If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

[AlwaysCurious]

What should the charge be, and how should it be punished?

I ask this because liberal news commentators ask this question to pro-life politicians, who never answer the question, apparently because they think it will make them look bad. (I’ve seen Chris Matthews do this more than once–it’s his ace-in-the-hole when talking abortion.) I guess it’s easier to talk about punishing the doctors.

 

[1ke]

The same as it was befor 1973.

 

[KostyaJMJ]

10-20 years

IRL the question is simply a tactic for shutting down any discussion. Until people are more comfortable with putting their daughters behind bars, the pro-life movement should focus on punishing the doctor and not the woman.

 

[cargau]

What should the charge be, and how should it be punished?

I ask this because liberal news commentators ask this question to pro-life politicians, who never answer the question, apparently because they think it will make them look bad. (I’ve seen Chris Matthews do this more than once–it’s his ace-in-the-hole when talking abortion.) I guess it’s easier to talk about punishing the doctors.

What would the charge be if a parent murdered a one month old baby?

A society that condones the destruction of it’s most vulnerable is in a very bad place. While mothers struggle to move past an unexpected and unwelcome pregnancy, destroying the child should never be an option.

People need to see that a child in the womb is a human being that is sacred and deserving of the same rights we all have.

 

[Will_B]

10-20 years

IRL the question is simply a tactic for shutting down any discussion. Until people are more comfortable with putting their daughters behind bars, the pro-life movement should focus on punishing the doctor and not the woman.

Good Answer !!

Over the years our society has looked at the baby in the womb as a blob of tissue and not at a baby… It’s a way of giving false comfort to those who choose abortion.

However the money makers in the abortion industry should be the ones punished for leading our society to where it is now… It’s called brain washing or indoctrination.

We need to re-educate our children on the truth of when life begins.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

At the most, probation. But I don’t think they need to be punished because they have been effectively brainwashed to believe that abortion is a solution to a problem instead of THE problem that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The punishment is the torture of realizing that they killed their own baby. It’s a lot worse than being behind bars.

After abortion has been illegal for, say, 25 years, you could maybe start giving out probationary sentences because by then, the women would know it is illegal and would be choosing to break the law.

The abortion providers need to be prosecuted for mass murder, however.

 

[Pug]

At the most, probation. But I don’t think they need to be punished because they have been effectively brainwashed to believe that abortion is a solution to a problem instead of THE problem that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The punishment is the torture of realizing that they killed their own baby. It’s a lot worse than being behind bars.

After abortion has been illegal for, say, 25 years, you could maybe start giving out probationary sentences because by then, the women would know it is illegal and would be choosing to break the law.

The abortion providers need to be prosecuted for mass murder, however.

How come one member of society is counted as brainwashed and the other isn’t? They live in the same corrupting society.

 

[epan]

At the most, probation. But I don’t think they need to be punished because they have been effectively brainwashed to believe that abortion is a solution to a problem instead of THE problem that will affect them for the rest of their lives. The punishment is the torture of realizing that they killed their own baby. It’s a lot worse than being behind bars.

After abortion has been illegal for, say, 25 years, you could maybe start giving out probationary sentences because by then, the women would know it is illegal and would be choosing to break the law.

The abortion providers need to be prosecuted for mass murder, however.

I don’t understand the difference between the pregnant woman and the abortion provider. I know that there are some physicians who will provide drugs for a paycheck, or a medical marijuana card. I have never heard of one performing a surgical procedure which the physician thought was ethically wrong.

 

[AlwaysCurious]

What would the charge be if a parent murdered a one month old baby?

A society that condones the destruction of it’s most vulnerable is in a very bad place. While mothers struggle to move past an unexpected and unwelcome pregnancy, destroying the child should never be an option.

People need to see that a child in the womb is a human being that is sacred and deserving of the same rights we all have.

Good answer. For better or worse, I just wish pro-life politicians would have such a quick retort ready (even though no one can do justice to such a tremendous issue with only sound bytes and one-liners) rather than looking like they haven’t thought through the position, or are afraid to answer the question. We can’t just give the whole issue away because we’re afraid of the ultimate ramifications.

