If all grace comes through Mary

[CrossofChrist]

Why?

If Elijah is body and soul in heaven why doesn’t he give us grace too?

This is not dogma as I understand , Mary giving grace, simply pious practice.

The idea of Mary being Mediatrix isn’t dogma, but AFAIK it is Church doctrine since numerous Encyclicals, the Catechism, and Lumen Gentium all support the title.

*This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. *

vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010501_concilio-vaticano-ii_en.html

So my reasoning is this:

God gives himself entirely to each one of us, “for by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man” (Gaudium et Spes 22). But our sin limits how much we can accept the grace of God. Mary is different from all other creatures since God decided to work his act of salvation through her.

But if God is pure act and therefore pure love, then all of Christ’s life is one act of pure love, by virtue of his divinity, that is completed on the Cross. If Christ gave us salvation through the Virgin Mary at one point, it continues to be that way insofar as Mary accepts God’s grace and doesn’t limit the extent to which salvation can come through her, because it is all “one act” from God’s perspective. We know Mary did accept Christ wholeheartedly throughout her entire life, from her Conception through her Assumption. Because God gives himself to Mary in a new way in the Incarnation (he gives all salvation through her when Christ becomes incarnate), his giving of himself to Mary throughout the rest of her life will continue to be in this new way (giving salvation through her).

The reason why all salvation comes through her is because she didn’t limit herself by sinning and accepted God’s grace in its entirety by abandoning herself to God in the Assumption.

Of course God didn’t have to do this. But he wanted to out of love for us and for Mary.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The idea of Mary being Mediatrix isn’t dogma, but AFAIK it is Church doctrine since numerous Encyclicals, the Catechism, and Lumen Gentium all support the title.

*This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. *

vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010501_concilio-vaticano-ii_en.html

So my reasoning is this:

God gives himself entirely to each one of us, “for by His incarnation the Son of God has united Himself in some fashion with every man” (Gaudium et Spes 22). But our sin limits how much we can accept the grace of God. Mary is different from all other creatures since God decided to work his act of salvation through her.

But if God is pure act and therefore pure love, then all of Christ’s life is one act of pure love, by virtue of his divinity, that is completed on the Cross. If Christ gave us salvation through the Virgin Mary at one point, it continues to be that way insofar as Mary accepts God’s grace and doesn’t limit the extent to which salvation can come through her, because it is all “one act” from God’s perspective. We know Mary did accept Christ wholeheartedly throughout her entire life, from her Conception through her Assumption. Because God gives himself to Mary in a new way in the Incarnation (he gives all salvation through her when Christ becomes incarnate), his giving of himself to Mary throughout the rest of her life will continue to be in this new way (giving salvation through her).

The reason why all salvation comes through her is because she didn’t limit herself by sinning and accepted God’s grace in its entirety by abandoning herself to God in the Assumption.

Of course God didn’t have to do this. But he wanted to out of love for us and for Mary.

Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut. A hearty

 

[CrossofChrist]

All grace come from God and the love is in infinity. It is not quantifiable.

hope19

True, but humans are finite creatures and not infinite, hence the love which is apportioned to us in accordance with our nature can’t be infinite (even if the Love we “see” in the beatific vision is infinite–wow, this is mind-boggling!). Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross merited infinite grace because his humanity is united to God so that his very person is divine. And so his perspective is totally different from ours, since we are human persons. Yes, we can participate in the beatific vision someday, but only Christ’s humanity enters into “the Holy of Holies” as his own person! So that’s what I mean when I say “in quality” Christ’s love is different. Yet his humanity is still by nature finite, which means that in a sense the love he has is limited “in quantity”.

At least that’s how I see it.

 

[hope19]

True, but humans are finite creatures and not infinite, hence the love which is apportioned to us in accordance with our nature can’t be infinite (even if the Love we “see” in the beatific vision is infinite–wow, this is mind-boggling!). Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross merited infinite grace because his humanity is united to God so that his very person is divine. And so his perspective is totally different from ours, since we are human persons. Yes, we can participate in the beatific vision someday, but only Christ’s humanity enters into “the Holy of Holies” as his own person! So that’s what I mean when I say “in quality” Christ’s love is different. Yet his humanity is still by nature finite, which means that in a sense the love he has is limited “in quantity”.

At least that’s how I see it.

I see your point of view. Thanks.

hope19

 

[AussieTrish]

Only Jesus had the divine power to redeem us.

