If all grace comes through Mary

[porthos11]

So let’s be clear:

Not a single comment in reply to my comment deals with the scripture. None of you have any scriptural answer, only tradition!

Not one of you dealt with the main verse in Timothy. I’ll quote it again:

"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, " 1 Tim. 2:5

I quote you what THE APOSTLE PAUL said absolutely clearly.
ONE MEDIATOR = JESUS

There is absolutely no New Testament scripture that teaches what you are claiming about Mary. Mary was a wonderful woman, blessed indeed to be the mother of Jesus and filled with grace. But she was a human being, therefore, sinful and needed to be saved just like everyone else (or else 1 John 1:9 is not true) (and yes Jesus was the only exception - he was sinless, and the scripture clearly teaches that.). She obeyed God and was used by him. She’s a prime example of humility and obedience and faith.

But in the New Testament she is not called the co-redeemer or referred to in any way as connected to redemption other than being the physical mother of Jesus.

Never is there any hint of teaching that anyone should pray to her.
The rosary was spoken by an ANGEL not a human being.
There is no reference to any human being being told to recite it.

Mary is NOT OMNISCIENT or OMNIPRESENT or OM(name removed by moderator)OTENT. JESUS IS. Why go to Mary rather than directly to Jesus? It’s certainly not scriptural and it’s not even logical.

And nothing of the sort is taught or hinted at by the original apostles. And not the APOSTLES CREED or the NICENE CREED. Only certain individuals later on.

Those are facts, not opinion; it’s clear and irrefutable.

Now back to grace.
The New Testament clearly teaches that grace comes from God. Eph 2:8-9: we are saved by grace through faith… unto works. That’s the order. Grace is the gift of Jesus, his death on the cross. It comes through (dia) faith - that’s the means by which we receive it - we believe - and it leads to good works. Real faith produces works. We are not saved by works, but if we have no works then our faith is suspect. Which is what James was saying. Again, nowhere does is there ANY verse that says that grace comes from or through Mary.

Anything else is CONTRARY to the New Testament. Yes church tradition is absolutely important, but some of the figures in church history had some crazy ideas. Any teaching must be rejected if it contradicts the scripture.

The comment that “The Gospel of John clearly states that there was far more taught and done by Our Lord than what is written in the Gospel.” is laughable as a defense. On that basis, the Mormons and Bahai and everyone else can say and claim anything. We are not talking about some esoteric subject like numerology in Revelation or Daniel.

I have quoted clear verses in context that contradict what you are claiming.
Please deal with the scriptural arguments I’ve stated.
Especially 1 Tim. 2:5

Thanks!

This thread is for Catholics dealing with a particularly complex Catholic topic. It’s WAAAYY past simple “why do Catholics pray to Mary”-type questions.

You will not save any souls here. Leave this thread and start a new one with your questions in the Apologetics section, where such attacks belong. And I would suggest you try being more respectful there.

 

[Starfrog]

So you’re upset that I used all caps for emphasis?
Ok, I apologize for that.

But what about the substance? Please respond to the scriptural truths taught by the Apostle Paul that I cited
Or show me any verses of the New Testament that support the assertions about Mary being the mediator and the means of grace, etc.
I expected some kind of substantial response from scripture and have received none.
I’m actually pretty shocked by the lack of scriptural basis for such practices and beliefs in Roman Catholicism.
This is not disrespect.
This is an observation.
I’m just surprised.

 

[Jon_S_1]

So you’re upset that I used all caps for emphasis?
Ok, I apologize for that.

But what about the substance? Please respond to the scriptural truths taught by the Apostle Paul that I cited
Or show me any verses of the New Testament that support the assertions about Mary being the mediator and the means of grace, etc.
I expected some kind of substantial response from scripture and have received none.
I’m actually pretty shocked by the lack of scriptural basis for such practices and beliefs in Roman Catholicism.
This is not disrespect.
This is an observation.
I’m just surprised.

Ok…I will bite. Please show me any verse in the Bible that says all truth about God is found in the Bible. Or better yet find me a verse that says what the Bible is (contents wise). We best know the inspired contents before anything else.

We hold all Jesus taught as true, rather it was written down or not.

 

[Googler]

Correct. It is not a dogma.
Some beliefs about Marian devotions have been asserted by the saints and theologians, but have not been dogmatically approved by the Church.

I apologize for any confusion.
I should not have used the word ‘mediatrix’ because these days, there is no precise interpretation of it.

My intention was not to promote a new Marian dogma, just trying to help us understand what Mary means to us.