But I also agree with the other poster who suggested some measure of clemency as we reshape the culture and help people see the baby as a human being, and let that sink in for a number of years before “bringing down the hammer.”

 

[jbarbaretta]

I don’t understand the difference between the pregnant woman and the abortion provider. I know that there are some physicians who will provide drugs for a paycheck, or a medical marijuana card. I have never heard of one performing a surgical procedure which the physician thought was ethically wrong.

pregnant woman = scared, often coerced, looking for a way out of a difficult situation with society promising that is the correct “choice” (usually - which is why I wouldn’t necessarily always give them a pass. The woman on her 7th abortion has a pretty good idea of what she is doing.)

provider = murder for cash. (usually - some actually believe that what they are doing is empowering women, allowing them to do more with their lives. They don’t see the long term mental health issues they are causing.) Setting sentencing guidelines that can include a good healthy sit in jail and require automatic loss of your ability to practice in the state in question should give the provider a chance to think about what he/she is doing, however)

I know that there are some physicians…

2 wrongs do not make a right.

I have never heard of one performing a surgical procedure which the physician thought was ethically wrong.

There is actually some interesting statistics on the surprisingly large percentage of surgeries that are medically unnecessary. I’ve heard former Pxxxxxx Parenthood employees say that they were trained that if the pregnancy test came back negative to tell the “patient” that it was unreliable and they needed an ultrasound to confirm. Then pick any blob they could find and tell the “patient” that she was pregnant and they could take care of it right then and there – it would be easy to just get it over with, no one would need to know she could just get on with her life.

 

[epan]

pregnant woman = scared, often coerced, looking for a way out of a difficult situation with society promising that is the correct “choice” (usually - which is why I wouldn’t necessarily always give them a pass. The woman on her 7th abortion has a pretty good idea of what she is doing.)

provider = murder for cash. (usually - some actually believe that what they are doing is empowering women, allowing them to do more with their lives. They don’t see the long term mental health issues they are causing.) Setting sentencing guidelines that can include a good healthy sit in jail and require automatic loss of your ability to practice in the state in question should give the provider a chance to think about what he/she is doing, however)

2 wrongs do not make a right.

There is actually some interesting statistics on the surprisingly large percentage of surgeries that are medically unnecessary. I’ve heard former Pxxxxxx Parenthood employees say that they were trained that if the pregnancy test came back negative to tell the “patient” that it was unreliable and they needed an ultrasound to confirm. Then pick any blob they could find and tell the “patient” that she was pregnant and they could take care of it right then and there – it would be easy to just get it over with, no one would need to know she could just get on with her life.

Yes, much surgery is “medically unnecessary” and some drugs.

Are ED medications medically necessary? The answer to that would be how important is a healthy marriage with a procreative sex life? Yet, most insurers disagree with my answer to that question.

Are hair loss prevention meds medically necessary? Obviously not.

Much cosmetic surgery is for appearance only. Some is reconstructive. The line may blur. If a boy’s face is disfigured in an accident, is reconstructive surgery for appearance medically necessary? Most insurers say yes. What if a boy loses a testicle in an accident? Most insurers would not cover a prosthetic replacement.

Is a “tummy tuck” medically necessary? No.

In all of these cases, an argument could be made one way or the other as to necessity. But none of them are immoral.

At issue today is that patients are educating themselves on the internet, and being persuaded by direct advertising, and they are demanding particular drugs and procedures…

 

[JimG]

The same as it was befor 1973.

Yes. And before 1973, it was abortionists who were penalized by the law for performing abortions, not women.

When I read the stories of many women who have had abortions, I am struck by the fact that many of them felt they had no choice. They were pressured by boyfriends, their mothers, their boyfriends parents, counselors, and given no options. It would be dumb and counterproductive to criminalize women for having abortions. Make abortion illegal and penalize abortionists.

This is simply a strawman question. The correct answer is simply the one you have given: “the same as it was before 1973.”

Before 1973, there were no women in jail for having gotten abortions. But there were few abortionists because of the legal penalties.

Even now, no good physician wants to be an abortionist. But for the bad physicians, a great deal of money can be made because so few physicans are willing to destroy babies in the womb.

