If all of Reality only exists within your mind

  • Thread starter Thread starter James_S_Saint
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
J

James_S_Saint

Guest
…then within what does your mind exist?

I was on another forum trying to discuss various topics and a diehard solipsist kept insisting that nothing I said was of value because ALL truly intelligent people throughout history have known that nothing is real anyway and only exists within your mind. He informed me that I was too naive and reducing the quality of the philosophy forum by not accepting that obvious truth.

So it occurred to me to ask that question. He hasn’t returned a reply.

Any diehard solipsists out over here? :o
 
…then within what does your mind exist?

I was on another forum trying to discuss various topics and a diehard solipsist kept insisting that nothing I said was of value because ALL truly intelligent people throughout history have known that nothing is real anyway and only exists within your mind. He informed me that I was too naive and reducing the quality of the philosophy forum by not accepting that obvious truth.

So it occurred to me to ask that question. He hasn’t returned a reply.

Any diehard solipsists out over here? :o
Well of course, only within your mind. What’s so hard about this?!

Solipsism is trash philosophy. All truly intelligent people throught history aren’t real anyway - they exist only in his mind.
 
Well of course, only within your mind. What’s so hard about this?!

Solipsism is trash philosophy. All truly intelligent people throught history aren’t real anyway - they exist only in his mind.
Well that was my opinion. :o

But that answer leads to “infinite regression” which is beyond mental perception and thus cannot exist within your mind.

So no cigar. Try again. 3 tries to win. 😛
 
…then within what does your mind exist?

I was on another forum trying to discuss various topics and a diehard solipsist kept insisting that nothing I said was of value because ALL truly intelligent people throughout history have known that nothing is real anyway and only exists within your mind. He informed me that I was too naive and reducing the quality of the philosophy forum by not accepting that obvious truth.

So it occurred to me to ask that question. He hasn’t returned a reply.

Any diehard solipsists out over here? :o
Then what does he expect to happen to the world when his mind stops working? For that matter, why doesn’t he go poof when somebody else goes into breathing failure, since he only exists within the minds of others?
 
For that matter, why doesn’t he go poof when somebody else goes into breathing failure, since he only exists within the minds of others?
Everyone else doesn’t exist.
Then what does he expect to happen to the world when his mind stops working?
That’s a trick question.
He becomes a solipsist. 😉
 
Then what does he expect to happen to the world when his mind stops working? For that matter, why doesn’t he go poof when somebody else goes into breathing failure, since he only exists within the minds of others?
Anybody who believes that what we experience exists only in the mind is saying that they are the only mind that exists.

Of course, it is true that i cannot prove that i am not the only being with knowledge. I cannot prove that i am not the only being that actually exists using empirical methods. This is an ***epistemological truth.

However it is not a reasonable form of skepticism. It would not be reasonable, practically speaking, to believe that i was the only mind in existence and that all my experiences were false. Are experiences are telling us that there is an objective reality, even though we cannot prove it.
 
…then within what does your mind exist?

I was on another forum trying to discuss various topics and a diehard solipsist kept insisting that nothing I said was of value because ALL truly intelligent people throughout history have known that nothing is real anyway and only exists within your mind. He informed me that I was too naive and reducing the quality of the philosophy forum by not accepting that obvious truth.

So it occurred to me to ask that question. He hasn’t returned a reply.

Any diehard solipsists out over here? :o
I wonder what he thinks of Descartes, who presents an argument out of solipsism.
 
I wonder what he thinks of Descartes, who presents an argument out of solipsism.
Descartes proved that the only true knowledge that can be determined by the senses is the fact that we exist, including everything that follows logically from that fact. I think therefore i am. This is a far cry from saying that everything we experience is only in the mind!! Descartes believed in God, he was a Catholic, and he saw God as the epistemological basis for accepting the existence of objective reality since a perfect God would not lie. He in fact constructs a version of St.Anselm argument to support his position of a realism given by God.

In any case, I am sure that Descartes believed that there was in fact an objective reality and did not go around thinking that it would be perfectly fine to jump of a building in the absence of evidence.
 
