If abortions were illegal, what would the punishment be for the mother who has one?

[TheDoors]

And that’s exactly why the pro-abortion culture never presents abortion to anyone in that light. Back before Roe v Wade, there was a widely publicized case of a U.S. woman who went to another country for a legal abortion because she anticipated a deformed child. I was discussing this with a woman at work. “She should just wait till the child is born,” I said, “then if what she fears is true, she can kill it then.” I was simply trying to make the case that there was no difference, but she didn’t see it that way.

If you really believe that proposing grave punishments for women is the way to end abortion, I disagree. In fact, if the pro-life movement goes that route, I can guarantee that it will ensure the continued legalization of abortion.

I can only imagine a Rachels Vineyard retreat at which following the retreat the counselor says, ‘now of course, I’m going to have to turn you over to the authorities to be thrown in jail.’

I believe the way to end abortion is to take the tax money given to murdering children and putting it to work in social reform. This, along with fighting the culture of death and dispair in our inner cities would work to stop the “fatherless generation” from creating another generation fathered by irresponsible, uncaring men. No punishment will end the plague of abortion. But this wasn’t the question asked. We were asked how the act of murdering shuold be punished. As I said, it should be punished as fits the crime.

 

[Chuck_Finley]

What should the charge be, and how should it be punished?

I ask this because liberal news commentators ask this question to pro-life politicians, who never answer the question, apparently because they think it will make them look bad. (I’ve seen Chris Matthews do this more than once–it’s his ace-in-the-hole when talking abortion.) I guess it’s easier to talk about punishing the doctors.

The problem is that, in my opinion, even understanding the total depravity of man, I just can’t believe a woman would do such a thing unless they were under severe emotional distress. Under the law, we always take the mental and emotional state of a defendant into account.

Planned parenthood loves to post videos and testimonials of women talking about how lucky they were to have an abortion and how it was the best thing that ever happened to them.

But my wife and I are heavily involed in the CPC movement and deal with these girls almost every day and I can tell you first hand that you will never hear a woman say “Yippee! I just killed my baby”. To the contrary, suicide rates and mental illness among women who have had abortions go through the roof because they know instinctively that, despite all of the propaganda, despite all of the coaxing, despite all of the self-delusion and justification, it is a baby.

I do not and cannot believe that any woman in her right mind and with full knowledge of the facts would do this and that’s what makes this question such a hard one.

There’s an old song I used to sing with my dad’s band that went, “She’s more to be pitied than scolded/she needs to be loved, not despised”. Working with these girls, you get to see the end result of abortion. The death of a baby is obvious, but the destruction of the mother’s life (and, more times than you realize,the father’s life) also occurs.

I do believe that there must be punishment in order to uphold the sanctity of the baby’s life, but I also believe it should be mixed with compassion, mercy, and understanding.

 

[LightBound]

How exactly would one know that the woman had the abortion? Even if the police busted into the procedure room, how are they to prove that she wasn’t having a D&C because she had miscarried? If abortion became illegal, the abortionists would likely go back to basic GYN practice, so how would they prove an abortion was done/being done to end a pregnancy versus a D&C to remove retained fetal or embryonic tissue from a miscarriage? Even a woman showing up in the ER after an abortion with severe bleeding could easily state she had miscarried…

Sounds like they’d have to have proof of the doctor offering to provide an abortion and charging the doctor with the crime instead of trying to prove the woman had one.

 

[katy]

Abortions are most always sought during extreme emotional distress, and often under duress. Abortionists are opportunists who make big money on someone else’s desperation. There is no more reason to punish women who have abortions now than there was prior to 1973. They most often have other problems brought on by the abortion anyway. The abortionist is the one who should have the legal penalties.

 

[da_nolo]

All involved should be held accountable just as it was a murder.

the mother would be fined, then placed within a low level security facility that caters to psychological counseling as well as other support groups or such. which also cater or should cater to those convicted of drug crimes, etc.

depending on the situation; the mother may be released after positive behaviors increase. This is because of over all emotional instability and influence during the crime.

 

[LightBound]

All involved should be held accountable just as it was a murder.

the mother would be fined, then placed within a low level security facility that caters to psychological counseling as well as other support groups or such. which also cater or should cater to those convicted of drug crimes, etc.

depending on the situation; the mother may be released after positive behaviors increase. This is because of over all emotional instability and influence during the crime.

