If Adam and Eve had not sinned

[ncw98]

What would have happened to their descendants if the descendants had sinned and what would have been the consequences of their actions? Also, would the choice to sin by these descendants affect people born after them? Thanks!

 

[Ambien89]

If they remained in the Garden they would have no descendants. Eve was created as a helper and not a sexual partner. She was called Eve (something like ‘giver of life’) after the Fall.

 

[anjoh66]

If they remained in the Garden they would have no descendants. Eve was created as a helper and not a sexual partner. She was called Eve (something like ‘giver of life’) after the Fall.

That is not what Genesis 1 says.

27 God created man in the image of himself, in the image of God he created him, male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them, saying to them,** ‘Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it**. Be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven and all the living creatures that move on earth.’

This was before the fall, so they would certainly have had decendants in any way.

EDIT: The following passage from Genesis 2 confirms this.

23 And the man said: This one at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh! She is to be called Woman, because she was taken from Man.

24 This is why a man leaves his father and mother and becomes attached to his wife, and they become one flesh.

There is only one way for a man and a woman to become one flesh.

 

[Nelka]

If they remained in the Garden they would have no descendants. Eve was created as a helper and not a sexual partner. She was called Eve (something like ‘giver of life’) after the Fall.

Wrong.

They would still have had their children.

Genesis 3:20 The man named his wife ‘Eve’ because she was the mother of all those who live.

You got her name meaning wrong too.

I guess Cain would have still sinned and we would still be where we are, Satan wouldn’t give up so easily.

 

[livingwordunity]

They would still have had their children.

Genesis 3:20 The man named his wife ‘Eve’ because she was the mother of all those who live.

You got her name meaning wrong too.

I guess Cain would have still sinned and we would still be where we are, Satan wouldn’t give up so easily.

That’s a really good answer. It makes sense.

 

[Ambien89]

Doh! It’s good to look like a fool once in awhile. Which is all the time for me.

 

[Usagi]

As far as we know, only Adam (not even Eve) had the capacity to pass the condition we call Original Sin onto every single human. Had Cain been the first sinner, Seth’s descendants presumably wouldn’t have been affected, nor would Adam and Eve or any of their other children.

Usagi

 

[Nelka]

As far as we know, only Adam (not even Eve) had the capacity to pass the condition we call Original Sin onto every single human. Had Cain been the first sinner, Seth’s descendants presumably wouldn’t have been affected, nor would Adam and Eve or any of their other children.

Usagi

Just imagine half the population at that time with sin and the other half without, how long before Cain would take over the world?

 

[aragonjohn1]

What would have happened to their descendants if the descendants had sinned and what would have been the consequences of their actions? Also, would the choice to sin by these descendants affect people born after them? Thanks!

they would not know sin (,I.E., committing ) because Adam and Eve pass the test.

St. thomas Aquinas

Objection 1. It would seem that if man had not sinned, God would still have become incarnate. For the cause remaining, the effect also remains. But as Augustine says (De Trin. xiii, 17): “Many other things are to be considered in Incarnation of Christ besides absolution from sin”; and these were discussed above (Article 2). Therefore if man had not sinned, God would have become incarnate. …

On the contrary, Augustine says (De Verb. Apost. viii, 2), expounding what is set down in Luke 19:10, “For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost”; “Therefore, if man had not sinned, the Son of Man would not have come.” And on 1 Timothy 1:15, “Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners,” a gloss says, “There was no cause of Christ’s coming into the world, except to save sinners. Take away diseases, take away wounds, and there is no need of medicine.”

God bless

 

[MrSnaith]

they would not know sin (,I.E., committing ) because Adam and Eve pass the test.

God bless

I don’t see this as correct. The objection Thomas Aquinas was answering wasn’t “if Adam and Eve had not sinned,” it was “if man had not sinned,” and to that objection, Aquinas’ answer is correct.

But just because Adam and Eve had not sinned (hypothetically) doesn’t mean any of their descendants wouldn’t have have sinned either.

Each person is created with free will and intellect. Each person, then, would be responsible for their own choice, much as they are today. The difference would be that of Original Sin and concupiscence. Adam and Eve were the first humans, parents to all humanity. Thus, they condemned the house (humanity) by their sin. This position is unique to them, and the consequences of their descendants sinning would then be different.

If any man had ever sinned (even if Adam and Eve had not), then Christ might still have been incarnate in order to bring salvation to that particular group of humanity that had fallen, even if not all of humanity had. There is a question among Catholic theologians today regarding the significance of Christ to possible sentient extraterrestrial creatures who possibly may be in a pre-fall state. The answer is that, pre-fallen or not, Christ came for fallen humanity. If a sentient extraterrestrial race had also fallen, Christ’s salvific act would only apply to fallen humanity. We might expect Christ to incarnate for their race also, but the man Jesus Christ came for fallen humanity only.

In a similar vein, we might think about two groups of humanity, one fallen and one not, and Christ incarnating to save the fallen.