But since it was brought up, I have learned more about it. Thank you

There is much more to be understood about this for good Catholics, former Catholics and non-Catholics.

A Study of Marian Themes in Magisterial Documents

Under the theme Mary and the Church: Mediation and Intercession

I believe that just because a Catholic devotion may not be dogmatic should not exclude it from discussion.

 

[Jon_S_1]

I believe that just because a Catholic devotion may not be dogmatic should not exclude it from discussion.

That is a good point. I have no problem with most pious devotions regarding Mary, as long as it does not divorce Christ from his lordship in some way.

It is important when discussing some of these things to make it clear, " ready" earlier in the thread made it all or nothing. Describing things as absolute and dogmatic when they are not.

I like learning about different pious practices, and I dislike having them imposed dogmatically on me when they should not be. More importantly than my feelings, I dislike the great rift such things cause to Protestant unity. As we saw on this thread, Protestants see that and are reinforced in their error.

 

[Starfrog]

Well I see that my two comments have been removed. Not sure why except that people got offended that I challenged their position and they can’t defend their position based on the Bible, but only rely on what the church tells them. I pointed out what the Bible says, what people like Paul and John said, who in their New Testament writings spoke under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Their writings are the Word of God.

I challenged the point that Mary is the mediator between God and man by quoting the Apostle Paul:
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, " 1 Tim. 2:5
I quoted other New Testament scriptures such as Eph 2:8-9, etc. that show that grace comes from God, and there is absolutely no mention of Mary in any teaching about grace, except that she received grace to be the mother of Jesus.

All I got in response was comments from later figures in church history and sections of church pronouncements. You value church tradition. Great. That’s helpful.

But how about valuing what the Apostle Paul and the rest of the New Testament says?

I did not see a single comment or reference from the Bible.

The claim that Mary is the mediator clearly contradicts Paul.

Can anyone step back a moment and just try to defend what you are claiming from the Bible? The Bible that is authorized by the Catholic church?

Thank you.

 

[porthos11]

Well I see that my two comments have been removed. Not sure why except that people got offended that I challenged their position and they can’t defend their position based on the Bible, but only rely on what the church tells them. I pointed out what the Bible says, what people like Paul and John said, who in their New Testament writings spoke under the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Their writings are the Word of God.

I challenged the point that Mary is the mediator between God and man by quoting the Apostle Paul:
"For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, " 1 Tim. 2:5
I quoted other New Testament scriptures such as Eph 2:8-9, etc. that show that grace comes from God, and there is absolutely no mention of Mary in any teaching about grace, except that she received grace to be the mother of Jesus.

All I got in response was comments from later figures in church history and sections of church pronouncements. You value church tradition. Great. That’s helpful.

But how about valuing what the Apostle Paul and the rest of the New Testament says?

I did not see a single comment or reference from the Bible.

The claim that Mary is the mediator clearly contradicts Paul.

Can anyone step back a moment and just try to defend what you are claiming from the Bible? The Bible that is authorized by the Catholic church?

Thank you.

And this will get removed too.

This is a Catholic thread discussing a particularly complex Catholic topic and is way beyond “why do Catholics worship Mary” type questions. Leave this thread and take your challenges to the Apologetics section where it belongs.

 

[Starfrog]

Hi Porthos11
Ok, Thanks. This was my first time to post on this forum, so I wasn’t familiar with it.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Hi Porthos11
Ok, Thanks. This was my first time to post on this forum, so I wasn’t familiar with it.

I responded to your post that was removed. My post was removed to as it derails the thread. Please start a new thread and you will receive all the answers you need and then some. To start I will just say you are barking up the wrong tree. Mary is not a mediator between God and men. Catholic teaching is that she and the saints pray alongside us just as people on earth do.

 

[CrossofChrist]

If all grace comes through Mary, (if she is the Mediatrix of all graces by virtue of her coronation as Queen of heaven and earth) does that mean that she has all the love it is possible to have in a finite human heart? IOW, does she have the same amount of love as Jesus “in quantity” (for lack of a better phrase) even if not “in quality” (because she isn’t united to God as Jesus is in the hypostatic union)?

Food for thought.

After thinking through this a bit more, I’m disagreeing with my reasoning b/c I neglected sufficient attention to Mary’s growth in grace. Mary accepted the role to have all grace come through her by saying “yes” to God at the Annunciation, and God continued to grant her spiritual role of doing this via intercession insofar as she didn’t say “no”. But that in no way means she needed to “possess” these graces herself. ISTM that when starting this thread I was thinking of her role as our spiritual Mother in the order of grace as starting with her Assumption and Coronation, rather than with the Incarnation. :blush:

Of course God very well could have given Mary all these graces for herself in her Assumption/Coronation as a gift, since “she is the “exemplary realization” (typus)510 of the Church.” (CCC 967).