Again, I ask; how exactly would one know that the woman had the abortion? Even if the police busted into the procedure room, how are they to prove that she wasn’t having a D&C because she had miscarried? If abortion became illegal, the abortionists would likely go back to basic GYN practice, so how would they prove an abortion was done/being done to end a pregnancy versus a D&C to remove retained fetal or embryonic tissue from a miscarriage? Even a woman showing up in the ER after an abortion with severe bleeding could easily state she had miscarried…

Sounds like they’d have to have proof of the doctor offering to provide an abortion and charging the doctor with the crime instead of trying to prove the woman had one.

 

[da_nolo]

Again, I ask; how exactly would one know that the woman had the abortion? Even if the police busted into the procedure room, how are they to prove that she wasn’t having a D&C because she had miscarried? If abortion became illegal, the abortionists would likely go back to basic GYN practice, so how would they prove an abortion was done/being done to end a pregnancy versus a D&C to remove retained fetal or embryonic tissue from a miscarriage? Even a woman showing up in the ER after an abortion with severe bleeding could easily state she had miscarried…

Sounds like they’d have to have proof of the doctor offering to provide an abortion and charging the doctor with the crime instead of trying to prove the woman had one.

Its the same as any other crime. my goodness use some imagination!

not sure what smiley might go there so i tried a few at the same time.

still the original post seemed opinion based. I gave an opinion.

in actuality the 70 something court ruling would be reversed and things would return ‘legally’ to what they were.

any added laws to develop a punishment would be limited and to whom ever writes it would discuss or explain the best means to go about it.

 

[JimG]

Its the same as any other crime. my goodness use some imagination!

not sure what smiley might go there so i tried a few at the same time.

still the original post seemed opinion based. I gave an opinion.

in actuality the 70 something court ruling would be reversed and things would return ‘legally’ to what they were.

any added laws to develop a punishment would be limited and to whom ever writes it would discuss or explain the best means to go about it.

You are right. If Roe v Wade were reversed, along with its companion case Doe v Bolton, state laws would simply revert to what they were prior to Roe.

R v W essentially overturned the abortion laws of all 50 states and replaced them with a regime of abortion on demand–that was the effect of Doe v Bolton following Roe v Wade.

Every state had some law in effect regulating abortion prior to 1973. Where penalties were imposed, they were imposed on abortionists, not women.

If R v W were overturned, the prior laws would again be effective, unless states decided to replace them with something different.

But merely overturning R v W would have no immediate effect on penalties imposed.

It seems to me that to raise the issue of penalties to be imposed on women is simply a pro-choice maneuver to scare the electorate into maintaining the pro-abortion regime. And if the pro-life contngent falls for this maneuver, it can only help the pro-choice side.

 

[cargau]

Abortions are most always sought during extreme emotional distress, and often under duress. Abortionists are opportunists who make big money on someone else’s desperation. There is no more reason to punish women who have abortions now than there was prior to 1973. They most often have other problems brought on by the abortion anyway. The abortionist is the one who should have the legal penalties.

Sorry, I don’t get the “extreme emotional distress” being a get out of jail free card. If someone just lost their job, went to the bar under “extreme emotional distress” and then ran over and killed someone on the way home, would they be excused due to the extreme emotional distress.

I am not making light of the difficulty of the circumstances a woman experiences when she discovers she is unexpectedly carrying a child. While her emotional state may be a point of consideration during the sentencing phase, it should not automatically remove any trace of guilt or wrongdoing on the part of the mother. I should say that men, husbands, boyfriends, fathers, etc and anyone else aiding in the commission of an abortion should be duly punished too.

 

[LightBound]

Its the same as any other crime. my goodness use some imagination!

not sure what smiley might go there so i tried a few at the same time.

still the original post seemed opinion based. I gave an opinion.

in actuality the 70 something court ruling would be reversed and things would return ‘legally’ to what they were.

any added laws to develop a punishment would be limited and to whom ever writes it would discuss or explain the best means to go about it.