Another question one might consider, though, is that of Adam and Eve’s preternatural immortality. If Adam and Eve had not fallen when they did, would they have lived forever on Earth, or would they have at some point gone to Heaven? It’s an important question, because unlike the Angels, who had a singular moment to decide their eternity, humanity isn’t like that. If Adam and Eve had lived for millennia, had several, dozens, hundreds, or thousands of children, the possibility of their fall would still exist. They could conceivably have chosen to sin even after millennia of obedience. For that matter, we have no knowledge of how long they did live before they fell.

 

[SocialReign]

If they hadn’t then original sin would not have passed to their children, but they could have easily passed it to theirs if they had fallen. It is not difficult to estimate that eventually everyone would inherit a fallen state.

As for reproduction, the fathers were split on whether reproduction would have been entirely spiritual or sexual.

 

[aragonjohn1]

I don’t see this as correct. The objection Thomas Aquinas was answering wasn’t “if Adam and Eve had not sinned,” it was “if man had not sinned,” and to that objection, Aquinas’ answer is correct.

But just because Adam and Eve had not sinned (hypothetically) doesn’t mean any of their descendants wouldn’t have have sinned either.

Each person is created with free will and intellect. Each person, then, would be responsible for their own choice, much as they are today. The difference would be that of Original Sin and concupiscence. Adam and Eve were the first humans, parents to all humanity. Thus, they condemned the house (humanity) by their sin. This position is unique to them, and the consequences of their descendants sinning would then be different.

If any man had ever sinned (even if Adam and Eve had not), then Christ might still have been incarnate in order to bring salvation to that particular group of humanity that had fallen, even if not all of humanity had. There is a question among Catholic theologians today regarding the significance of Christ to possible sentient extraterrestrial creatures who possibly may be in a pre-fall state. The answer is that, pre-fallen or not, Christ came for fallen humanity. If a sentient extraterrestrial race had also fallen, Christ’s salvific act would only apply to fallen humanity. We might expect Christ to incarnate for their race also, but the man Jesus Christ came for fallen humanity only.

In a similar vein, we might think about two groups of humanity, one fallen and one not, and Christ incarnating to save the fallen.

Another question one might consider, though, is that of Adam and Eve’s preternatural immortality. If Adam and Eve had not fallen when they did, would they have lived forever on Earth, or would they have at some point gone to Heaven? It’s an important question, because unlike the Angels, who had a singular moment to decide their eternity, humanity isn’t like that. If Adam and Eve had lived for millennia, had several, dozens, hundreds, or thousands of children, the possibility of their fall would still exist. They could conceivably have chosen to sin even after millennia of obedience. For that matter, we have no knowledge of how long they did live before they fell.

interesting … thank You.

God bless

 

[St_Redemption]

Doh! It’s good to look like a fool once in awhile. Which is all the time for me.

haha

You actually have a strength here. The ability to laugh at oneself when wrong shows humility.

 

[St_Redemption]

Wrong.

They would still have had their children.

Genesis 3:20 The man named his wife ‘Eve’ because she was the mother of all those who live.

You got her name meaning wrong too.

I guess Cain would have still sinned and we would still be where we are, Satan wouldn’t give up so easily.

Cain may or may not have still killed his brother. We can’t really know how the actions of Adam and Eve snowballed to affect all of their descendants. Like (as they say) the flap of a butterflies wing can affect a wind current hallway across the world, so to then is the case of something like this.

 

[MrSnaith]

Just as a side note for anyone who thinks the test of the Garden was only for Adam and Eve, notice the command in Genesis 2:16-17 to not partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil comes before the creation of Eve in Genesis 2:21-22. This means that God gave this command to Adam only. Yet, we see in Genesis 3:1-3 that the command applied to Eve as well.

The application of the command to Eve, though it was given before Eve was created, may occur in one of five potential ways (as I see it). First, it may apply because Eve was created out of Adam, so they are of the same flesh. If this is true, then anyone born of Adam and Eve would also have come out of Adam, and the command would therefore also apply to them.

Second, it may apply due to marital union, the two becoming one flesh. If this is the case, the command might not apply to their children, as their children would not be one flesh with Adam.

Third, it may apply due to familial association. That is, Adam and Eve became one family in their union, and by this close association, then command applied. If this is the case, then the command would apply to their descendents by association.

Fourth, it may apply due to racial sameness. That is, Adam and Eve were of the same race, and the command was given to Adam as representative of the race. If this is the case, the command would apply to all their descendants as well.

Or Fifth, it may apply due to the very nature of what it is to be man, a creature into whom God breathed to make a living soul. That is, for every living soul there is a “tree of knowledge of good and evil” at the their heart. Thus, each of their descendents being a living soul, the command not to partake of it would also apply.

It seems to me that in order to argue that the command doesn’t also apply to their descendants, you’d have to make the case that it applied to Eve for no other reason than that she was the wife of Adam. Yet, from the text it seems that isn’t the case. Eve says to the serpent, “God hath commanded us…” But God didn’t command her; He commanded Adam. By saying “us,” it appears that either the first, fourth, or fifth case is true. That is, “us” because all came out of Adam, “us” because Adam represented all mankind by association, or “us” because the command was to human nature itself, represented by Adam.