Like all of us, Mary would have nothing and be nothing but for the grace of God.
Where God uses Mary or any of us, as an instrument of grace, it is only through God’s mercy and grace. If Mary is pronounced “full of grace” it is only through God’s great mercy.

 

[Googler]

“By no means can we content ourselves with simply any kind of love for the Heart of Jesus, because we aspire for the most perfect love, i.e. to the point of loving with the Heart of the Immaculate, and only a love of this kind.”
~Saint Maximillian Kolbe

 

[EIF5A]

Does Mary grant grace to Protestants who have no devotion to her but believe in her Son and try to live with virtue?

Some saints have stated to the effect of ‘One cannot be saved without being devoted to the Blessed Mother’ (very generally paraphrased).

 

[ready]

Does Mary grant grace to Protestants who have no devotion to her but believe in her Son and try to live with virtue?

Some saints have stated to the effect of ‘One cannot be saved without being devoted to the Blessed Mother’ (very generally paraphrased).

All graces pass through the hands of Mary, so this would mean that the graces that Protestants receive come form her hands too. Protestants would be capable of receiving many more graces if they were better disposed. God bless you.

 

[Googler]

Only Jesus had the divine power to redeem us.

Like all of us, Mary would have nothing and be nothing but for the grace of God.
Where God uses Mary or any of us, as an instrument of grace, it is only through God’s mercy and grace. If Mary is pronounced “full of grace” it is only through God’s great mercy.

There are five principal doctrines in the Catholic Church about Mary our devotions to her are and should be based.
Mary Ever Virgin
Mary, the Mother of God
Mediatrix of Grace
Mary freely cooperated in giving the Redeemer to the world. With Mary’s maternity admitted and accepted, her cooperation in the Incarnation is to be accepted likewise - no Mary, no Christ.
The Incarnation and subsequent Redemption of man by Christ’s atoning death on the Cross depended on Mary’s consent.
Mary is Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession now in Heaven. Mary cooperates in the application of grace to mankind. First, as the Mother of God, and secondly, by joining her will with His in voluntarily accepting her Son’s death, thereby mediating by her intercession and channeling the graces Christ merited on Calvary.
The Immaculate Conception
The Bodily Assumption of Mary into Heaven

 

[Googler]

Does Mary grant grace to Protestants who have no devotion to her but believe in her Son and try to live with virtue?

Some saints have stated to the effect of ‘One cannot be saved without being devoted to the Blessed Mother’ (very generally paraphrased).

We don’t need to invoke our Lady, she is already interceding for us.
But the more we do, the more grace’s we receive from God through her every time we ask in confidence.
The impeccable reliability of the Immaculata to help and deliver graces to those who confidently ask, is a miraculous gift to those who use it wisely.

+
Immaculata, Mother of Jesus, Mother of God, Mary our mother, grant that those who are consecrating themselves today to your Immaculate Heart may follow your directives all the days of their life. May they always do what Jesus tells them to do. And help us dear Mother, help us to remain faithful to your Son so that by obeying Him and loving you we might possess Him and you in that everlasting consecration to Jesus through you for which we were made. Amen.

 

[Sirach2]

This presently falls in the category of pious devotion and is not obligatory for belief by Catholics at this time. I trust the readers will note the date was 1996.

Here is the actual declaration published in
L’Osservatore Romano25 June 1997, page 10:

**A NEW MARIAN DOGMA? **Comment on Marian Academy’s Declaration
　
At the most recent Mariological Congress held at Czestochowa, 18-24 August 1996, a commission was established in response to a request, by the Holy See, which had asked to know the opinion of the scholars present at the Congress on the possibility and the opportuneness of defining a new dogma of faith regarding Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate. In recent years, the Holy Father and various dicasteries of the Holy See have received petitions requesting such a definition.
The response of the commission, deliberately brief, was unanimous and precise: it is not opportune to abandon the path marked out by the Second Vatican Council and proceed to the definition of a new dogma,

In the path of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council
From whatever perspective it is considered, the movement that is petitioning for a dogmatic definition of the Marian titles of Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate is not in line with the direction of the great Mariological text of the Second Vatican Council, chapter eight of Lumen gentium, which, in the judgement of Paul VI, constitutes the most extensive synthesis “of the Catholic doctrine on the place that the Blessed Virgin Mary occupies in the mystery of Christ and the Church” ever traced by an Ecumenical Council (Closing Allocution of the Third Session of the Council, 21 November 1964, n. 7).