 

[cargau]

Yes. And before 1973, it was abortionists who were penalized by the law for performing abortions, not women.

When I read the stories of many women who have had abortions, I am struck by the fact that many of them felt they had no choice. They were pressured by boyfriends, their mothers, their boyfriends parents, counselors, and given no options. It would be dumb and counterproductive to criminalize women for having abortions. Make abortion illegal and penalize abortionists.

This is simply a strawman question. The correct answer is simply the one you have given: “the same as it was before 1973.”

Before 1973, there were no women in jail for having gotten abortions. But there were few abortionists because of the legal penalties.

Even now, no good physician wants to be an abortionist. But for the bad physicians, a great deal of money can be made because so few physicans are willing to destroy babies in the womb.

I understand your response to show thart you have much compassion for the mother who finds herself in a bind and being the subject of coercion. Certainly we must be sympathetic to the hardship this circumstance offers.

Still. it does not excuse the intentional destruction of another human being. One may be dealing with a difficult parent or an abusive co-worker, yet we don’t, as a society, condone murdering that person.

If we are to value and respct the dignity of every living person (even those still in the womb), we must take a stand in defense of life that punishes those who would seek to destroy it.

I don’t know what a measured punishment would be for mothers who choose abortion. But, certainly, in justice, it should not be permitted without any recognition of the wrongdoing.

And, finally why can’t we also have compassion for the victims who have no say in any decisions regarding their very existance.

 

[JimG]

I understand your response to show thart you have much compassion for the mother who finds herself in a bind and being the subject of coercion. Certainly we must be sympathetic to the hardship this circumstance offers.

Still. it does not excuse the intentional destruction of another human being. One may be dealing with a difficult parent or an abusive co-worker, yet we don’t, as a society, condone murdering that person.

If we are to value and respct the dignity of every living person (even those still in the womb), we must take a stand in defense of life that punishes those who would seek to destroy it.

I don’t know what a measured punishment would be for mothers who choose abortion. But, certainly, in justice, it should not be permitted without any recognition of the wrongdoing.

And, finally why can’t we also have compassion for the victims who have no say in any decisions regarding their very existance.

Did the law punish women who got abortions prior to 1973, when they were mostly illegal? NO. And if women had been subject to severe punishment for abortion, abortion would have been legalized much sooner, by the states, and without U.S. Supreme Court intervention.

If abortion is illegal, punish abortionists, not women.

Someone posted a link on CAF to a women’s abortion story on her blog, but I can’t find it now. She recounts her abortion. She was 17. When she found out she was pregnant, her mother gave her $300 and the name of the abortion clinic, and told her to go have the abortion, and don’t tell her dad or anyone else. She was alone. She parked and walked across a bridge to get downtown to the abortion clinic. No counselors, no one to give other advice. No one to say, you don’t have to do this. She had the abortion, walked back over the bridge, drove home. How much jail time would you give to such a girl?

There are thousands of stories like that. Ask any counselor for Rachel’s Vineyard or post-abortion help groups.

If the law is to punish women who have abortions, it had better equally penalize their moms, dads, boyfriends, grandmothers, friends, and everyone else who pushes her toward that abortion clinic, as accessories.

If anyone wants to keep abortion legal for sure, just propose extreme penalties for women.

 

[JimG]

I found the link. Here it is:

postabortionwalk.blogspot.com/2011/07/story-of-my-abortion.html?m=0

And this story is by no means unique.

 

[cargau]

Did the law punish women who got abortions prior to 1973, when they were mostly illegal? NO. And if women had been subject to severe punishment for abortion, abortion would have been legalized much sooner, by the states, and without U.S. Supreme Court intervention.

If abortion is illegal, punish abortionists, not women.

Someone posted a link on CAF to a women’s abortion story on her blog, but I can’t find it now. She recounts her abortion. She was 17. When she found out she was pregnant, her mother gave her $300 and the name of the abortion clinic, and told her to go have the abortion, and don’t tell her dad or anyone else. She was alone. She parked and walked across a bridge to get downtown to the abortion clinic. No counselors, no one to give other advice. No one to say, you don’t have to do this. She had the abortion, walked back over the bridge, drove home. How much jail time would you give to such a girl?