 

[justice99]

some times when am at the chapel praying the rosary in front of the blessed sacrament, when my eyes are open, I don’t know where to look: at the blessed sacrament or at a picture of Mary below the altar. I decided to look at the blessed sacrament. I can’t explain why but I feel that’s the right thing to do. how does this apply in this thread? I don’t know, just decided to post it anyway

 

[Googler]

some times when am at the chapel praying the rosary in front of the blessed sacrament, when my eyes are open, I don’t know where to look: at the blessed sacrament or at a picture of Mary below the altar. I decided to look at the blessed sacrament. I can’t explain why but I feel that’s the right thing to do. how does this apply in this thread? I don’t know, just decided to post it anyway

Congratulations, you have an informed conscience.
It ‘is’ the right thing to do.
God dwells in our midst, in the Blessed Sacrament of the altar. Alleluia.
“There is no better preparation for Holy Communion other than offering it to the Immaculate… She will prepare our heart in the best way possible, and we will be sure to give Jesus the greatest of joys and to show him the greatest of loves.
After Holy Communion let us pray to the Immaculate once more, so that she herself may welcome Jesus into our soul and make him happy as no one ever before has been able to do.”
~Saint Maximilian Kolbe

 

[autumnmoon]

I have recently in April 2014 joined the Catholic Church. I have read, and studied much literature during this journey. Forgive me if I seem a babe in this subject but upon the impression I received as God lead me into the arms of the Catholic Church, It was Mary that lead me there. I had went to Protestant Churches (as you call it) all my life and I had an overwhelming desire for the something that was missing but did not know what it was. I almost stopped going to Church. When one evening when I was leaving my job, the smell of roses surrounded me.( This same experience happened during the winter with snow on the ground and no roses were in bloom.) I asked at my job “Who got roses today?” They said no one. I got in my car very tired from the day, and the smell of roses came to me again. I was going home and ended up at the Catholic Church. Something lead me to go to the door to find out the time they had Church. To cut this short, I didn’t know anything about the connection of Mary and roses till I was lead once again to go to the Rosery and shared what brought me there. That’s when I was told Mary was guiding me there. Time passes.,
June 16 2014 That morning said the Rosery, prayed to Mary to pray for me and fellowship with God. My granddaughter and I when we hear an ambulance we stop and pray. I prayed for an ambulance also that morning. June 17 2014 the next day that evening I got hit in the back of my car 55 miles an hour. Totaled both of our cars but not a scratch on anyone, just jerked around some. This is not the only thing I’ve experienced in my life time of divine intervention. I am not special or a chosen Saint, but I am loved by God, Jesus, Mary and heavenly host, because I choose to embrace them for the realest they are to me. This is called a testimonial, a witness to Gods love and mercy through the heavenly host. Catholic’s say to me that is your Protestant learning. I tell them, no it is my Christian faith and God is not a Denomination. It’s free to all. “who so ever believeth in Me shall have eternal life”. It’s not Gods will that no man perish, yet they are. How can we as Catholic’s prevent that on our part?

 

[Googler]

It’s not Gods will that no man perish, yet they are. How can we as Catholic’s prevent that on our part?

By having a corrupt nature we have an inclination towards sin. Relying on our own efforts, it is doubtful we can make others saints. Grace is needed from on high.
Entrustment or consecration to Mary allows us to be instruments in the conversion of souls.

“It can be said that by divine diposition nothing can be communicated to us from the infinite treasure of grace except through Mary. Thus just as no one can draw near to the Father save by means of the Son, so too ordinarily no one can draw near to Christ except by means of his mother.”
~Pope Leo XIII

Mary, take over!

 

[ready]

I just want to say that although the Universal Ordinary Magisterium is comprised of the Pope and Bishops in union with him, all that the saints and theologians teach in common universally (e.g. in books, etc.) that are accepted by the Pope and that are not condemned by him are a part of the teaching of the Church’s Universal Ordinary Magisterium. The Church’s UOM has taught repeatedly throughout history that all grace comes through Mary – Popes have taught this, Bishops have taught this, saints have taught this and so have theologians: and nobody has ever been condemned by a Pope for teaching this – this teaching has been universally accepted. This teaching about all graces coming through Mary is universal and accepted by the Magisterium, * it is infallible*, as are all universal teachings on faith and morals by the Magisterium. God bless you.