One should not undervalue the importance of the Mariological teaching of Vatican II, set forth in the exceptional context of a dogmatic constitution,
the “fruit of the action of the Spirit”
and of the “considered reflection of the Bishops” - those to whom the Lord has entrusted the task of preserving and elucidating the deposit of faith.
The current movement for a definition is not manifestly in line with the direction of Vatican 11, both with respect to the request for a new Mariological dogma, and the content that is proposed for such a “hypothetical” dogmatic definition.

Prescinding from any other consideration, in the case of the mediation of Mary, with respect to many of its aspects one finds oneself before a quaestio disputata, far from that substantial theological unanimity which, in relation to every doctrinal question, is the necessary prelude for proceeding to a dogmatic definition.
[emphasis mine]

.

 

[CrossofChrist]

This presently falls in the category of pious devotion and is not obligatory for belief by Catholics at this time. I trust the readers will note the date was 1996.

Not the belief in Mary as Mediatrix. That is Catholic doctrine that numerous Encyclicals and an Ecumenical Council have mentioned.

20. Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent, since in writing such Letters the Popes do not exercise the supreme power of their Teaching Authority. For these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority, of which it is true to say: “He who heareth you, heareth me”;[3] and generally what is expounded and inculcated in Encyclical Letters already for other reasons appertains to Catholic doctrine. But if the Supreme Pontiffs in their official documents purposely pass judgment on a matter up to that time under dispute, it is obvious that that matter, according to the mind and will of the Pontiffs, cannot be any longer considered a question open to discussion among theologians. (Humani Generis 20)

The response of the commission, deliberately brief, was unanimous and precise: it is not opportune to abandon the path marked out by the Second Vatican Council and proceed to the definition of a new dogma,

I agree that it isn’t a good idea to define this as dogma for multiple reasons.

In the path of the teaching of the Second Vatican Council
From whatever perspective it is considered, the movement that is petitioning for a dogmatic definition of the Marian titles of Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate is not in line with the direction of the great Mariological text of the Second Vatican Council, chapter eight of Lumen gentium, which, in the judgement of Paul VI, constitutes the most extensive synthesis “of the Catholic doctrine on the place that the Blessed Virgin Mary occupies in the mystery of Christ and the Church” ever traced by an Ecumenical Council (Closing Allocution of the Third Session of the Council, 21 November 1964, n. 7).

One should not undervalue the importance of the Mariological teaching of Vatican II, set forth in the exceptional context of a dogmatic constitution,
the “fruit of the action of the Spirit”
and of the “considered reflection of the Bishops” - those to whom the Lord has entrusted the task of preserving and elucidating the deposit of faith.
The current movement for a definition is not manifestly in line with the direction of Vatican 11, both with respect to the request for a new Mariological dogma, and the content that is proposed for such a “hypothetical” dogmatic definition.

Prescinding from any other consideration, in the case of the mediation of Mary, with respect to many of its aspects one finds oneself before a quaestio disputata, far from that substantial theological unanimity which, in relation to every doctrinal question, is the necessary prelude for proceeding to a dogmatic definition.
[emphasis mine]

.

100% agree.

What I’m trying to do is to take what we know about the Incarnation and see how it applies to us becoming more like Christ, in order to develop a deeper understanding of how God works in our own lives. AFAIK we have to believe that Mary is Mediatrix, Auxiliatrix, etc., but how we understand that is left open to each individual.

I’m just trying to deepen my understanding of what Mary means to us and if anyone else has some good insight, that’s it. There’s no need for another Marian dogma. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

 

[Starfrog]

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear: “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. Not Mary. Can’t be any clearer than that.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Mary gives or bestows grace. It says the “grace of God,” 1 Cor 15:10; it says “he gives us more grace” James 4:6 it says “Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ.” 2 John 1:3 and many more scriptures. But nowhere does it say that Mary dispenses grace. Nowhere.

And Mary is not God, Jesus is. Why look to Mary for grace? She is finite. She is a human being. She is not omnipresent, not omnipotent, not omniscient. Jesus is. Why not go to Jesus, who is available all the time, to everyone?

 

[Googler]

The Apostle Paul makes it very clear: “For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5. Jesus is the mediator between God and man. Not Mary. Can’t be any clearer than that.

