If all else fails how should we protect marriage?

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sweetchuck:
You are leaving out an oh-so-important part of that teaching of Christ. He said render to God what is God’s.

Matt. 12:16-17 They brought one [a coin] to him and he said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” They replied to him, “Caesar’s.” So Jesus said to them, "Repay to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and to God what belongs to God.’ They were utterly amazed at him.

But! Whose image is on Caesar? God’s! Caesar is made in the image and likeness of the living God, whether he likes it, knows it, denies it, proclaims it, or not. Caesar owes God. Jesus does not announce Caesar’s independence from God, Jesus announces Caesar’s DEBT to God. We, as citizens of the United States, have nothing. This land belongs to God, whether or not our coins say “In God We Trust” or not. We are free because of God. Horrendous evil will come upon us if we lead our homosexual brothers and sisters to go astray.

Like homosexual “marriage,” there’s no way to argue that abortion should be illegal without acknowledging God, either. If there is no God, abortion is fine. But there is a God, and he counts every drop of blood we spill. And we should hide our faces in fear if our country ever legalizes same-sex marriage, as should the nations that have done so.
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As for your argument about G-d being on the image of Caesar and your suggestion Jesus was calling on Caesar to be in debt to G-d, I don’t see that at all. Sorry.

Look, as Catholics we must always speak out against gay marriage by defending the Truth of G-d’s design for man.
We must vote for candidates who do not support gay marriages or civil unions…I get that.
But because we are the minority - for now - gay marriage or civil unions just may pass - for a time.
When that happens, we Catholics will not have to hide our heads in shame because we did what we were supposed to do. Horrendous evil is not going to fall on us Catholics who abide by G-d’s teachings despite what those around us are doing.
 
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YinYangMom:
As for your argument about G-d being on the image of Caesar and your suggestion Jesus was calling on Caesar to be in debt to G-d, I don’t see that at all. Sorry.
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Well, Scott Hahn explains this a lot better than I do, but yes, all people are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all called to worship our creator. We are all called to be saints. You don’t get a pass simply because you’re a public figure. Your duty to God and to your soul and others’ souls trumps any political duty a person has. All political authority is given from God. It’s a gift. What these politicians are doing is like if your parents bought you a house, paying your mortgage payments from month to month for you. Then they come to town to visit you for a week and you make them stay in a hotel because you don’t like the inconvenience. What is going on is a total abuse and disregard of the gift.
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YinYangMom:
But because we are the minority - for now - gay marriage or civil unions just may pass - for a time.
When that happens, we Catholics will not have to hide our heads in shame because we did what we were supposed to do.
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No, only those who feared to speak out against gay marriage should hide their heads in shame and ask forgiveness. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. There are enough people in America to oppose this that it should not pass. If it does here in this democracy, there can be no other explanation than our weakness and fear or that our government has fallen into tyranny.
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YinYangMom:
Horrendous evil is not going to fall on us Catholics who abide by G-d’s teachings despite what those around us are doing.
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Oh yes it is. Make no mistake. The abominations spelled out in Leviticus reveal that the land will vomit forth its inhabitants. There is no virtue in sitting back and when great sin and scandal comes, saying, “oh well. It’s not me. I am virtuous. My brother’s sins concern me not.” We are all in this together, and a persecution is building up around us. Souls will be murdered. Not people. Souls. Even if God spares us this Earthly chastizement, do you want your nation to fall and your countrymen and women to suffer? You cannot legalize sin. It is unjust. It is immoral. It scandalizes. And people will be eternally lost because of it. I have a number of homosexual friends. I do not want my nation to murder the souls of my friends. It has already allowed the murders of many people who would surely be my friends, but worse tragedy still is the murders of the souls of their parents and the doctors who brought about their deaths.
 
I know this is a bit o.t. but I didn’t want to start a whole new thread about it…

I’m at this other forum and the topic of homosexual “marriage” and the Church’s position has come up. All the replies are the usual liberal drivel… I couldn’t stand to let them attack the Church (and our Papa) like that so I posted under “bsbfan_vancouver” and although my reply is full of holes it was the best I could do. Now they’ve replied back and I don’t know how to address their arguments… Do you think some of you could hop on over and provide some support? Please? :eek:
 
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sweetchuck:
Well, Scott Hahn explains this a lot better than I do, but yes, all people are made in the image and likeness of God. We are all called to worship our creator. We are all called to be saints. You don’t get a pass simply because you’re a public figure. Your duty to God and to your soul and others’ souls trumps any political duty a person has. All political authority is given from God. It’s a gift. What these politicians are doing is like if your parents bought you a house, paying your mortgage payments from month to month for you. Then they come to town to visit you for a week and you make them stay in a hotel because you don’t like the inconvenience. What is going on is a total abuse and disregard of the gift.

