If all the copies of the Bibles in the world were destroyed how would you preach the Gospel?

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Why not push this question to its logical limit?

Hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics or Protestants preach the gospel if any and all Christian literature/writing was completely eradicated?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Because not only do we have the word of God, but we have the Word of God.

 

[Finrock]

Good evening Byzantine_Wolf. I hope you’ve been well!

Because not only do we have the word of God, but we have the Word of God.

Thank you for responding to my questions. I’m afraid I don’t understand your response, however. I am assuming that you are answering my “Why” question since you started your statement with “Because…” If that is the case, let me ask a question of clarification:

Are you saying that the reason why we should not push this question to its logical limit is because the Orthodox(?) have Jesus?

You do realize this is a hypothetical question, just as the OP was a hypothetical question? The question is the same except it is just extended out further then just the Bible. In any case, I’m not following you. Will you please clarify?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I say “we” to refer to all orthodox (little “o”) Christians. What I meant was this:

The Bible is the word of God, the written word given by divine guidance to godly men. It is the literal word.

Christ is the Word of God - the incarnate Word, the spiritual Word. This Word in the beginning with God, the Word Who was God (John 1:1), and the Word which became flesh (John 1:14). This is the source of our live, our Church, and our very being. If the word were taken away, the Word would still be with us.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2 Corinthians 5:1]

There are some whom I heard to say, “Unless I find it in the documents, I do not believe in what is preached.” When I said, “It is the written word,” they replied, “That is what is in question.” For me, Jesus Christ is the written word; His cross and death and resurrection and faith through Him make up untampered documents. Through these, with the help of your prayers, I desire to be justified. [Saint Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians]

 

[Finrock]

I say “we” to refer to all orthodox (little “o”) Christians. What I meant was this:

OK, thanks for the clarification.

The Bible is the word of God, the written word given by divine guidance to godly men. It is the literal word.

Check.

Christ is the Word of God - the incarnate Word, the spiritual Word. This Word in the beginning with God, the Word Who was God (John 1:1), and the Word which became flesh (John 1:14).

I understand that.

This is the source of our live, our Church, and our very being. If the word were taken away, the Word would still be with us.

Sure, that makes sense. Jesus exist even without the scriptures.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. [2 Corinthians 5:1]

There are some whom I heard to say, “Unless I find it in the documents, I do not believe in what is preached.” When I said, “It is the written word,” they replied, “That is what is in question.” For me, Jesus Christ is the written word; His cross and death and resurrection and faith through Him make up untampered documents. Through these, with the help of your prayers, I desire to be justified. [Saint Ignatius, Epistle to the Philadelphians

OK, so here was my question:

Hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics or Protestants preach the gospel if any and all Christian literature/writing was completely eradicated?

I’m trying to put your response within a context that fits the question. It doesn’t seem to fit, so please excuse me if I get this wrong. If I got this right, I think you are saying that if all Christian literature/writings were destroyed, you would continue to preach the gospel orally?

Kind Regards,
Finrock
[/quote]

 

[LilyM]

Why not push this question to its logical limit?

Hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics or Protestants preach the gospel if any and all Christian literature/writing was completely eradicated?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

Same way the Apostles did - for some decades they didn’t have writings of any kind (not even the earliest of Paul’s epistles).

 

[Finrock]

Good evening LilyM. It is a pleasure to meet you!

Thank you for reading and resonding to my post.

Same way the Apostles did - for some decades they didn’t have writings of any kind (not even the earliest of Paul’s epistles).

The Apostles had the “Old Testament” as scripture. Also, the Apostles were entitled to revelation. It is through revelation that the New Testament scriptures were written.

The question assumes no written scripture, so the Catholic church couldn’t continue to teach exactly as the Apostles taught since they did have written scripture. Are you suggesting then that the Catholic church would teach via revelation like the Apostles?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[LilyM]

Good evening LilyM. It is a pleasure to meet you!

Thank you for reading and resonding to my post.

The Apostles had the “Old Testament” as scripture. Also, the Apostles were entitled to revelation. It is through revelation that the New Testament scriptures were written.