What? Use some imagination? You mean like make sure the woman and the doctor both wear a tin-foil hat so the police detective cannot read their minds that the intent is an abortion and not a D & C to resolve a missed abortion (retained miscarriage)? There is virtually no way to prove an early abortion was not the D & C procedure I just mentioned above.

 

[da_nolo]

What? Use some imagination? You mean like make sure the woman and the doctor both wear a tin-foil hat so the police detective cannot read their minds that the intent is an abortion and not a D & C to resolve a missed abortion (retained miscarriage)? There is virtually no way to prove an early abortion was not the D & C procedure I just mentioned above.

well, if you used some imagination, then you may conclude that the manner in which a police force may investigate the criminal act of (procedural) abortion would be similar if not same as any other crime.

investigations would include:
undercover officers; cameras; voice recorders; confessions; witnesses; evidence (in whole); etc. that’s what i meant. that the manner could have easily been discovered by you, instead of insisting on asking everyone.

see I like people to use their imaginations for that is how we solve problems. if we use them ourselves than self discovery may help our own understanding. please don’t be upset, this is just how I think.

moving onward; if someone has a miscarriage - then THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL. if they just want to have an abortion and it is illegal. they do it in the shadows of a back alley or some abandoned hall w/ a mob doctor. figuring out whats what would be easy. especially after pressing investigation works:thumbsup:

furthermore when someone has a miscarriage - as you say they may have ‘pieces’ still remaining. while for a procedural abortion…the unborn child (in what ever form he/she may be in) IS STILL THERE. with everything else. perhaps there may be a manner in which that would not be, however I have not read on any such circumstance yet. I’ll keep an open mind that it may.

there are reasons towards why miscarriages happen and all are present w/in the mother or in other words evidential w/in the the mother. how to examine this? warrant! may be difficult to get at first from liberal judges, however from conservatives…easier. a few more good fights and it would be required for judges to follow a standard guideline for accepting warrants.

of coarse in order to get here/there first. we need to acknowledge that abortion should be illegal and therefore becomes illegal.

all of this is just like “what to do after we beat nazi germany” we’ll get to it when we get to it. otherwise we would not have (focused)won and we will not win. or so how I see it.

lets focus on the hypocritical genocide within this the U.S. and else where first. SO RALLY OURSELVES

 

[LightBound]

well, if you used some imagination, then you may conclude that the manner in which a police force may investigate the criminal act of (procedural) abortion would be similar if not same as any other crime.

investigations would include:
undercover officers; cameras; voice recorders; confessions; witnesses; evidence (in whole); etc. that’s what i meant. that the manner could have easily been discovered by you, instead of insisting on asking everyone.

see I like people to use their imaginations for that is how we solve problems. if we use them ourselves than self discovery may help our own understanding. please don’t be upset, this is just how I think.

moving onward; if someone has a miscarriage - then THEY GO TO THE HOSPITAL. if they just want to have an abortion and it is illegal. they do it in the shadows of a back alley or some abandoned hall w/ a mob doctor. figuring out whats what would be easy. especially after pressing investigation works:thumbsup:

furthermore when someone has a miscarriage - as you say they may have ‘pieces’ still remaining. while for a procedural abortion…the unborn child (in what ever form he/she may be in) IS STILL THERE. with everything else. perhaps there may be a manner in which that would not be, however I have not read on any such circumstance yet. I’ll keep an open mind that it may.

there are reasons towards why miscarriages happen and all are present w/in the mother or in other words evidential w/in the the mother. how to examine this? warrant! may be difficult to get at first from liberal judges, however from conservatives…easier. a few more good fights and it would be required for judges to follow a standard guideline for accepting warrants.

of coarse in order to get here/there first. we need to acknowledge that abortion should be illegal and therefore becomes illegal.

all of this is just like “what to do after we beat nazi germany” we’ll get to it when we get to it. otherwise we would not have (focused)won and we will not win. or so how I see it.

lets focus on the hypocritical genocide within this the U.S. and else where first. SO RALLY OURSELVES

