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jimmy
Guest
Would Christ have become incarnate if Adam never sinned?
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St.Sebastian
Guest
Jesus came in fulfillment of scriptures because of the absence of grace created by Adam’s sin. Had Adam not sinned, he would have retained his sanctified grace and assuming that grace was not lost through his decendents, I would say the question would be moot.
In other words, we would not think to ask because it was never lost. This is what I gather from reading the likes of Frank Sheed, but I could be wrong.
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jimmy
Guest
Catholicism teaches that all grace is recieved through Christ. Even that which precedes Christ. For example the grace which Mary recieved in her immaculate conception was from Christ. Christ is her savior. Correct?Jesus came in fulfillment of scriptures because of the absence of grace created by Adam’s sin. Had Adam not sinned, he would have retained his sanctified grace and assuming that grace was not lost through his decendents, I would say the question would be moot.
In other words, we would not think to ask because it was never lost. This is what I gather from reading the likes of Frank Sheed, but I could be wrong.
So doesn’t that presuppose that God would have become man?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Why must Christ become incarnate to have all Grace to be recieved though Him?
This question can not truely be answered becuase Adam did sin.
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batteddy
Guest
Some think so, others don’t.
Aquinas didn’t think so, Scotus did.
Frankly, the current Church and its leaders lean towards the view that Christ would have become incarnate whether man sinned or not, and that this was the whole point of creation, and the occasion for the envy and pride of the devil.
However, some say that if Christ was going to come anyway, then original sin really didn’t bring about a “greater good” if it was going to happen anyway.
I think He would have come anyway.
But then again, he could have done the same for our redemption too and not had to incarnate. But he chose to actually give the grace of redemption by bridging the infinite gap between Creator and Creature by becoming incarnate and showing how much he loved us, and so I believe he would have made the same choice to give us grace even if we hadn’t sinned.
I mean…I believe even Adam, and the angels’, original grace came from the foreseen Incarnate God. The Creator Creature. And I believe if Adam hadn’t sinned, there still would have been some incarnate principal on which that grace would have been based.
Aquinas didn’t think so, Scotus did.
Frankly, the current Church and its leaders lean towards the view that Christ would have become incarnate whether man sinned or not, and that this was the whole point of creation, and the occasion for the envy and pride of the devil.
However, some say that if Christ was going to come anyway, then original sin really didn’t bring about a “greater good” if it was going to happen anyway.
I think He would have come anyway.
Maybe in an absolute sense he wouldn’t have had to. God could have just Willed grace on us.
But then again, he could have done the same for our redemption too and not had to incarnate. But he chose to actually give the grace of redemption by bridging the infinite gap between Creator and Creature by becoming incarnate and showing how much he loved us, and so I believe he would have made the same choice to give us grace even if we hadn’t sinned.
I mean…I believe even Adam, and the angels’, original grace came from the foreseen Incarnate God. The Creator Creature. And I believe if Adam hadn’t sinned, there still would have been some incarnate principal on which that grace would have been based.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
Romans 8:29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Seems to indicate an intial plan that Jesus be our brother.
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jimmy
Guest
Yes, pre-election does seem to imply that the Word would become man.
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kleary
Guest
There is also a reverse saying that is backed by some saint, right off I do not know his name.
Would Satan have tempted Adam if he did not know God would become man?
There exists a teaching that Lucifer and all the angels were shown the future event of God the Son becoming man, suffering and dying for the sins of mankind…and they were given a choice. Lucifer then rebelled and tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden.
Ken
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St.Sebastian
Guest
All grace is received through God. The question presupposed that Adam never sinned. My answer was based on that hypothetical.
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jimmy
Guest
Yes, I have heard a derivation of that quote. “If the Word did not become man, would Adam have sinned.”
I was talking with my proffessor about this and he mentioned this quote.
The Church’s liturgies seem to lean towards the position that Adam’s sin was necessary for the coming of God as man. In the Exsultet we hear:
“O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” (Roman Missal: Holy Saturday, Easter Proclamation)
St. Paul’s writings also seem to indicate that because of Adam’s sin, Christ came, and because of that, man could become partakers of the divine nature to a degree not possible even before the fall.
“O happy fault! O necessary sin of Adam, which gained for us so great a Redeemer!” (Roman Missal: Holy Saturday, Easter Proclamation)
St. Paul’s writings also seem to indicate that because of Adam’s sin, Christ came, and because of that, man could become partakers of the divine nature to a degree not possible even before the fall.
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