There are thousands of stories like that. Ask any counselor for Rachel’s Vineyard or post-abortion help groups.

If the law is to punish women who have abortions, it had better equally penalize their moms, dads, boyfriends, grandmothers, friends, and everyone else who pushes her toward that abortion clinic, as accessories.

If anyone wants to keep abortion legal for sure, just propose extreme penalties for women.

The standard prior to 1973 (or after, for that matter) is hardly the standard by which we should assess a just application of moral law.

I get the fact that women face hard times when they become pregnant at an inoportune time and I do not choose to make light of that hardship. I believe that we as Catholic Christians should do all we can to assist the mother the best we can.

But, deciding to destroy the child in the womb is no different to me than killing her two year old toddler (except the age). The mother may be filled with all sorts of anxiety trying to balance all of the tasks needed to support her family. Yet, as a society, we do not allow the woman to murder her child without legal repercussions.

As far as the penalty, I never said anything about jail time. I would be willing to let the legal system determine appropriate punishment. But, I do believe it would be a great injustice to the baby and all aborted children to simply wink and look the other way.

 

[livingwordunity]

I think the “punishment” should be that the mother be required to be psychologically evaluated and seek counseling. If it’s determined that she did the act without any emotional and psychological distress but that she just wanted to kill her baby for reasons of convenience then she should serve time for the murder. The abortionist should always receive some kind of jail sentence.

 

[JimG]

For forty years women have been told that abortion is okay. They’ve been told that it’s legal and it’s necessary and it’s their right. They’ve grown up being brainwashed by Planned Parenthood, the media, the government, the schools. Not only that, PP and all those outlets have told them for more than 40 years that sexual expression is their right, practically a duty, it’s good for you, and hey, here’s some condom’s, here’s free birth control pills. Your parents never have to know. And here’s a pamphlet that tells you different ways to do it and how to prevent pregnancy.

And when that mom gave her daughter $300, she didn’t say, “Here’s $300 to go kill your baby.” If she had she said that, (which is the truth), the girl would have balked, and not gone, even though she had nowhere else to go and would have been kicked out of her home. But nobody used those words; they told her, it’s not really a baby.

Every aspect of the culture promotes unmarried sex, promotes teen sex, and promotes abortion as birth control. The boyfriend uses her and dumps her; the parents say, “If you get pregnant, you’re out of the house.” The counselor says, come in on Tuesday, we’ll take care of it. Bring $300 cash.”

There are so many accessories to this crime that I don’t even know where to start. And the woman should be punished, but not her mom, not the boyfriend, not the abortion counselor, not her dad who didn’t want to hear about it, not all the people who pushed her in one direction only?

Yes, every abortion kills a child. But the culture has been denying that for forty years. Is it any wonder that a girl makes herself believe the lies?

I have no personal experience of this, and certainly some women are more culpable than others. But I’m pretty certain that if pro-life people began talking about what penalties to apply to women who obtain abortions, it will really work against the pro-life effort and maybe ensure that Roe will never be overturned.

Why should we apply more serious penalties now, after 40 years of pro-death brainwashing, than were applied before 1973?

 

[TheDoors]

Seems pretty simple to me. If a mother held her baby while a doctor deliberately and with prior knowledge on both their parts killed the child, how would they be punished?

 

[JimG]

Seems pretty simple to me. If a mother held her baby while a doctor deliberately and with prior knowledge on both their parts killed the child, how would they be punished?

And that’s exactly why the pro-abortion culture never presents abortion to anyone in that light. Back before Roe v Wade, there was a widely publicized case of a U.S. woman who went to another country for a legal abortion because she anticipated a deformed child. I was discussing this with a woman at work. “She should just wait till the child is born,” I said, “then if what she fears is true, she can kill it then.” I was simply trying to make the case that there was no difference, but she didn’t see it that way.

If you really believe that proposing grave punishments for women is the way to end abortion, I disagree. In fact, if the pro-life movement goes that route, I can guarantee that it will ensure the continued legalization of abortion.

I can only imagine a Rachels Vineyard retreat at which following the retreat the counselor says, ‘now of course, I’m going to have to turn you over to the authorities to be thrown in jail.’