The question assumes no written scripture, so the Catholic church couldn’t continue to teach exactly as the Apostles taught since they did have written scripture. Are you suggesting then that the Catholic church would teach via revelation like the Apostles?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

We believe that all public revelation ended with the death of the Apostle John. So it’s not a matter of fresh revelation. For 2,000-odd years it’s just been a matter of preserving and clarifying, and gaining deeper understanding of, that existing Apostolic revelation.

Certainly the guidance of the Holy Spirit has been promised to help us in that task, and Christ has assured us of His presence among His faithful until the end of the world.

How these would operate in practice to protect His revealed truth absent written scripture is something we can’t even guess at.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

OK, so here was my question:

Hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics or Protestants preach the gospel if any and all Christian literature/writing was completely eradicated?

I’m trying to put your response within a context that fits the question. It doesn’t seem to fit, so please excuse me if I get this wrong. If I got this right, I think you are saying that if all Christian literature/writings were destroyed, you would continue to preach the gospel orally?

Do you know what happened to the Russian Orthodox Church during and after the Russian Revolution? It was nearly destroyed. The Communist government persecuted the Russian Christians and their church miserably - I’m talking about soldiers dragging priests out of the middle of liturgy and shooting them, and dumping nuns into a mineshaft with grenades tumbling in after them. Patriarchs were poisoned, bishops assassinated, churches burned, and the number of priests dropped from the tens of thousands to a few hundred.

Do you know what happened after the Communist efforts ceased? The Church experienced a massive rebirth. Today it has obtained over a third of its original strength and is still growing every day. As Eusebius said regarding Christian persecution under the Romans, such a rebirth cannot be the work of man but the grace of God, and a sign of His presence within the Church.

Christ gave a solemn promise to His followers:

"…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [Matthew 28:20]

This promise was made before Pentecost, before a single passage in the New Testament was written, and before the Bible was collected together. This passage was not just to the apostles, but to all men after them. It is perhaps the greatest promise ever made, because the One making it could never, ever under any possibility break it.

So, on this promise we know that the Word of God will allow the Christian Church to endure, and for His flock to always be prepared. Even if all churches were burned down and Bibles eradicated, Christians would still be able to worship, pray, and bring others into the fold.

 

[Finrock]

Do you know what happened to the Russian Orthodox Church during and after the Russian Revolution? It was nearly destroyed. The Communist government persecuted the Russian Christians and their church miserably - I’m talking about soldiers dragging priests out of the middle of liturgy and shooting them, and dumping nuns into a mineshaft with grenades tumbling in after them. Patriarchs were poisoned, bishops assassinated, churches burned, and the number of priests dropped from the tens of thousands to a few hundred.

Do you know what happened after the Communist efforts ceased? The Church experienced a massive rebirth. Today it has obtained over a third of its original strength and is still growing every day. As Eusebius said regarding Christian persecution under the Romans, such a rebirth cannot be the work of man but the grace of God, and a sign of His presence within the Church.

Yes, I’ve studied the subject quite a bit. I even know personally people who suffered through those times in Russia. Very horrible time in Christian history.

Christ gave a solemn promise to His followers:

"…and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [Matthew 28:20]

This promise was made before Pentecost, before a single passage in the New Testament was written, and before the Bible was collected together. This passage was not just to the apostles, but to all men after them. It is perhaps the greatest promise ever made, because the One making it could never, ever under any possibility break it.

Let me clarify again that the question is a hypothetical, so this isn’t a question of whether or not, in reality, any of these things will occur, but just hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics and/or Protestants continue to teach the gospel without any Christian writings/literature?

As far as reality goes, sure, it’s not going to happen, but that isn’t the point of hypothetical questions. Hypothetical questions are intented as a tool to study the logical conclusion of a certain line of reasoning. That is the exercise here, if you wish to partake.

So, on this promise we know that the Word of God will allow the Christian Church to endure, and for His flock to always be prepared. Even if all churches were burned down and Bibles eradicated, Christians would still be able to worship, pray, and bring others into the fold.

