly. It is easier for you two to relate to women who are in these situations and to imagine what it would be like to be in these situations. That’s why you are being more liberal in your judgement of justice. But it is no different than an ordinary pre-meditated murder. It is exactly the same, and culpability can be determined just as easily as normal murder. Your barrier in conceiving of this stems from your misunderstanding of standard criminals. They aren’t all just whack job, evil rooted people you know. Many of them lived perfectly normal, good, healthy lives until disaster struck and they had no idea how to handle the situation, and now they spend every waking moment regretting what they’ve done. But our justice system sorts it out with little difficulty. But since it is easier for you to place yourself in the shoes of a woman facing a potential abortion, and thus you have greater understanding of the situation, you view it as a special circumstance. I assure you, it is not. It is murder, no less.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I still maintain that you extend additional desires and sympathies towards women simply because they are women.

Or maybe she just knows women because she is one! What a concept!

Or maybe she is thinking with the Church. The pastoral arm of the Church does not regard the best response for abortion to be criminal prosecution. Some clergy may occasionally talk that way, in terms of idealizing future legislation, but most clergy are focused on The Now and on current activism. That is an activism oriented toward results, by which is meant (a) supporting the woman, (b) counseling the woman, including offering other alternatives, (c) suggesting and even providing various resources to the woman.

Thus, this approach can be called

extending sympathies towards women because they are women.

in that they are the ones most physically affected, they are the ones who perceive themselves to be “in crisis,” etc.

But wait, I guess activist pro-Life priests are mere feminists!

 

[Debora123]

Yes, of course I’m reading what you’re writing. And you actually are right. I firmly believe what I believe and you won’t be able to convince me otherwise. I do seriously think that your sentiment is fueled solely by your sympathies towards women, since you are a woman. I’m sorry, it’s just what I believe and I can’t lie and say I believe you just to make you feel better. I just don’t. I’m not saying I think you are deliberately lying to me, I’m just saying I think you’re wrong. I’m sorry that this upsets you, and I certainly understand why it would.

Since you wouldn’t take my word for it, I’ve given you logical explanations to back up my claim that gender has nothing to do with this - the fact that I don’t think the fathers should get jail time either, even if they are just as involved as the mother is in the abortion process, and the fact that I still think the abortionist should go to jail… whether a woman or a man.

If you continue to think I’m blatantly lying then I’m not sure why you want to continue in this discussion with someone who is just lying through their teeth.

Indeed I do think your feminism is distorted. I do not think it is the same feminism that JPII spoke about. Therefore I think it’s distorted. Simple as that. There are more than two options here, I don’t necessarily have to believe you are either a pro-choice feminist or a “JPII feminst”, it is possible for me to view you as something in between. I think you attempt to be the most virtuous sort of Christian-based feminist possible, yet I still maintain that you extend additional desires and sympathies towards women simply because they are women.

Haha, here you go again thinking and accusing me of being a liar.

Why are you even talking to me if you won’t believe a word I say to you and you’re just going to keep assuming the opposite of what I tell you even though you don’t even know me??

 

[FaithBuild18]

With that being said, please refrain from insinuating that I labeled it as anything less than that.

You indeed treat it less than that, by saying that one guilty of such a crime should be given a lesser sentence than one guilty of an identical situation with the lone difference being the child having been born. It is an inconsistency.