 

[Sirach2]

… all that the saints and theologians teach in common universally (e.g. in books, etc.) that are accepted by the Pope and that are not condemned by him are a part of the teaching of the Church’s Universal Ordinary Magisterium.

This is utterly false and misleading to the faithful. Now that the Councilors during Vatican II defined Mariology, coupled with the Commission rulings I posted here, there is no way a saint who lived prior to these declarations can have their opinions validated as authentic teaching of the U.O.M.
Sirach 2:

The response of the commission, deliberately brief, was unanimous and precise: it is not opportune to abandon the path marked out by the Second Vatican Council and proceed to the definition of a** new dogma.**
The current movement for a definition is not manifestly in line with the direction of Vatican 11, both with respect to the request for a new Mariological dogma, and the content that is proposed for such a “hypothetical” dogmatic definition.

If one were to use your false rationale, the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception would therefore be invalid, since both Saints Thomas Aquinas and Catherine of Siena did not uphold belief in it. However, when the Magisterium had spoken, these saints would most readily obey and concur with their teaching. It does not hold any weight that their opinions form the Universal Ordinary Magisterium, simply because no pope condemned their opinions. That is a veritable straw man. Church teaching ALWAYS has the final say, and it is not necessary for the Holy See to issue a formal denial or condemnation of anyone’s previously held opinions.

I truly do not understand why you persist in opposing the Church in this matter, preferring the opinion of your saints. They do not hold any weight now that the documentation has been issued in formal Council deliberations and the Commission rulings quoted above.

 

[ready]

This is utterly false and misleading to the faithful. Now that the Councilors during Vatican II defined Mariology, coupled with the Commission rulings I posted here, there is no way a saint who lived prior to these declarations can have their opinions validated as authentic teaching of the U.O.M.

If one were to use your false rationale, the proclamation of the Immaculate Conception would therefore be invalid, since both Saints Thomas Aquinas and Catherine of Siena did not uphold belief in it. However, when the Magisterium had spoken, these saints would most readily obey and concur with their teaching. It does not hold any weight that their opinions form the Universal Ordinary Magisterium, simply because no pope condemned their opinions. That is a veritable straw man. Church teaching ALWAYS has the final say, and it is not necessary for the Holy See to issue a formal denial or condemnation of anyone’s previously held opinions.

I truly do not understand why you persist in opposing the Church in this matter, preferring the opinion of your saints. They do not hold any weight now that the documentation has been issued in formal Council deliberations and the Commission rulings quoted above.

What you say and read into my statement about the UOM is false. What I say is true. Your example of the Immaculate Conception and St. Thomas Aquinas/St. Catherine of Sienna does not even apply – what these two saints may have believed does not take away from the infallibility of the UOM on its teaching about Mary and all graces coming through her. All grace does come through Mary and nothing V2 can invalidate this infallible teaching – once something is infallible it is infallible. I will not respond to any more of your posts, seeing we have reached an impasse. Praised be Jesus and Mary!

 

[Sirach2]

What you say and read into my statement about the UOM is false. What I say is true. Your example of the Immaculate Conception and St. Thomas Aquinas/St. Catherine of Sienna does not even apply – what these two saints may have believed does not take away from the infallibility of the UOM on its teaching about Mary and all graces coming through her. All grace does come through Mary and nothing V2 can invalidate this infallible teaching – once something is infallible it is infallible. I will not respond to any more of your posts, seeing we have reached an impasse. Praised be Jesus and Mary!

This however, is NOT infallible teaching, and is NOT part of the U.O.M. It has NEVER been made into dogma, and the Church is presently avoiding declaring it as a solemn dogma at this time, in keeping with V-II. You are totally off the mark, Ready!

Please keep your word and avoid this topic. Your private opinion is harmful to others.

 

[CrossofChrist]

This is utterly false and misleading to the faithful. Now that the Councilors during Vatican II defined Mariology, coupled with the Commission rulings I posted here, there is no way a saint who lived prior to these declarations can have their opinions validated as authentic teaching of the U.O.M.

Your linked post was against the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix becoming dogma. That doesn’t mean it isn’t doctrine; it just isn’t Church teaching infallibly defined.

 

[Sirach2]

Your linked post was against the doctrine of Mary as Mediatrix becoming dogma. That doesn’t mean it isn’t doctrine; it just isn’t Church teaching infallibly defined.

No problem. I understand and agree that it is not infallibly defined. My primary objection is that the previous poster persists in taking the theology of Mary as Mediatrix, which is true and confirmed within Vatican II, to a level beyond that which the Church has stated or defined. The title she wishes to declare and teach is Mary, Mediatrix of ALL graces.