Nowhere does the Bible say that Mary gives or bestows grace. It says the “grace of God,” 1 Cor 15:10; it says “he gives us more grace” James 4:6 it says “Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ.” 2 John 1:3 and many more scriptures. But nowhere does it say that Mary dispenses grace. Nowhere.

And Mary is not God, Jesus is. Why look to Mary for grace? She is finite. She is a human being. She is not omnipresent, not omnipotent, not omniscient. Jesus is. Why not go to Jesus, who is available all the time, to everyone?

The Gospel of John clearly states that there was far more taught and done by Our Lord than what is written in the Gospel. So Catholics also abide by holy tradition, the handing down of traditions that those with a sola scriptura mindset dismiss. And if you dismiss the traditions of the early Church Fathers, then how is it that you accept a Gospel that was handed down to you from the same source?
Our Lord Himself was obedient to her for 30 years and that part is indeed scriptural. If God the Father entrusted His Son to her, why should we be afraid to turn to her? It was Protestantism that demoted this powerful devotion because it is so life changing.

God does not send anything to man that dose not pass through the hands of His Mother. The wise will send everything to God through those same hands.

When we say through Mary, to Jesus, we mean that:
Through Mary’s voluntary consent we have received Jesus.
Through Mary’s example we are better able to imitate Jesus.
Through Mary’s intercession we obtain graces from Jesus.
To better understand what these phrases mean, is to more deeply appreciate what it means to be a Catholic.

The Church in her teaching and the saints in their writings sometimes appear excessive in the power they attribute to Mary’s intercession with her Son. But her intercessory power is not exaggerated as Cardinal Newman so clearly explains.
“This is why the Blessed Virgin is called powerful, because she has, more than anyone else, more than all angels and saints, this great, prevailing gift of prayer. No one has access to the Almighty as His Mother has; none has merit such as hers. Her son will deny her nothing that she asks; and herein lies her power. While she defends the Church, neither height nor depth, neither men nor evil spirits, neither great monarchs, nor craft of man, nor popular violence can avail to harm us; for human life is short, but Mary reigns above, a Queen forever.”

The source of her powerful intercession with Christ, therefore, is her sanctity, her nearness to Christ as His Mother, and her appointment by Christ to be our Mother, too. The holier a person is the more effective is that person’s prayer, and Mary is the Queen of all saints. The closer a person is to Christ, the more certainly He hears that person’s prayer. And Mary could not have been closer to the One she carried for nine months, gave Him birth, and reared Him as man, for the Redemption of the world.

 

[Googler]

“They will experience her motherly kindness and affection for her children. They will love her tenderly and will appreciate how full of compassion she is and how much they stand in need of her help. In all circumstances they will have recourse to her as their advocate and mediatrix with Jesus Christ. They will see clearly that she is the safest, easiest, shortest and most perfect way of approaching Jesus and will surrender themselves to her, body and soul, without reserve in order to belong entirely to Jesus.”
~Saint Louis Marie Grignion de Montfort (1673 to 1716), True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, 55.

“The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin His Spouse. This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose.”
~Saint Maximilian Maria Kolbe (1894 – 1941), Will to Love, 25.
Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, and sought thy intercession was left unaided. Amen. Alleluia.

 

[Sirach2]

Googler:

This is why she is the Mediatrix of all grace by the Holy Spirit.

May I gently remind you of the teaching of our Holy Church in Lumen Gentium regarding Mary:

1. But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God.

Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the doctors and liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church’s magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the Church.

Let the faithful remember moreover that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and we are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.

The saints you quoted are not the Magisterium, nor do they carry the weight of authority to teach in the Church’s name. They lived prior to the formulation of the Church’s present teaching in Vatican II, but if had they been privileged to read this “dogmatic constitution” during their lifetime, I can assure you that they would have obediently submitted, in accord with their holiness, just as we must submit.

Until such time as the Church defines as dogma the title you bestowed here in the name of a “saint,” we must align our minds with that of the Church and not go beyond it, whenever we share Mariology with others. Otherwise, you have done a good job.

 

[Jon_S_1]

May I gently remind you of the teaching of our Holy Church in Lumen Gentium regarding Mary:

The saints you quoted are not the Magisterium, nor do they carry the weight of authority to teach in the Church’s name. They lived prior to the formulation of the Church’s present teaching in Vatican II, but if had they been privileged to read this “dogmatic constitution” during their lifetime, I can assure you that they would have obediently submitted, in accord with their holiness, just as we must submit.

