If an eastern Catholic is excommunicated

[malphono]

the problem is what if different confessors would tell me different things then I’ll never know if I’m excommunicated or not…

A confessor will advise and absolve IF absolution is needed. Please try not to be overly scrupulous. That’s a different problem in and of itself, and one that might also be brought up with a confessor.

 

[Ghosty]

but what would you say this means?
Can. 1365 A person guilty of prohibited participation in sacred rites (communicatio in sacris) is to be punished with a just penalty.

and from the 1917 Canon Law:
Canon 1258§1 “It is not lawful for the faithful in any way to assist actively at or to take part in the worship of non-Catholics.”

this does not say the word “schismatic”… it just refers to worship with non Catholics…

The 1917 Code is not in force anymore, even in the Latin Church, so it’s irrelevant.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Vico]

I learned that in the Church, there are automatic excommunications, for example for abortion, heresy, schism, disrespect to the Eucharist, etc…

if a person is an Eastern Catholic and they’ve done this, can their excommunication be lifted by the Latin bishop, or does it have to be an Eastern bishop? but what if their bishop is the Latin one, - such as the case with the Russian Catholic church, which has no own bishop? if the Latin bishop gave permission to any priest in his diocese to lift the excommunication, can the person go to any Roman Catholic priest for this? (even though they are Eastern Catholic)

just wondering… thank you!

Russian Greek-Catholics do have a proper pastor, it just is not of their own Church sui iuris. They (faithful and clergy serving them) are to apply the eastern canon laws of the CCEO.

There is a difference in the 1983 CIC and the 1990 CCEO in regard to the Holy Mystery of Penance. A striking difference is that the CCEO has the concept of reserved sins but not the CIC which has latae sententiae penalties. The CCEO has only one ferendae sententiae penalties for bodily force against a Patriarch, Roman Pontiff, or Metropolitan.

 

[Diakonia]

You ask a question, but you don’t want an answer, unless it’s the one that you’ve decided on. Do you see that? Do you understand that is its own problem?

To reiterate what has been said:

• the Council of Trent is not at issue here, we no longer run around hurling anathamae, the laws of the Church in regard to these matters have been codified
• the 1917 Code is not in effect: as to the Latin Church, it was abrogated by the 1983 CIC; as to the Eastern and Oriental Churches, it was abrogated by the 1990 CCEO
• other than bodily force against a Metropolitan, a Patriarch, or the Pope, there are no reserved penalties in effect under the CCEO
• the Orthodox are not ‘non-Catholics’
• the Orthodox are not schismatics
• the Orthodox are not heretics
• worshipping in an Orthodox temple is not any kind of a sin, let alone one punished by excommunication
• participating in the Mysteries in an Orthodox temple, including the Mystery of the Eucharist, is not a sin and is, in fact, specifically allowed under the Codes, although Catholics are requested by our hierarchs to not do so if the Orthodox ask us not to do so

This is going to sound harsh, but I don’t know any other way to get the point across (and I’m unconvinced that even absolute bluntness will serve the purpose because you seem to abandon any thread once someone calls you to task, lest they convince you of anything that you’ve decided not to believe). I’ve read enough of your posts that it’s clear to me that you are not easily dissuaded from this path of emotional chastisement that you’ve elected to follow.

You acknowledge issues with scrupulosity, but you say nothing of having done anything to deal with these. Looking at other posts that you’ve made, you need to seek out both spiritual and secular help - a confessor and a mental health professional. You are on a slippery slope, one that is going to cause you extremely serious problems (not that you don’t have serious ones already, by your own admission and as evidenced by your writings) if you don’t take responsibility for doing something about them and do it soon.

Your scrupulosity, your obsessiveness, your absolute fixation on being right in wanting to somehow be spiritually unworthy, all of these things are both spiritually and psychologically unhealthy. You are, undoubtedly a good person, much as you want to believe yourself not to be.

You are also an exquisite example of the kind of person who should avoid posting on internet religious fora because you appear unable to discern the differences between what constitutes the reality of human frailty in the exercise of one’s spirituality and a personal spiritual utopia the perfection of which is beyond human achievement. And, regretably, if you forum shop enough, you will find others who will support you in this type of deluded thinking - because folks like that pervasively inhabit such venues.

None of us are worthy. That’s because we are human. That’s because God gave us free will. He expects us to strive for perfection. He does not expect or demand that we emotionally flagellate ourselves in the effort to do so because, when we do, we waste time and energy that could be expended in prayer, good works, spiritual enlightenment, and just being good persons - for Him, for ourselves, for our loved ones, for the world.

