If abortion were criminalized should women getting an abortion and abortionists face prison time?

[catholictiger]

Do you have any idea how many murderers are in a crisis situation when they decide to murder? This is my point exactly. It is easier for you two to relate to women who are in these situations and to imagine what it would be like to be in these situations. That’s why you are being more liberal in your judgement of justice. But it is no different than an ordinary pre-meditated murder. It is exactly the same, and culpability can be determined just as easily as normal murder. Your barrier in conceiving of this stems from your misunderstanding of standard criminals. They aren’t all just whack job, evil rooted people you know. Many of them lived perfectly normal, good, healthy lives until disaster struck and they had no idea how to handle the situation, and now they spend every waking moment regretting what they’ve done. But our justice system sorts it out with little difficulty. But since it is easier for you to place yourself in the shoes of a woman facing a potential abortion, and thus you have greater understanding of the situation, you view it as a special circumstance. I assure you, it is not. It is murder, no less.

just for the sake of argument what would your punishment be for a women who took an abortion pill acquired from the black market. Pill is RU486

what would be the punishment for a women having a first trimester abortion, a second trimester abortion, and third trimester abortion.

also I think prisions should be for rehabilitation not simply punishment.

What I am pushing is trying to help out the women as much as possible while still trying to be just. Maybe my position is to liberal but this is why we have these discussions.

 

[FaithBuild18]

Since you wouldn’t take my word for it, I’ve given you logical explanations to back up my claim that gender has nothing to do with this - the fact that I don’t think the fathers should get jail time either, even if they are just as involved as the mother is in the abortion process, and the fact that I still think the abortionist should go to jail… whether a woman or a man.

If you continue to think I’m blatantly lying then I’m not sure why you want to continue in this discussion with someone who is just lying through their teeth.

Haha, here you go again thinking and accusing me of being a liar.

Why are you even talking to me if you won’t believe a word I say to you and you’re just going to keep assuming the opposite of what I tell you even though you don’t even know me??

Please calm down. You either did not read thoroughly or you fundamentally misunderstood. I told you clearly that I do not think you are deliberately lying to me. I said I don’t believe you. There is a difference and if you cannot distinguish such a difference that is not my problem. What’s more is I said I was sorry.

 

[Gods_Peace]

Interfering with a pre-born humans life or deciding it does not possess the right to live is the worst kind of murder their is. So the men and women who want to defend this right need to stand up, and seperate themselves from those who are in darkness.

 

[Debora123]

let me say this because I agree with her position. I really don’t think she is just saying women should get a free walk because they are women. She thinks that because women are in a crisis situation, and they are probably very emotionally unstable that being really harsh on them ins’t a good thing to do. She doesn’t think that women should get a free pass on abortion. I’m still working out in my own head what the punishment should be but I don’t think jail time should be the every time sentence. But there should def be a punishment.

Exactly. Thank you.

A lot of people on this thread agree with my position, yet for some reason I’m the one person whose character this poster decided to personally attack.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Please calm down.

:slapfight:

 

[Debora123]

Please calm down. You either did not read thoroughly or you fundamentally misunderstood. I told you clearly that I do not think you are deliberately lying to me. I said I don’t believe you. There is a difference and if you cannot distinguish such a difference that is not my problem. What’s more is I said I was sorry.

“I don’t think you’re lying about what your views are, but I don’t believe what you’re telling me your views are, is what they actually are… hmmm.” I guess I must be really stupid, because this does not logically follow in my head. The only person I would say this to is an insane person who isn’t in touch with who they are or what they themselves believe in.

I’m still not sure why I’m getting so much scrutiny from you when there are plenty of other posters here who agree with my position.

 

[FaithBuild18]

just for the sake of argument what would your punishment be for a women who took an abortion pill acquired from the black market. Pill is RU486

what would be the punishment for a women having a first trimester abortion, a second trimester abortion, and third trimester abortion.

also I think prisions should be for rehabilitation not simply punishment.

What I am pushing is trying to help out the women as much as possible while still trying to be just. Maybe my position is to liberal but this is why we have these discussions.