Now, you’ve lumpped all Christians together in your response, but not all Christians would have the same response, I don’t think. Certainly I appretiate your comments and as a Christian, and to a large extent I agree with them too. However, I’m still having a hard time fitting your response in to the context of the question. Let me post it once more:

Hypothetically speaking, how would Catholics or Protestants preach the gospel if any and all Christian literature/writing was completely eradicated?

Now, I understand that Christians in general will be able to “worship, pray, and bring others into the fold”, but my question is asking how it would be done. So, since you are coming from an Orthodox perspective, how, specifically, would the Orthodox church preach the Gospel without any written Christian literature whatsoever?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

So, since you are coming from an Orthodox perspective, how, specifically, would the Orthodox church preach the Gospel without any written Christian literature whatsoever?

Same way it did with the apostles, who had no written Christian literature By the grace of God, as I’ve said before. The Word of God guides the Church even without the written word of God.

 

[Finrock]

Hello again Byzantine_Wolf.

Same way it did with the apostles, who had no written Christian literature By the grace of God, as I’ve said before. The Word of God guides the Church even without the written word of God.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I wouldn’t necessarily agree that the Apostles didn’t have written “Christian” scripture. Personally, I believe all scripture, even the Old Testament scripture, points to Christ and His atonement. I would argue that all prophets knew and testified of Jesus Christ.

But, even given that point, the Apostles had inspired scripture that came from God and from which they drew on to teach and expound the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, unless I’m missing something, the Orthodox/Catholic church couldn’t approach teaching the gospel in the same way as the Apostles in this sense.

Are you suggesting then that the written scriptures are very important, but ulimately unnecessary, because the Orthodox church doesn’t need them in order to continue to exist?

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

But, even given that point, the Apostles had inspired scripture that came from God and from which they drew on to teach and expound the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, unless I’m missing something, the Orthodox/Catholic church couldn’t approach teaching the gospel in the same way as the Apostles in this sense.

Are you suggesting then that the written scriptures are very important, but ulimately unnecessary, because the Orthodox church doesn’t need them in order to continue to exist?

OK, the following parable will be a bit campy, so bear with me

There’s a famous Japanese film series character called Zatoichi, a blind swordsman that doubles as a masseuse. In one film he finds a blind guitar-player with whom he quickly bonds. During one scene the guitar-player’s instrument breaks a string, yet he keeps playing. When Zatoichi points this out, the guitar-player says that he has learned not to rely on all strings - and quickly uses this metaphor to point out that Zatoichi cannot always rely on his hearing, least it ever be used against him.

Do we need the scripture? Of course. But we cannot be like the Pharisees, who worshiped the Sabbath and the Law thereby forgetting He who gave them both, and we cannot be like Martha, who remembered the promise of a Resurrection but forgot He who could make any Resurrection possible. Likewise, we must remember He who gave us the scripture and not become so reliant on scripture that we forget its real source.

So in the extreme hypothetical situation that all the scripture in the world ceased to exist, Christians still have our God who gave it to us to go by. Our way of life is to worship our Lord, and it serves no other purpose. We do not need scripture to do this, because we know God through His signs, prophets, and of course His Incarnate Son.

The faithful would be able to continue quoting scripture and teaching the lessons of our Lord, just as the apostles did before any gospel was written. Certainly they had the Old Testament, but no gospel had been written until much later. Nevertheless, by the time the gospels were written, the apostles had already spread out across the Middle East and even into Rome. How was this possible? By the grace of God. Likewise, Christianity will continue to persevere by the grace of God and no other source.

 

[Christian55]

LDS: Would you continue this in oral tradition?