 

[NewsTheMan]

• the Orthodox are not ‘non-Catholics’

I really didn’t know that. Can someone explain? I thought we had Catholics, Orthodox and then Protestants. I always understood that Orthodox and Catholics were two lungs within the same body as the phrase goes… but still a bit confused after reading this

(sorry to be off topic!)

 

[Vico]

Russian Greek-Catholics do have a proper pastor, it just is not of their own Church sui iuris. They (faithful and clergy serving them) are to apply the eastern canon laws of the CCEO.

There is a difference in the 1983 CIC and the 1990 CCEO in regard to the Holy Mystery of Penance. A striking difference is that the CCEO has the concept of reserved sins but not the CIC which has latae sententiae penalties. The CCEO has only one ferendae sententiae penalties for bodily force against a Patriarch, Roman Pontiff, or Metropolitan.

I actually intended to write proper ordinary (bishop) here.

 

[Monica4316]

Russian Greek-Catholics do have a proper pastor, it just is not of their own Church sui iuris. They (faithful and clergy serving them) are to apply the eastern canon laws of the CCEO.

There is a difference in the 1983 CIC and the 1990 CCEO in regard to the Holy Mystery of Penance. A striking difference is that the CCEO has the concept of reserved sins but not the CIC which has latae sententiae penalties. The CCEO has only one ferendae sententiae penalties for bodily force against a Patriarch, Roman Pontiff, or Metropolitan.

I don’t really understand…I was told that my bishop is the local Latin bishop? not an Eastern one? which Eastern bishop would it be?

are you saying that according to the Eastern canon law, - schism or communicatio in sacris do not result in an excommunication? However there is an excommunication in the Latin canon law (I don’t know if it applies to me or not) - so I’m not sure… I’ll need to speak with a priest about all this

You ask a question, but you don’t want an answer, unless it’s the one that you’ve decided on. Do you see that? Do you understand that is its own problem?

Diakonia, - this is not because I’ve “made up my mind”, but because sometimes when people tell me that there’s nothing to worry about here, - either the issue is not addressed, or they say that it’s okay to worship with the Orthodox but the Church teaching is that it is not.

• the Orthodox are not ‘non-Catholics’

• the Orthodox are not schismatics

I’m sorry but this is not what the Church teaches. The Church does teach that the EO are in schism… and they are not Catholic, because they don’t have the Pope. This is not just my opinion.

You acknowledge issues with scrupulosity, but you say nothing of having done anything to deal with these. Looking at other posts that you’ve made, you need to seek out both spiritual and secular help - a confessor and a mental health professional. You are on a slippery slope, one that is going to cause you extremely serious problems (not that you don’t have serious ones already, by your own admission and as evidenced by your writings) if you don’t take responsibility for doing something about them and do it soon.

I don’t try to “diagnose” people online, when I don’t know them, yet sometimes people try to diagnose me. I came here asking a question about Canon Law. If I need to get help with scrupulosity etc, I see my priest.

Your scrupulosity, your obsessiveness, your absolute fixation on being right in wanting to somehow be spiritually unworthy, all of these things are both spiritually and psychologically unhealthy. You are, undoubtedly a good person, much as you want to believe yourself not to be.

This has nothing to do with me “being a bad person”. This is about wanting to be in good standing with the Church… just think if you had found a part in Canon Law saying that you might be automatically excommunicated for something you did, - would you not want to ask someone about that, to make sure? The answers I’ve been given are confusing because people are saying different things. So I want to see if maybe anyone just has more information. I’ll speak with a priest as well, but I’m not able to at this moment.

You are also an exquisite example of the kind of person who should avoid posting on internet religious fora because you appear unable to discern the differences between what constitutes the reality of human frailty in the exercise of one’s spirituality and a personal spiritual utopia the perfection of which is beyond human achievement. And, regretably, if you forum shop enough, you will find others who will support you in this type of deluded thinking - because folks like that pervasively inhabit such venues.

I’m sorry but I think that you are judging me. I’m not trying to be “perfect”. I’m just trying to not be excommunicated. lol. Again, if you did something and then read in canon law that this action results in excommunication, - wouldn’t you really want to know the truth?

God bless

 

[ThatOneGuy92]

Go ask a priest and, if necessary, contact a canon lawyer.