I’m not in any position to sentence a particular person to a particular punishment.

But if I were an attorney I would charge the first person with murder and the others as an accomplice. I would expect for the sentences to be identical to situations of killing post-birth children.

 

[catholictiger]

I’m not in any position to sentence a particular person to a particular punishment.

But if I were an attorney I would charge the first person with murder and the others as an accomplice. I would expect for the sentences to be identical to situations of killing post-birth children.

ok that is understandable but as far as the first person goes would that be the doctor, if this is the case we don’t disagree on this point

 

[Debora123]

You indeed treat it less than that, by saying that one guilty of such a crime should be given a lesser sentence than one guilty of an identical situation with the lone difference being the child having been born. It is an inconsistency.

I’ve explained this multiple times.

It’s about culpability.

Not about the deed itself being lesser.

Kind of like how a person who is pronounced insane is “innocent for reason of insanity” even though they may have killed people.

It doesn’t mean that it is any less wrong that those people were killed, it just means that the “culpability” of the killer is lessened.

You may not agree that the mother shouldn’t get jail time, but the culpability thing I speak of is not a hard concept to grasp. Especially in Catholicism when we speak about moral culpability all the time.

 

[catholictiger]

let me make something clear if you think that abortion should carry the same charge as accomplice to murder. In California it would be if it was first degree 25 years in prison at minimum. (this is just the first state I saw)

 

[FaithBuild18]

“I don’t think you’re lying about what your views are, but I don’t believe what you’re telling me your views are… hmmm.” I guess I must be really stupid, because this does not logically follow in my head. The only person I would say this to is an insane person who isn’t in touch with who they are or what they themselves believe in.

It actually makes perfect sense exactly the way I said it. There may be a typographical error in your polite paraphrase, so I cannot comment on that. There are indeed many cases in life when people hold views of themselves that are not actually representative of themselves. What we are, and what we think we are, are two entirely different things.

I’m still not sure why I’m getting so much scrutiny from you when there are plenty of other posters here who agree with my position.

Because the others are not nearly as aggressive and defensive as you, and have thus either backed down, compromised, or engaged more civilly.

 

[livingwordunity]

I’m not in any position to sentence a particular person to a particular punishment.

But if I were an attorney I would charge the first person with murder and the others as an accomplice. I would expect for the sentences to be identical to situations of killing post-birth children.

That’s a good point to bring up. What do most people think of mothers who kill their children after they are born? It’s a tragedy either way. Probably if the body of the aborted baby or a picture of the body could be brought to court it would make a difference.

 

[catholictiger]

I’ve explained this multiple times.

It’s about culpability.

Not about the deed itself being lesser.

Kind of like how a person who is pronounced insane is “innocent for reason of insanity” even though they may have killed people.

It doesn’t mean that it is any less wrong that those people were killed, it just means that the “culpability” of the killer is lessened.

You may not agree that the mother shouldn’t get jail time, but the culpability thing I speak of is not a hard concept to grasp. Especially in Catholicism when we speak about moral culpability all the time.

yes exactly lets say a women is told by her father, you must have an abortion, here is a place you can get it done. she goes gets an abortion and when she is walking out police storm the place she gets arrested for having an abortion along with all the staff and doctor of the place. I would think in court that because her father forced her to do it, well told her to do it, should would be less morally culpable then a women who just went to the abortion clinic to get an abortion without being force. Personally I believe most women wouldn’t get it just out of inconvenience they would have it. Most people who would have it, is if it had to do for me dyer situations. For example women may be poor and if she gets pregnant she will loose her Job so the only way to save her job is to get an abortion. Is she guilty of a crime yes, is she as guilty as someone who has an abortion just because they don’t want a child now no. Should a women like this get a jail sentence not to sure.