But what if the political leaders or those in the political majority do not hold to our call to be saints. I get that all men are called to God, but many men just don’t know it yet, or they flat out refuse to respond to that call. We can’t force our ideology on them, and so long as they are the political majority all we can do is continue to vote NO and protest so that we are the voice of reason here.

There are enough people in America to oppose this that it should not pass.

I hope this is true.

There is no virtue in sitting back and when great sin and scandal comes, saying, “oh well. It’s not me. I am virtuous. My brother’s sins concern me not.”

You agreed earlier this would be for those Catholics who sat back and did nothing or actually vote for this law. Those of us who speak against it should still not have to worry about Leviticus applying to us.
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YinYangMom:
But what if the political leaders or those in the political majority do not hold to our call to be saints. I get that all men are called to God, but many men just don’t know it yet, or they flat out refuse to respond to that call. We can’t force our ideology on them, and so long as they are the political majority all we can do is continue to vote NO and protest so that we are the voice of reason here.
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I gotta be honest. I am sick of this ridiculous notion that we are forcing anything on anyone. That is just plain dishonest. Since the creation of Adam, no one has ever “forced” ideology on anyone. No matter how many chains you put on a person or how many stripes you put on their backs, you cannot take away their free will. And just as you cannot force immorality on someone (just ask St. Maria Goretti), so can you also not force morality on someone (just ask all the crack dealers). Regardless of the law, people can refuse to respond to or respond to the call to holiness.

BUT you can create an environment in which your unbelieving “neighbor” can meet God. And if he does turn from his self-destructive behavior, the greater the reward for those who corrected him. But if you can create an environment in which your unbelieving “neighbor” can continue his path of self-destruction, the greater the punishment for those who watched him destroy himself. All people are called to holiness. The eternal destiny of our neighbors is at stake. The laws some people want to pass in this country will set many people on a road to perdition.

Matt. 18:6-7 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!

Don’t forget the lesson of Eli (not the same person as Elijah or Elisha)…

1Sam. 3:11-14 The LORD said to Samuel: “I am about to do something in Israel that will cause the ears of everyone who hears it to ring. On that day I will carry out in full against Eli everything I threatened against his family. I announce to him that I am condemning his family once and for all, because of this crime: though he knew his sons were blaspheming God, he did not reprove them. Therefore, I swear to the family of Eli that no sacrifice or offering will ever expiate its crime.”
 
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YinYangMom:
You agreed earlier this would be for those Catholics who sat back and did nothing or actually vote for this law. Those of us who speak against it should still not have to worry about Leviticus applying to us.
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I never said that good Catholics who did what they could would not be tested or would not undergo trials. God has various ways of purifying us. Do you think that when the Assyrians sacked Samaria because of its sins, there weren’t good people who died as well? Or when the Babylonians captured and exiled those in Jerusalem, there weren’t good people among them? Only the early Christians understood Jesus’ prophecy well enough to flee Jerusalem before 70 a.d. so that they were not killed during the city’s destruction. A Christian knows he or she lives in exile, that no place on earth where the head rests on the pillow is “home.” Our home is heavenly Jerusalem. Are we prepared to flee this land, not making Lot’s wife’s mistake, when the time has come to shake the dust off our feet?

Bad things happen when immoral laws are put on the books. And they usually happen to holy people. They don’t “force” any ideology on someone, but they sometimes can force someone to reveal their beliefs. And if those beliefs are criminalized, what’s a God-fearing Christian to do? Learn from Maccabees.

1Mac.11-15,41-50,52,56-63
In those days there appeared in Israel men who were breakers of the law, and they seduced many people, saying: “Let us go and make an alliance with the Gentiles all around us; since we separated from them, many evils have come upon us.” The proposal was agreeable; some from among the people promptly went to the king, and he authorized them to introduce the way of living of the Gentiles. Thereupon they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem according to the Gentile custom. They covered over the mark of their circumcision and abandoned the holy covenant; they allied themselves with the Gentiles and sold themselves to wrongdoing.

Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, each abandoning his particular customs. All the Gentiles conformed to the command of the king, and many Israelites were in favor of his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. The king sent messengers with letters to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, ordering them to follow customs foreign to their land; to prohibit holocausts, sacrifices, and libations in the sanctuary, to profane the sabbaths and feast days, to desecrate the sanctuary and the sacred ministers, to build pagan altars and temples and shrines, to sacrifice swine and unclean animals, to leave their sons uncircumcised, and to let themselves be defiled with every kind of impurity and abomination, so that they might forget the law and change all their observances. Whoever refused to act according to the command of the king should be put to death. Many of the people, those who abandoned the law, joined them and committed evil in the land.

Any scrolls of the law which they found they tore up and burnt. Whoever was found with a scroll of the covenant, and whoever observed the law, was condemned to death by royal decree. So they used their power against Israel, against those who were caught, each month, in the cities. On the twenty-fifth day of each month they sacrificed on the altar erected over the altar of holocausts. Women who had had their children circumcised were put to death, in keeping with the decree, with the babies hung from their necks; their families also and those who had circumcised them were killed. But many in Israel were determined and resolved in their hearts not to eat anything unclean; they preferred to die rather than to be defiled with unclean food or to profane the holy covenant; and they did die. Terrible affliction was upon Israel."

…Notice how this all began. They invited the gentile customs into their own land. They probably thought they were being pretty tolerant.
 
****Please, pray. Pray for each other. Pray for those who don’t know the Truth. Pray for our families. Pray for our Church and our Clergy. Pray for all of our religious to be strong and true to Christ’s teachings. **Pray for our Blessed Mother to watch over us and intercede for us. ***** ***
Don’t be afraid to speak up. So many don’t know the Truth.**** As Christians, we are facing the onslaught of some of the worst persecutions of our times. One man (outside of work) had communicated his Christian views and was fired by a major insurance company. We need to pray more than ever and be united in standing up for our faith.****
******I am afraid. ******For my family, mostly – my little girls and the society they are growing up in. I am so small and insignificant. And yet, when I am shielded with the Blood of Christ, when I trust and have total faith– God makes me strong and invincible. That faith – keeps me going. And so I pray that God’s love – His Infinite and Merciful Love - shield all of you so you too can be His Warriors.
Pray. Fast. Go to confession. Adore our most precious Jesus. Love Him and be comforted by Him. And may the gifts of the Holy Spirit fill you so that all who greet you – see Christ.
Through Christ – all is possible – even in these “impossible” times. Believe. Have Faith. Be a Prayer Warrior for Christ.
 
Donna P said:
****Please, pray. Pray for each other. Pray for those who don’t know the Truth. Pray for our families. Pray for our Church and our Clergy. Pray for all of our religious to be strong and true to Christ’s teachings. **Pray for our Blessed Mother to watch over us and intercede for us. ******
Don’t be afraid to speak up. So many don’t know the Truth.**** As Christians, we are facing the onslaught of some of the worst persecutions of our times. One man (outside of work) had communicated his Christian views and was fired by a major insurance company. We need to pray more than ever and be united in standing up for our faith.****
******I am afraid. ******For my family, mostly – my little girls and the society they are growing up in. I am so small and insignificant. And yet, when I am shielded with the Blood of Christ, when I trust and have total faith– God makes me strong and invincible. That faith – keeps me going. And so I pray that God’s love – His Infinite and Merciful Love - shield all of you so you too can be His Warriors.
Pray. Fast. Go to confession. Adore our most precious Jesus. Love Him and be comforted by Him. And may the gifts of the Holy Spirit fill you so that all who greet you – see Christ.
Through Christ – all is possible – even in these “impossible” times. Believe. Have Faith. Be a Prayer Warrior for Christ.
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:amen: Nicely put, Donna.
 
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kev7:
If all the efforts of the church fail to prevent the onslaught of homosexual marriage, what strategies does the church have to protect our sacred sacrament?
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  1. Realize that the sacraments of the Church are PART of the Church, and what did Christ promise Peter and the others about the Church in his “Tu es Petrus” proclamation? Nothing OTHERS do and CALL marriage is going to do anything to the sacament of matrimony. As with the rest of the Church of which this sacrament is a part, is promised “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
  2. Do all we can to make OUR OWN marriages right and make them work. We must realize that NOTHING two other people do, whether they are heterosexual OR homosexual, can damage our own marriage. It takes the two of us to MAKE our marriage. It takes the two of us to BREAK our marriage - REGARDLESS of what women or men that are not in our marriage do!
  3. Remember just who it was that gave us the sacrament of matrimony and the Church. Did he make it so flimsy that other people can runi marriage? Give me a break. How much faith do we have in the originator of the Church and sacraments? How presumptuous must we be to believe that mere men (or women) acting as if they were married or claiming they were married could do away with the sacrament of matrimony? God hasn’t given them that power! Why should we? They’ll only have that power if we cede it to them.
So - be of good cheer. Our sacrament and institution of marriage is as safe as the Church is. Does that mean we don’t proclaim it for what it is? No. But do we have to wring our hands and moan about what IT is going to do to marriage? Not by a long shot! If we do that, we’re only demonstrating how shallow our faith is in the strength of the Creator of the Church. IT won’t do a thing to marriage! WE, who are married, who are the people - men and women - who DO get married are the ONLY people that can “ruin” marriage!
 