The problem here, again, is that English does not accommodate forms of insight available to some other languages due to its limiting grammar. The “in the mind only” idea of solipsism (the idea that one cannot prove existence of anything outside one’s own mental perceptions) is applicable as well to the idea of “I” as it is misunderstood in English. This problem is pointed to by RA Heinlein who said that “…in English, only the first person singular present tense of the verb ‘to be’ is true to fact.” This is an accurate statement, vital to understanding both religion and philosophy, and almost always dismissed up front by Western religionists. It is also at the root of the wholesale misunderstanding of the Teaching attributed to Jesus.

It would be good and useful for anyone involved in a philosophical discussion to understand these distinctions. They are very well treated in the prefatory material in any book by Canadian Philosopher Kenneth G. Mills, and the idea is treated at length in Franklin Merrell-Wollf’s The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object.

Now it is possible that the solipsist in question is a tyro and is ignorantly though sincerely enamored of the idea he espouses. That is fine, as so many are equally enamored with their particular christianist interpretations of the Jesus Teachings. But nevertheless, we are here at a disadvantage in our language, English, because of its essentially dualistic structure, and the pervasive subject-verb-object sequencing that brings with it certain necessary lenses that distort the actuality of the world, as if we see much of it as it is to begin with.

The Nobel Laureate David Bohm attempted to tackle this difficulty in grammatical filtering in his work Wholeness and the Implicate Order. It has also been the work of such integrational philosophers as Ken Wilbur and the whole line of exponents non-dualist perception from the beginning of Man to attempt to awaken the general population to the actual mode and condition of human perception and participation in Universe. All of them have and do take a dim perspective of this being even slightly successful, as the subtleties of Actuality are too easy to dismiss and overlook, similarly to the solution of some Chinese puzzles and riddles. We also have the overwhelming momentum of addictive, habitual thinking to overcome, and that is a monumental task, few being up to even understanding what is involved in it. That is why many Teachers have actually resorted to using shock as a mode of bypassing the pervasive hypnotic state of nearly the entire population. History is replete with these.

All of that is to preface the idea the mind, as in your mind and my mind, each being dependent on associative awareness derived from Consciousness as a Principle, is different in scope and compass from Mind, which is equatable with Consciousness itself, that Consciousness being synonymous with Principle, Life, God, and a few other such words. One of those words is Self, but we then again encounter the stubborn density of English as being unable to comprehend easily the distinction between egoic personal “self” as a shadow of Self as Principle.

But nevertheless, it is a simple matter of observation to note that all things happen first in the mind. We are even aware of what we mistakenly call external stimuli because our mind makes note of some change in the senses. Thus perception is an act of awareness, not of chemistry or of mechanics. That is why there is no response from a dead person: the associative awareness has disbonded from the body interface with the physical dimensions.

That simply means that when you look at the world, you are in fact looking at the very narrow band of sensory (name removed by moderator)ut afforded by the space suit called your body. The driver, “I,” mistakenly called “me,” is responsive as an act of awareness to sensory stimuli impinging the interface of the body. Even that body, for the “wearer,” exist in the awareness primarily. That is to say, no awareness, no association with the body or the world.

So in this sense, being clear that in the overall picture there is in fact no possible distinction between what is attributed egoically as “me” and the rest of creation, whatever is perceived as a distinction is necessarily and only in the mind and at the level of dimensional engagement of the human body and its perceived, not its actual environment. So we can say in an actual sense, the mind (human) being necessarily tuned to the structures of only a certain spectrum of perceptive possibility, and therefore ignoring the vast context of its existence, is where “it (the world and me as an inhabitant) all is.”

All that is to say that though our senses and awareness cooperate to tell us about a world “out there” and “in here,” there is in the big picture no such actual distinction except as an associative act of mind. And on examination, the very “mind” used to make these distinctions is dissolved into a different kind and quality of understanding if the right effort is made. So, in fact, the world we live in, including our own perception of ourselves, is an ad hoc construct designed to allow us to navigate in these immediate dimensions, while we ignore vast amounts of sensory and other data simply so we can get from here to the place we use our credit card to give someone else the symbolic value of our giving up our imagined time to earn a “living” which is always already completely ours.
 
Well that was my opinion. :o

But that answer leads to “infinite regression” which is beyond mental perception and thus cannot exist within your mind.

So no cigar. Try again. 3 tries to win. 😛
Uh, you didn’t get the tongue-in-cheek of my post? Guess I’ve gotta remember the “sarcasm” tag in the future 🙂
 
One of those words is Self, but we then again encounter the stubborn density of English as being unable to comprehend easily the distinction between egoic personal “self” as a shadow of Self as Principle.
I think i agree with this part if what you mean is that there is a principle that is self, and then there is also the invented self which is a product or projection of the nature that is self; the expression?
 