 

[FaithBuild18]

ok that is understandable but as far as the first person goes would that be the doctor, if this is the case we don’t disagree on this point

Yes, in the second situations you described, the doctor should be charged with murder and the women as accomplices. Good progress here! But in the first case since the woman procured these pills on her own (if that’s the case) and she herself aborted the child (via swallowing the pills on her own), then I think it is she who should be charged with murder.

let me make something clear if you think that abortion should carry the same charge as accomplice to murder. In California it would be if it was first degree 25 years in prison at minimum. (this is just the first state I saw)

Yes ma’am, that sounds about right.

 

[Debora123]

It actually makes perfect sense exactly the way I said it. There may be a typographical error in your polite paraphrase, so I cannot comment on that. There are indeed many cases in life when people hold views of themselves that are not actually representative of themselves. What we are, and what we think we are, are two entirely different things.

And you’re basically claiming to know me better than I know myself and then trying to tell me that this makes perfect sense.

Because the others are not nearly as aggressive and defensive as you, and have thus either backed down, compromised, or engaged more civilly.

I wouldn’t say I’m aggressive. I’ve said nothing in attack of your character and have not said a single “aggressive” word here.

The reason I’m “more defensive” than the others is because you’re attacking ME. So of course I’m going to defend myself when someone makes false assumptions of me, tells me I’m thinking things that I’m not actually thinking, and accuses me of things that are not true.

If you want to be civil, then I suggest you speak about this subject objectively and discuss your opposing views, rather than get personal and attack my character which is precisely what you started doing a few pages ago when you told me to “keep my feminism at the door.”

 

[FaithBuild18]

I’ve explained this multiple times.

It’s about culpability.

Not about the deed itself being lesser.

Kind of like how a person who is pronounced insane is “innocent for reason of insanity” even though they may have killed people.

It doesn’t mean that it is any less wrong that those people were killed, it just means that the “culpability” of the killer is lessened.

You may not agree that the mother shouldn’t get jail time, but the culpability thing I speak of is not a hard concept to grasp. Especially in Catholicism when we speak about moral culpability all the time.

And again, this is not an issue unique to abortion. Courts face this all the time in your standard murders. It may not be an accurate form of judgement 100% of the time, but it is a practical means and the best we’ve got. They can certainly do this for abortions as well. It is no different than if a woman paid somebody to kill her child 1 hour after it was born, at which point she would be charged with murder/accomplice, and culpability will be assessed and determined by a court of law, though not always perfectly, but at the least to an effectual approximation. I’m sure you can look up cases in which women have had their infants voluntarily killed (unfortunately).

 

[catholictiger]

Yes, in the second situations you described, the doctor shoul be charged with murder and the women as accomplices. Good progress here! But in the first case since the woman procured these pills on her own (if that’s the case) and she herself aborted the child (via swallowing the pills on her own, then I think it is she who should be charged with murder.

Yes ma’am, that sounds about right.

first not a ma’am, doesn’t really matter

but I don’t disagree with the murder part on the pill. Glad to see we agree on the doctor part.

But on the 25 year thing, you really think a person who is an accomplice to premeditated murder of any person post birth, has the same culpability of someone who has had an abortion.

excluding being forced to do it.

you think 25 years would be good for a women who had an abortion because her job would be in jeopardy

you think 25 years would be good for a women who worried about her parents finding out that she was pregnant

you think 25 years would be good for a women who couldn’t finically support another child.

now I don’t think any of these are moral they are all horrible things and she must pay for what she did, but 25 years seems like it would fit under the cruel and unusual punishment category.

 

[Debora123]

Originally Posted by Debora123

Sigh

Yes, I know what your stance on the matter is, and that’s fine, we agree to disagree.

If you look at the history of our correspondences, you will see that I wrote that post and explained culpability to you because you seemed to be having a hard time separating my views on the morality/severity of abortion and the culpability of certain people involved.

• “having a hard time” is the nice way of putting it… but you’ve been making false accusations towards me with almost every post.

 

[FaithBuild18]

first not a ma’am, doesn’t really matter

but I don’t disagree with the murder part on the pill. Glad to see we agree on the doctor part.