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sweetchuck:
I gotta be honest. I am sick of this ridiculous notion that we are forcing anything on anyone. That is just plain dishonest. Since the creation of Adam, no one has ever “forced” ideology on anyone. No matter how many chains you put on a person or how many stripes you put on their backs, you cannot take away their free will. And just as you cannot force immorality on someone (just ask St. Maria Goretti), so can you also not force morality on someone (just ask all the crack dealers). Regardless of the law, people can refuse to respond to or respond to the call to holiness.

BUT you can create an environment in which your unbelieving “neighbor” can meet God. And if he does turn from his self-destructive behavior, the greater the reward for those who corrected him. But if you can create an environment in which your unbelieving “neighbor” can continue his path of self-destruction, the greater the punishment for those who watched him destroy himself. All people are called to holiness. The eternal destiny of our neighbors is at stake. The laws some people want to pass in this country will set many people on a road to perdition.
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Precisely why I’m against legislating our Catholic beliefs on non-Catholics, and why I’m in favor of inviting non-Catholics to follow our lead.

Voting against political proponents of gay civil union - even if we should lose - **is not **creating an environment where my unbelieving neighbor can continue his path of self-destruction.

You speak of the laws ‘some people’ want to pass…if the majority rules on this matter then it isn’t ‘some people’ - it’s the majority, and that’s the way our Constitution was designed. What it really does is show what a sorry state the people in our nation is in. Or, it can show that our nation really is in good hands (should any proposed legislation fail to pass).

The elections are simply markers in time - they help us to see where we are in relation to where we need to be. Yes, our nation is being tested and many Christians are rising to the challenge…the best we can do is continue to evangelize and spread the Truth to affect change. When people are convinced of the Truth they will vote accordingly and our Constitution will have proven to be well-designed. We can win this challenge within our current Constitutional guidelines - we do not have to mess with it, nor do we have to manipulate the justice system.

What gets me about stacking the Supreme Court in order to reverse RvW is that it’s not a permanent solution. What gets stacked one way this time, can be stacked the other way the next and with that, the rulings overturned back and forth over time.

The key is get the masses to not choose abortion as an option for the right reasons - even though the law of the land says it’s ok. It’s a matter of supply and demand. Reduce the demand, and the doctors will go on to other specialties. RvW reversal will reduce the supply without changing the heart of those demanding the option, and we Catholics will not have served Christ well this way. It’s one way, but it’s really not the way we are called to do our job. I say rise to the real challenge of getting all people to understand the value of life from conception to death.

We create the environment through our own lives, how we live them out, how we speak the Truth whenever and wherever we can.
 
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YinYangMom:
Precisely why … wherever we can.
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:nope:

Eloquently put, or so it seems. But you are only half right - the other half almost as wrong as is metaphysically possible. National law must ALSO be moral law. Laws that are immoral, such as abortion, are not laws at all. And if the people are oppressed under them, those people have a right and a duty to see to it that those immoral laws are changed. You are right in that there must be an individual commitment to righteousness. Unfortunately, when people are unsure, they err on the side of what is legal rather than what is moral. Changing hearts will save souls and lives. Reversing the immoral law will save souls and more lives.

Let’s use a hypothetical, and bear with me, as I am about to use a painful analogy to drive home such a crucial point on such a major issue that it demands nothing less than every effort.

Let’s accept the following as a moral truth (and I don’t think there will be much debate):
Rape is morally wrong.
But in our hypothetical scenario, 70% of the population believes that everyone has a right to rape someone else.
Rape is then legalized as a free expression of speech and individual rights when done in a fashion so as to protect the health of the assailant and the victim.
Is it better to accept the fact that that law is on the books and try to go person to person to convince every individual in his or her own heart that rape is morally abhorrent?
…or…
Is it better to have such a ridiculous and morally abhorrent decision stricken from the nation’s law for the protection of the afflicted, regardless of another person’s personal preference for the right to rape someone?