Okay, I get what you’re saying now, but I will say that having had miscarriages, one doesn’t just show up at the hospital when they have a regular doctor. They call him/her, have ultrasounds done in the office, lab work to check hormone levels to see if they rise or drop, and most doc’s want you to keep a watch for bleeding to see if you pass all the fetal tissue. It’s usually only with heavy bleeding or levels that don’t drop that a D & C is necessitated and that is usually done at the outpatient surgery center that the doctor has privileges at (usually connected/in close proximity to the hospital). Not all abortions were done in “back alleys” with questionable doctors prior to Roe V Wade (actually the proabortion camp wants you to think this is the case for sympathy reasons), most abortions were done by licensed OB/GYNs who were sympathetic to the prochoice cause and would have their clients enter the office by the “back door”, hence the term “back alley abortions”, although they were done in the same manner as a D & C on a patient that had miscarried.

 

[LightBound]

Okay, I get what you’re saying now, but I will say that having had miscarriages, one doesn’t just show up at the hospital when they have a regular doctor. They call him/her, have ultrasounds done in the office, lab work to check hormone levels to see if they rise or drop, and most doc’s want you to keep a watch for bleeding to see if you pass all the fetal tissue. It’s usually only with heavy bleeding or levels that don’t drop that a D & C is necessitated and that is usually done at the outpatient surgery center that the doctor has privileges at (usually connected/in close proximity to the hospital). Not all abortions were done in “back alleys” with questionable doctors prior to Roe V Wade (actually the proabortion camp wants you to think this is the case for sympathy reasons), most abortions were done by licensed OB/GYNs who were sympathetic to the prochoice cause and would have their clients enter the office by the “back door”, hence the term “back alley abortions”, although they were done in the same manner as a D & C on a patient that had miscarried.

Also, I wanted to add that there is what is called a “missed abortion”, meaning that the baby has died in utero and for whatever reasons, the body has not begun to “deliver” the intact, but no long viable fetus on its own, so after an certain amount of time (usually less than a week), a D & C or other medical means is necessitated to allow the uterus to empty. Otherwise, the mom can become deathly ill from sepsis. Now, I could see (using my imagination) where an ultrasound, witnessed by the "authorities"must take place to ensure that it’s actually a procedure to remove a deceased fetus instead of an abortion to end a viable pregnancy, but then the “authorities” will need some kind of training in diagnostic imaging so they “know” what to look for as far as viability (even some techs and doctors miss things on ultrasound). The whole of this could easily become a patient privacy and legal nightmare when it comes to an exam…

 

[da_nolo]

Also, I wanted to add that there is what is called a “missed abortion”, meaning that the baby has died in utero and for whatever reasons, the body has not begun to “deliver” the intact, but no long viable fetus on its own, so after an certain amount of time (usually less than a week), a D & C or other medical means is necessitated to allow the uterus to empty. Otherwise, the mom can become deathly ill from sepsis. Now, I could see (using my imagination) where an ultrasound, witnessed by the "authorities"must take place to ensure that it’s actually a procedure to remove a deceased fetus instead of an abortion to end a viable pregnancy, but then the “authorities” will need some kind of training in diagnostic imaging so they “know” what to look for as far as viability (even some techs and doctors miss things on ultrasound). The whole of this could easily become a patient privacy and legal nightmare when it comes to an exam…

absolutely, which is why most seem to believe that the issue of ‘punishment’ will not be similar to an actual crime, but more lenient to provide services towards a recovery in an open - “I’m not mad at you, but I’m disappointed” - environment.

thank you for sharing your experience, I am aware that the such is difficult at times for families that go through w/ that.

I don’t know of all things that occur during miscarriages which sometimes cramp my style and imagination. so once more thank you.

IF an ‘authority’ is necessary - it would have to be (or at least best to be) an already trained individual. however, this may develop problems internally (for hospitals or where ever) creating something similar to internal investigations for cops.

so you are right that there are issues involved in this. just something to wrap our heads around. perhaps ‘punishment’ is not the right solution or implementation for writing abortion into law as illegal.

no worries, we’ll think of something. =)

have a nice day

 

[bearer]

IMHO, willful abortion is first degree murder.

 

[Durus]

10-20 years

IRL the question is simply a tactic for shutting down any discussion. Until people are more comfortable with putting their daughters behind bars, the pro-life movement should focus on punishing the doctor and not the woman.

Even for 13 year old children who were raped by their fathers?