But on the 25 year thing, you really think a person who is an accomplice to premeditated murder of any person post birth, has the same culpability of someone who has had an abortion.

excluding being forced to do it.

you think 25 years would be good for a women who had an abortion because her job would be in jeopardy

you think 25 years would be good for a women who worried about her parents finding out that she was pregnant

you think 25 years would be good for a women who couldn’t finically support another child.

now I don’t think any of these are moral they are all horrible things and she must pay for what she did, but 25 years seems like it would fit under the cruel and unusual punishment category.

Haha, terribly sorry for calling you a ma’am. Got a little mixed up with who posted what .

But yeah, I do think that. Honestly, many of the situations you have listed apply to those who murder post-birth as well. I know women who have children already born who are in financial crises, and whose jobs are at risk. Most of society can agree that under no circumstances would we rationalize these to be valid reasons for killing their child. Unfortunately, only people like you and me and other Christians agree that these reasons do not permit a woman to kill her child after OR before its born. That much we can agree on.

But my question for you is, would a woman who has a 1 day old, or a 5 year old, or a 13 year old child, who struggles to keep her job because she has to rear children, who cannot possibly continue to finance their lives, and whose parents despise the woman’s children for placing a burden on their daughter’s life, if such a woman would kill that 1 day old or 5 year old or 13 year old child because of any of those reasons, would the law lessen her culpability?

IF the answer is yes, then sure, a woman who aborts her child for any of those reasons would also have a lessened culpability. The only thing, the ONLY THING, I am trying to make clear, is that a woman who kills her child before it is born, should be charged identically to one who kills her child after it is born. But if the average sentence is 25 years, even given those circumstances she is still going to face jail time if she kills her child after it is born. Then too it shall be if she kills it before it is born.

Perhaps an issue that we need to touch on is the sentencing for those who are accomplices to the murder of post-born children. Perhaps that in itself is too harsh, I can’t really say. I just say that abortion should unequivocally be treated the same.

 

[catholictiger]

Haha, terribly sorry for calling you a ma’am. Got a little mixed up with who posted what .

But yeah, I do think that. Honestly, many of the situations you have listed apply to those who murder post-birth as well. I know women who have children already born who are in financial crises, and whose jobs are at risk. Most of society can agree that under no circumstances would we rationalize these to be valid reasons for killing their child. Unfortunately, only people like you and me and other Christians agree that these reasons do not permit a woman to kill her child after OR before its born. That much we can agree on.

But my question for you is, would a woman who has a 1 day old, or a 5 year old, or a 13 year old child, who struggles to keep her job because she has to rear children, who cannot possibly continue to finance their lives, and whose parents despise the woman’s children for placing a burden on their daughter’s life, if such a woman would kill that 1 day old or 5 year old or 13 year old child because of any of those reasons, would the law lessen her culpability?

IF the answer is yes, then sure, a woman who aborts her child for any of those reasons would also have a lessened culpability. The only thing, the ONLY THING, I am trying to make clear, is that a woman who kills her child before it is born, should be charged identically to one who kills her child after it is born. But if the average sentence is 25 years, even given those circumstances she is still going to face jail time if she kills her child after it is born. Then too it shall be if she kills it before it is born.

Perhaps an issue that we need to touch on is the sentencing for those who are accomplices to the murder of post-born children. Perhaps that in itself is too harsh, I can’t really say. I just say that abortion should unequivocally be treated the same.

I understand that but while it is absolulty no different in what you are killing, there is a difference in killing a 1 5 or 13 year old than killing a unborn human being. The women can’t see what she is killing, she would see what she is kiling of a one year old. She would probably be tricked into killing her child, instead of a women just going into the abortion clinic and saying get it done now. They are tricked into doing it. It just doesn’t seem like aborting a baby and killing a one year old is the same thing. It just doesn’t take the same amount of will power I guess you could say even though evil will power. I really honestly thing that women who is killing something that should clearly to her be human should be punished worse than a women who is killing something that to her may not be clearly human. They are both human and neither action is worse or better than the other. But to consider them the same type of act as far as what goes into it is a stretch.