 

[Vico]

I don’t really understand…I was told that my bishop is the local Latin bishop? not an Eastern one? which Eastern bishop would it be?

are you saying that according to the Eastern canon law, - schism or communicatio in sacris do not result in an excommunication? However there is an excommunication in the Latin canon law (I don’t know if it applies to me or not) - so I’m not sure… I’ll need to speak with a priest about all this
…

You said you are Russian Greek-Catholic, which means, since they do not have a jurisdiction in the USA with their own eparch or exarch, that your proper ordinary is the Latin Church bishop in the Latin diocese where you live.

The laws that apply to you are from CCEO, therefore there are reserved sins, but not* latae sententia*. There is excommunition and other penalties, for example:

CCEOCanon 1440
One who violates the norms of law concerning communicatio in sacris can be punished with an appropriate penalty.
CCEO Canon 1442
Whoever has thrown away the Divine Eucharist or taken or retained it for a sacrilegious purpose, is to be punished with a major ex-communication and, if he is a cleric, also with other penalties, not excluding deposition.
CCEO Canon 1437
One who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church, or who subject to it refuses communion with the Christian faithful, though legitimately admonished does not obey, is to be punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication.

 

[Monica4316]

You said you are Russian Greek-Catholic, which means, since they do not have a jurisdiction in the USA with their own eparch or exarch, that your proper ordinary is the Latin Church bishop in the Latin diocese where you live.

The laws that apply to you are from CCEO, therefore there are reserved sins, but not* latae sententia*. There is excommunition and other penalties, for example:

CCEOCanon 1440
One who violates the norms of law concerning communicatio in sacris can be punished with an appropriate penalty.
CCEO Canon 1442
Whoever has thrown away the Divine Eucharist or taken or retained it for a sacrilegious purpose, is to be punished with a major ex-communication and, if he is a cleric, also with other penalties, not excluding deposition.
CCEO Canon 1437
One who refuses subjection to the supreme authority of the Church, or who subject to it refuses communion with the Christian faithful, though legitimately admonished does not obey, is to be punished as a schismatic with a major excommunication.

what would the “appropriate penalty” be? I find this confusing because who can I ask? I don’t go to a Russian Catholic parish, or even an Eastern rite parish… I attend a Latin rite parish but the priest there is probably not an expert on canon law. Am I supposed to speak with the Latin bishop? I don’t even know how… and I don’t know if the Eastern meaning of “Communicatio in sacris” is sharing in worship, or receiving Communion… (I didn’t receive Communion)

 

[Monica4316]

The Russian Orthodox church (where I was baptized initially) is not the Russian Catholic church… the Russian Orthodox are not in communion with the Pope and they reject the Papacy, in fact, so they are not Catholic.

Eastern Catholics are those who maybe used to be Orthodox, in many cases, but then came back to the Pope. Orthodox reject the Pope.

 

[Ignatius]

what would the “appropriate penalty” be? I find this confusing because who can I ask? I don’t go to a Russian Catholic parish, or even an Eastern rite parish… I attend a Latin rite parish but the priest there is probably not an expert on canon law. Am I supposed to speak with the Latin bishop? I don’t even know how… and I don’t know if the Eastern meaning of “Communicatio in sacris” is sharing in worship, or receiving Communion… (I didn’t receive Communion)

If I were in that situation I would take it to my spiritual director or confessor for proper guidance in the matter.

God bless and give you His peace.

 

[Monica4316]

Maybe I’ll try asking an Eastern rite priest what the Eastern canon means… and I’ll ask my priest what I should do about this

A lot of people are telling me not to worry, but this is worrying me quite a bit, because it’s so complicated especially with the different rites, etc.

 

[5Loaves]

In any event, one can always bring the matter up with a confessor just to dispel any lingering doubts.

It doesn’t really make a lot of difference. But mention it to a confessor. It will make you feel a lot better.

why don’t you just go to your confessor and make a confession?

you need to seek out both spiritual and secular help - a confessor and a mental health professional. .

Go ask a priest and, if necessary, contact a canon lawyer.

You said you are Russian Greek-Catholic, which means, since they do not have a jurisdiction in the USA with their own eparch or exarch, that your proper ordinary is the Latin Church bishop in the Latin diocese where you live.

If I were in that situation I would take it to my spiritual director or confessor for proper guidance in the matter.

God bless and give you His peace.

Amen.

… and I’ll ask my priest what I should do about this

Good idea.