All that is to say that though our senses and awareness cooperate to tell us about a world “out there” and “in here,” there is in the big picture no such actual distinction except as an associative act of mind.
It seems as if you are trying to say that the distinction of subject and object is an illusion. However i don’t see how you have come to justify such a notion. It is true however that we assume that there is an objective reality because that which is presented to our minds is telling us to, as in to say it is as such that it appears as that which exists apart from ones self. It all comes down to whether you are willing to trust what appears to be so.

You also seem to say further on in your post that time is an illusion, but we experience time in the fact that we gain in knowledge.
 
Uh, you didn’t get the tongue-in-cheek of my post? Guess I’ve gotta remember the “sarcasm” tag in the future 🙂
Nahh… I have just become leery of others who might believe the statement and try to run with it. I wanted to cut it down before that happened. 😃
But nevertheless, it is a simple matter of observation to note that all things happen first in the mind. We are even aware of what we mistakenly call external stimuli because our mind makes note of some change in the senses.
Although I agree greatly with your report on the concerns of language, with the above portion of your post, I must disagree.

“A simple matter of observation” that all things happen first in the mind??:confused:

I must not be that simple. Your second sentence purports differently than the first; “because our mind makes note of some change in the senses”. If it happened first in our mind, then how is it that our mind only becomes aware of it due to detecting (hence happening before) change in sensing?

And if the change in sensing took place first (before mental awareness), then it would seem obvious that our mind is the receiver of something ELSE, that obviously is NOT in our mind.

:o
 
…time is an illusion, but we experience time in the fact that we gain in knowledge.
Actually time is perceived through our BODIES (breathing, heartbeat, sleep cycles, etc.) Even if there were no mental activity resulting in an increase of our knowledge, our bodies would inform us of the passage of time.

Nonphilosophically, time is a result of the physical entropy as it affects our bodies. If time were purely mental, we could stop it by going into “couch potato” mode:):)🙂

ICXC NIKA
 
All knowledge is formed by the distinction of effects into categories. But for an effect to exist, there must be something for it to effect - us. Thus a minimum of 2 entities must exist just for effect to exist. And to have any form of knowledge, a minimum of 3 must exist so that a distinct category can be formed.

A realm of existence is a set of all mutually affecting entities (metaphysics 101). A state is determined by the effect that all items within the realm have upon each other. The change of their state is categorized (declared) by what we named “time”. Time is our measurement of the change of state of existence.
 
Mom~ Yes, exactly. The invented self, or acquired self, is the contents of awareness accepted as a matter of learning to navigate the body and its associative properties through these dimensions. One cannot expect an infant or child to be as well a philosopher capable of penetrating the exigencies of birth and living. Inquiry into the nature of Life is then a result of need aroused by observed and experienced inconsistencies and consistencies that are unaccounted for by the acquired story. Thus begins, successful or not, the search for Reality.

Mom & James S ~I am not trying, I am saying that the distinction between subject and object is an illusion. Superficially and for ordinary purposes, it does not seem so. But think about it: For all the sameness of things as such allegedly “in” the world, we all respond/react differently to them. Is the “object” presenting differently to all of us? Or is it because of our mental set that some love a piece of art and others are indifferent? Or that your family means something to you, but not to someone else? The same with religion, the same religion itself presenting differently from, say, a holy-day-only Catholic to the Pope? The only conclusion possible is that we live primarily in our own set of mental perceptions, regardless of the presentation of any object. "Snake! Snake!.. uhhh, sorry, I saw a rope, and,…uh, you know. Go study the Teller thing about stage magic and human perception & tell (yuk yuk) me what you think.

James S~ Regarding the number of entities, as far as you, personally are concerned, without you present as the awareness in which those entities are calculated, where are they to you? Mark Twain said that he was not afraid of death because he had been dead for billions of years before he was born, and it had not seemed to effect him adversely! 😃

GEddie~ Where is your perception of your body? Is it not a mental perception first?
 