Until such time as the Church defines as dogma the title you bestowed here in the name of a “saint,” we must align our minds with that of the Church and not go beyond it, whenever we share Mariology with others. Otherwise, you have done a good job.

May I also add that it is threads like this that push our Protestant friends ten steps further away from coming back to the church. It is these extra beliefs about Mary that are not official church teaching that they have a problem with.

Stick to the dogma of the church especially when answering a Protestant.

 

[Starfrog]

So let’s be clear:

Not a single comment in reply to my comment deals with the scripture. None of you have any scriptural answer, only tradition!

Not one of you dealt with the main verse in Timothy. I’ll quote it again:

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, " 1 Tim. 2:5

I quote you what THE APOSTLE PAUL said absolutely clearly.
ONE MEDIATOR = JESUS

There is absolutely no New Testament scripture that teaches what you are claiming about Mary. Mary was a wonderful woman, blessed indeed to be the mother of Jesus and filled with grace. But she was a human being, therefore, sinful and needed to be saved just like everyone else (or else 1 John 1:9 is not true) (and yes Jesus was the only exception - he was sinless, and the scripture clearly teaches that.). She obeyed God and was used by him. She’s a prime example of humility and obedience and faith.

But in the New Testament she is not called the co-redeemer or referred to in any way as connected to redemption other than being the physical mother of Jesus.

Never is there any hint of teaching that anyone should pray to her.
The rosary was spoken by an ANGEL not a human being.
There is no reference to any human being being told to recite it.

Mary is NOT OMNISCIENT or OMNIPRESENT or OM(name removed by moderator)OTENT. JESUS IS. Why go to Mary rather than directly to Jesus? It’s certainly not scriptural and it’s not even logical.

And nothing of the sort is taught or hinted at by the original apostles. And not the APOSTLES CREED or the NICENE CREED. Only certain individuals later on.

Those are facts, not opinion; it’s clear and irrefutable.

Now back to grace.
The New Testament clearly teaches that grace comes from God. Eph 2:8-9: we are saved by grace through faith… unto works. That’s the order. Grace is the gift of Jesus, his death on the cross. It comes through (dia) faith - that’s the means by which we receive it - we believe - and it leads to good works. Real faith produces works. We are not saved by works, but if we have no works then our faith is suspect. Which is what James was saying. Again, nowhere does is there ANY verse that says that grace comes from or through Mary.

Anything else is CONTRARY to the New Testament. Yes church tradition is absolutely important, but some of the figures in church history had some crazy ideas. Any teaching must be rejected if it contradicts the scripture.

The comment that “The Gospel of John clearly states that there was far more taught and done by Our Lord than what is written in the Gospel.” is laughable as a defense. On that basis, the Mormons and Bahai and everyone else can say and claim anything. We are not talking about some esoteric subject like numerology in Revelation or Daniel.

I have quoted clear verses in context that contradict what you are claiming.
Please deal with the scriptural arguments I’ve stated.
Especially 1 Tim. 2:5

Thanks!

 

[Sirach2]

Starfrog,

You are a guest in our forum, and as such, must be respectful of our faith. Many, like yourself, have come here in a similar attempt to use scripture to denigrate our Marian beliefs, and have failed. I don’t expect you to understand, and since you are not asking for help to do so, it is clear that you are proselytizing. with your “shouting” format. Now I respectfully ask that you cease this line of assertions if you want to remain a member in good standing here.

 

[porthos11]

Every grace comes through Mary’s hands. She not only prays for us, she also mediates for us. Thus her title: Mary Mediatrix of All Graces.

This is the kind of formulation I do not like (and one of the reasons I object to the titles being defined as dogma), that all grace comes through “Mary’s hands” or that “Mary is the neck through which grace flows.”

That Mary is Mediatrix is true, but only on the following bases:

1. That by her “fiat”, she bore Christ, who is grace himself; and
2. God has ordained the distribution of grace to be contingent on Mary’s intercession.

On the second point, this is compatible with the Church’s doctrine on the efficacy of prayer and divine Providence.

I object to the “hands” and “neck” analogies because my frail mind can’t wrap those images around that de-fide teachings of the Church that the primary methods of imparting sanctifying grace, that is, the Sacraments, are actions of Christ himself, and therefore it is he who directly acts to give that grace, not through Mary’s “hands” or “neck”. Rather, it was that God’s Providence answers Mary’s prayers for the recipients of that grace.