Journal of Discourses (JD)
JD 6:2 – p.3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
My first object is to find out the character of the only wise and true God, and what kind of being he is; and if I am so fortunate as to be the man to comprehend God, and explain or convey the principles to your hearts, so that the Spirit seals them upon you, then let every man and woman henceforth sit in silence, put their hands on their mouths, and never lift their hands or voices or say anything against the man of God or the servants of God again. But if I fail to do it, it becomes my duty to renounce all further pretensions to revelations, inspirations, or to be a Prophet; and I should be like the rest of the world – a false teacher, be hailed as a friend, and no man would seek my life. But if all religious teachers were honest enough to renounce their pretensions to godliness, when their ignorance of the knowledge of God is made manifest, they will all be as badly off as I am, at any rate; and you might just as well take the lives of other false teachers as that of mine, if I am false. If any man is authorized to take away my life because he things and says I am a false teacher, then, upon the same principle, we should be justified in taking away the life of every false teacher; and where would be the end of blood? And who would not be the sufferer?

JD 6:3, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
But meddle not with any man for his religion; and all governments ought to permit every man to enjoy his religion unmolested. No man is authorized to take away life in consequence of difference of religion, which all laws and governments ought to tolerate and protect, right or wrong. Every man has a natural and, in our country, a constitutional right to be a false prophet as well as a true prophet. If I show, verily, that I have the truth of God, and show that ninety-nine out of every hundred professing religious ministers are false teachers, having no authority, while they pretend to hold the keys of God’s kingdom on earth, and was to kill them because they are false teachers, it would deluge the whole world with blood.

I will prove that the world is wrong, by showing what God is. I am going to inquire after God; for I want you all to know him and to be familiar with him; and if I can bring you to a knowledge of him, all persecutions against me ought to cease. You will then know that I am his servant; for I speak as one having authority.

I will go back to the beginning, before the world was, to show what kind of being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth; for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why he interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible, --I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form –like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for the consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary that we should understand the character and being of God, and how he came to be so; for** I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity, I will refute that idea, and will take away and do away the vail, so that you may see.
**
These are incomprehensible ideas to some; but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. I wish I was in a suitable place to tell it, and that I had the trump of an archangel, so that I could tell the story in such a manner that persecution would cease for ever. What did Jesus say? (Mark it, Elder Rigdon.) The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, “As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power”–to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious—in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you doing to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you
do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible. The Scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.

JD 6:4, Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844
Here, then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all the Gods have done before you, - namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one, - from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in every lasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me.

 

[Christian55]

The purpose of my last post is to ask, not only LDS Forum Members, but all of us-- if we would be tempted to rewrite or in any way alter what we know to be the Gospel.

That has indeed happened throughout history, but the truth seems to prevail in the end.

I think if all copies of the Bibles in the world were destroyed; God’s people would preach the Gospel according to the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and the recollection of God’s Word, written upon their hearts.

I think the big issue here, is how well do we know God’s word at any given time? Without faithful study of God’s word, we would be at a loss.

However, I believe God will always preserve His Word. There are Christians and Jews who do write the Word of God upon their hearts. So, they would be a ready vessel to proclaim the Gospel, as well as all Holy Scripture.

I must admit, I fall short of this task, which makes me realize, even as I write, how much more time I need to spend in God’s Word.

Even these Forums can consume time. They do help us understand one another. But, at the end of the day, I must examine myself and ask how much of my writing here really makes a difference. Probably very little.

So, I would say this is a very good question; and it may lead me to spend more time in God’s Word; and less time here. I’m sure there is more than one person, who would rejoice, if I dropped off the Forums.

 

[Publisher]

Suppose if all the copies of the Bibles were destroyed by a extreme secular government (could be your native country). How would you as a Christian preach the Gospel?

For as Catholics, our answer is preached orally like the early Apostles to spread the Gospel of Christ.

It has been said that should the Bible be lost to us, most of it could be reconstructed from the writings of George Fox’s journal.

 

[Reuben_J]

Suppose all Catholics lost all memory of any and all oral tradition? How would you preach the Gospel of Christ?

Jon

That’s not fair, Jon, though a good one. Is it a dig at the OP’s hypothetical question?

Seriously, the Bible won’t be wiped out from the face of the earth nor our memory will go blank either though these must be the least in OP’s mind when he posed the question.

When the Church decided (canonized) on which books to be included in the Bible, they would mean to strengthen and to explain her belief, practices and the doctrine that were already in place. Since not all of these were explicitly stated in the Bible, it therefore comes to reason that in understanding what its content means; one must therefore refer back to the Church on what the original intention was.