Mom & James S ~I am not trying, I am saying that the distinction between subject and object is an illusion. Superficially and for ordinary purposes, it does not seem so. But think about it: For all the sameness of things as such allegedly “in” the world, we all respond/react differently to them. Is the “object” presenting differently to all of us? Or is it because of our mental set that some love a piece of art and others are indifferent? Or that your family means something to you, but not to someone else? The same with religion, the same religion itself presenting differently from, say, a holy-day-only Catholic to the Pope? The only conclusion possible is that we live primarily in our own set of mental perceptions, regardless of the presentation of any object. "Snake! Snake!.. uhhh, sorry, I saw a rope, and,…uh, you know. Go study the Teller thing about stage magic and human perception & tell (yuk yuk) me what you think.
Incorrect. A misperception does not constitute a lack of any reality, but merely a false conclusion of that reality. A billion Chinese really can all be wrong without the conclusion that nothing is right.

Value is necessarily subjective merely because “value” is a comparative property relating to a goal. It references an implicit “value for some goal”. Each individual, having their own goal, identifies value of objects in relation to that goal and thus each have their own value assignments.
Regarding the number of entities, as far as you, personally are concerned, without you present as the awareness in which those entities are calculated, where are they to you?
The question was, if my mind is to sense something before it becomes aware, then what triggered the senses?

Even if you say that I am only sensing myself, then you violate the definition of what constitutes myself by separating myself from my senses. If my senses are myself, then you are saying that my senses sense themselves.

But if that were the case, then of what does my mind become aware, my senses sensing themselves? Or perhaps my senses sensing my awareness of their sensing my awareness of them sensing my awareness of them sensing my awareness… ad infinitum with no initial trigger? How could there be distinction or the lack of sensing at any time? All would become the same.

But of course, my initial question is still not addressed; “Within what does my mind (or me) exist?”
 
Isn’t a misperception a “lack” of reality" to you? You always act on what you percieve to be so. That is invariably less than the totality of the actuality, and therefore illusional by definition. In other words, it matters not a whit what a supposed “objective” reality might be, as even that is partial unless we are talking about the entirety of Creation, inclusive of all aspects known and unknown, and its God, as if That was seperate. No matter how you slice it, each one of us is dealing in partials filtered through our own predilections. How can it be otherwise, and what use is it to postulate something outside that if that is not what you are dealing with? We each always deal always and only with our perceptions. So no matter what, you always have not only a billion Chines “wrong,” which only means acting according to incomplete and/or distorted perceptions, but all of mankind. “Right” has nothing to do with it, save as a relative value.

Does it matter what triggered your senses? Each of us reacts to different things. Walk down the street three times, each time walking under a different hat. First, go a block pretending to be a line man checking power pole connections and e equipment. Second, do the same block as if you are looking for a lost child. Third, walk that block as if you are scoping places for a burglary. In each instance, your filter determines what you see and its relative value. Just because you are you and don’t do any special exercises this way, do you not think that your mind already hasn’t a preconceived set of James S filters?

If I say I that you are sensing yourself, the only thing I am violating is the misconception that constitutes the common human hypnosis that “I am my thoughts.” “I” am the light to “me.” which “me,” if you have not seen beyond it, constitutes the entirety of your alleged reality. This is the illusion that systems such as Zen and others throughout history seek to demolish, in order for the candidate to be able to see clearly, and not, as St. Paul said, “through a glass darkly.” Whereas christianism et al start at adding contents to the mind, other systems make you understand first that you are dealing with a mind that is built on deception.

And no, your senses do not sense themselves. The play of senses takes place in awareness as lit by Consciousness. Awareness is the realm of “me,” Consciousness is where the “I” resides. So your mind is in awareness, lit by Consciousness. This is experiencible. Experiencing it has been the door offered by the mystery religions from which christainism devolved into a popularization of the sacred acts of transformation exemplified by the Jesus story and similar stories from time immemorial. This is history, and provable by your own effort.
 
Isn’t a misperception a “lack” of reality" to you?
No. It represents a false reality in place of the real one (that’s why they call it “REALity”).
Does it matter what triggered your senses?
Only to conscious responsible adults.
So your mind is in awareness, lit by Consciousness.
So my mind is within “awareness”. - kewl.

Emmm… so within what is this Awareness?

Let me guess; it’s in my Consciousness?

Which is in my mind? Which is in my Awareness? Which is in my Consciousness? Which is in the house that Jack built - in his mind? :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top