Now I ask you, considering the analogy, which is better: To have the immoral laws of abortion and gay “marriage” on the books and try to change people’s hearts against them or to strike the law from the book/prevent it from ever getting there in the first place and then try to change people’s hearts as to why morality demands no less of a nation?

I am sorry for the analogy, rape is deplorable, but rape is less evil than abortion. Abortion IS murder. I fail to understand why you don’t see any urgency in reversing Roe v. Wade. It is of utmost urgency. And if it is reversed but reinstated years down the road, that’s still MILLIONS of lives spared. Those are children who would have been murdered by the conspiracy between the government, their doctors and their mothers.

Now I ask you, why would you be cool with putting homosexual “marriage” on the books as legal when we know that it is morally reprehensible?

You have heard of the people jailed for simply praying in front of abortion clinics? The day is coming when a priest will be cuffed and arrested at Mass for speaking out against “the right” to homosexual marriage. Will you put your personal freedom on the line to protest at his trial? Will you come to the Masses of the underground church in America? When our laws have deteriorated to the point of persecution, will you offer the use of your home for the celebration of the Eucharist?

Jesus Christ is Lord and God of all, and all nations have their power through Him. If our laws deny God, God will deny us.

Matt. 25:1-13 “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones, when taking their lamps, brought no oil with them, but the wise brought flasks of oil with their lamps. Since the bridegroom was long delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep. At midnight, there was a cry, ‘Behold, the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’ Then all those virgins got up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ But the wise ones replied, ‘No, for there may not be enough for us and you. Go instead to the merchants and buy some for yourselves.’ While they went off to buy it, the bridegroom came and those who were ready went into the wedding feast with him. Then the door was locked. Afterwards the other virgins came and said, ‘Lord, Lord, open the door for us!’ But he said in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, I do not know you.’ Therefore, stay awake, for you know neither the day nor the hour.”
 
This isn’t the first time the Church has gone through bad times. Think of her very beginnings! The Church consisted of a few hundred (maybe thousands). That many could have easily been swept by the Roman army or something. Yet even when all hope seemed lost God always pulled through in the end.

There will be no way the Church will change just to make a minority or majority happy. She stands for the Truth! Like Ratzinger (Pope Ben XVI) said, “Truth is not determined by a majority vote,” and knowing that you can be confident she’ll be firm and stable.

In times of despire and hopelessness great saints rise. Be one of those people to make a stand for Christ, and become a saint for Him! Be not afraid!
 
I saw this article on zenit.org and thought it appropriate to share here…

**Same-Sex Marriage Seen as “Defeat for Humanity”

****L’Osservatore Romano Article Comments on Spanish Law

**VATICAN CITY, JULY 4, 2005 (Zenit.org).- Spain’s new law on homosexual “marriage” is a “defeat for humanity,” says the Vatican’s semiofficial newspaper.

L’Osservatore Romano, in an article signed by Francesco Valiente and published Sunday, said that the Catholic Church’s opposition to this initiative involves, not a “war of religion,” since the family is not something imposed by the Church, but rather the heritage of great cultures.

“The triumphalist tones with which some ‘progressive’ politicians and intellectuals have commented on the law that legalizes homosexual unions, equating them to heterosexual marriage, elicits incredulity and bitterness,” the article states.

“Not only believers, but any person with common sense, free of prejudiced blinkers, cannot but recognize in this act a degrading defeat for humanity,” it adds. "Whether the ‘enlightened’ politicians (and their entourage of obliging ‘maître à penser’) like it or not, the family, based on marriage between a man and a woman is not an invention of Catholics.

“The Christian dignity of marriage, instead of diminishing a profoundly human value, consolidates and reinforces it. For this reason, any attempt to change God’s plan on the family is also an attempt to disfigure the most authentic face of humanity.”

Inscribed in nature

For the author Valiente, “those who today cry victory against ‘the traditional model of the family imposed by the Church,’ forget that a war of religion is not being fought here. The family is the common heritage of the world’s great cultures.”

“It belongs to the whole of humanity because it is inscribed in nature from its beginning. And it has survived, throughout the centuries, the screening of philosophical, scientific, anthropological and social systems.”

“It is singular that a state which proclaims itself ‘secular’ and ‘liberal’ attempts to impose its own ideological system on such a complex reality,” notes the author.

Valiente adds: “To everyone, and not just to believers, corresponds the task to stop this degeneration of humanity by guarding the original 'vocabulary” of the family, of marriage, of love which for millennia has written the history of generations."
 
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