Which is why the Bible cannot be understood in its fullness without knowing and understanding the tradition from which it came from. Reading it through 21st century lens one can easily miss the thrust and the intention of the Gospels. The Holy Spirit helps us by inspiring us on how the Bible addresses our personal and corporate lives but He will not change the original message.

It is a problem therefore if our Christian practices today differ very prominently from that of the early Christians and the Early Church Fathers. Maybe the OP wants the discussion to go along that line, I think. Theoretically Catholics would be able to preach the Gospel even if there is no Bible because the Church is the ‘author’ of the Bible, so to speak.

The Roman Church is such an awesome institution with an awesome tradition that if one want to know about Christianity, one would find it there right back to the first apostle. Tradition has it that the bone of St Peter is buried somewhere underneath the Basilica of the Vatican. So where else can we go if we want to delve into the original church that Christ set and built?

 

[John7]

Heard tell there are some Greek monks who’ve got the Greek NT down to memory, there has to be Latin monks who can do this too. Anyway its not *that *long (the NT) especially compared to Hebrew OT. All you would have to do is go and hang-out with the monks a couple years or however long it takes and you’re ready to go. There has to be someone here at CAF who’s got one, say 30-verse chapter down to memory. I’m slowly working on John chapter 3 but not quite there yet.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Suppose if all the copies of the Bibles were destroyed by a extreme secular government (could be your native country). How would you as a Christian preach the Gospel?

For as Catholics, our answer is preached orally like the early Apostles to spread the Gospel of Christ.

The word is always preached “orally.” As far as finding the biblical text, you can find it online now.

 

[peary2]

Suppose if all the copies of the Bibles were destroyed by a extreme secular government (could be your native country). How would you as a Christian preach the Gospel?

For as Catholics, our answer is preached orally like the early Apostles to spread the Gospel of Christ.

Even if the Bible never existed, you still would have the Church to preach the Good News.

 

[JonNC]

=Reuben J;5443865]That’s not fair, Jon, though a good one. Is it a dig at the OP’s hypothetical question?

Rueben! I can’t believe you’d think I’d offer a dig at someone.

Seriously, the Bible won’t be wiped out from the face of the earth nor our memory will go blank either though these must be the least in OP’s mind when he posed the question.

Of course not.

When the Church decided (canonized) on which books to be included in the Bible, they would mean to strengthen and to explain her belief, practices and the doctrine that were already in place. Since not all of these were explicitly stated in the Bible, it therefore comes to reason that in understanding what its content means; one must therefore refer back to the Church on what the original intention was.

Which is why the Bible cannot be understood in its fullness without knowing and understanding the tradition from which it came from. Reading it through 21st century lens one can easily miss the thrust and the intention of the Gospels. The Holy Spirit helps us by inspiring us on how the Bible addresses our personal and corporate lives but He will not change the original message.

I agree, and I think Orthodox and many Protestants would, too. There is at least two ongoing threads related to fullness of truth - who teaches it, who has it. But your point of understanding scripture through the lens of the ECF’s and early councils is not lost on Lutherans and some others.

It is a problem therefore if our Christian practices today differ very prominently from that of the early Christians and the Early Church Fathers. Maybe the OP wants the discussion to go along that line, I think. Theoretically Catholics would be able to preach the Gospel even if there is no Bible because the Church is the ‘author’ of the Bible, so to speak.

I think , in large part, this is the broad issue of dialogue between Chrsitian traditions, and how we can answer Christ’s call to unity. One must remember that most of our traditions trace their roots back to that early, unified Church of which you speak here.

The Roman Church is such an awesome institution with an awesome tradition that if one want to know about Christianity, one would find it there right back to the first apostle. Tradition has it that the bone of St Peter is buried somewhere underneath the Basilica of the Vatican. So where else can we go if we want to delve into the original church that Christ set and built?

Those of us not (currently) in communion with the Bishop of Rome cannot deny the valuable role the Catholic Church has played in Church history. It would be denying history to do so.

Jon