 

[Vico]

what would the “appropriate penalty” be? I find this confusing because who can I ask? I don’t go to a Russian Catholic parish, or even an Eastern rite parish… I attend a Latin rite parish but the priest there is probably not an expert on canon law. Am I supposed to speak with the Latin bishop? I don’t even know how… and I don’t know if the Eastern meaning of “Communicatio in sacris” is sharing in worship, or receiving Communion… (I didn’t receive Communion)

Communicatio in sacris is the same in the two codes, and means indiscriminate sacramental sharing. Indifferentism is to be avoided, and there are published ecumenical and liturgical norms.

See this link for DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM (1993) Item 115.

+++

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html

drvc.org/the-chancery/special-circumstances-for-the-admission-of-other-christians-to-communion-at-catholic-celebrations-of-the-eucharist-in-the-diocese-of-rockville-centre.html

Excommunication could be a penalty for prohibited communicatio in sacris, but prohibited communicatio in sacris is not as severe as schism, heresy, or apostasy, and it is certainly not automatic in eastern code.

And how can it be comission of serious sin without personal knowledge that it is prohibited?

The Latin bishops are obligated to help the eastern faithful in their care, it is written in the canons. If you have questions write a letter to the bishop (or call), but it may take a month to get an answer. You can call the Chancery also to get questions answered, if they do not have the answer, they can research it.

Eastern Liturgical Norms

byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm

 

[Hesychios]

Orthodox reject the Pope…

Orthodox do not ‘reject the Pope’. Lutherans reject the Pope because they once were under his authority, Anglicans likewise. They accepted bishops from him, and their archbishops accepted the pallium from him.

Orthodox never had a ‘Pope’, ever. There was and is (even today), nothing to reject. Orthodox always have had their own Metropolitans and Synods, their own Apostolic Sees and ancient Patriarchates, they never needed an other one.

Orthodox do not reject the Pope of Rome any more than they reject the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, both separated from and rejected Holy Orthodoxy by their own decisive acts, not the other way around. Both are more than welcome to return, we will kill the fatted calf for them!

Not that I expect anything like that to happen anytime soon.

I hope you find peace in your convictions. Peace and Harmony to you and may God bless you …

 

[Monica4316]

Communicatio in sacris is the same in the two codes, and means indiscriminate sacramental sharing. Indifferentism is to be avoided, and there are published ecumenical and liturgical norms.

See this link for DIRECTORY FOR THE APPLICATION OF PRINCIPLES AND NORMS ON ECUMENISM (1993) Item 115.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/general-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930325_directory_en.html

drvc.org/the-chancery/special-circumstances-for-the-admission-of-other-christians-to-communion-at-catholic-celebrations-of-the-eucharist-in-the-diocese-of-rockville-centre.html

Excommunication could be a penalty for prohibited communicatio in sacris, but prohibited communicatio in sacris is not as severe as schism, heresy, or apostasy, and it is certainly not automatic in eastern code.

And how can it be comission of serious sin without personal knowledge that it is prohibited?

The Latin bishops are obligated to help the eastern faithful in their care, it is written in the canons. If you have questions write a letter to the bishop (or call), but it may take a month to get an answer. You can call the Chancery also to get questions answered, if they do not have the answer, they can research it.

Eastern Liturgical Norms

byzcath.org/faith/documents/instruction.htm

Vico, thanks for that information… I’ll speak to an Eastern priest hopefully today and make sure I’m also waiting for a reply from a Latin rite priest. Hopefully speaking to them will clear this up for me.

I guess the only question really then is - is it defined anywhere that communicatio in sacris means sharing in the Sacraments? The reason I’m asking is because I read an article about it by a Roman Catholic priest and he said that it could also be sharing in common worship, and in the old canon law it talks about it not being lawful to share in worship. It’s like there are two definitions of it.

 

[Monica4316]

Orthodox do not ‘reject the Pope’. Lutherans reject the Pope because they once were under his authority, Anglicans likewise. They accepted bishops from him, and their archbishops accepted the pallium from him.

Orthodox never had a ‘Pope’, ever. There was and is (even today), nothing to reject. Orthodox always have had their own Metropolitans and Synods, their own Apostolic Sees and ancient Patriarchates, they never needed an other one.

Orthodox do not reject the Pope of Rome any more than they reject the Coptic Pope of Alexandria, both separated from and rejected Holy Orthodoxy by their own decisive acts, not the other way around. Both are more than welcome to return, we will kill the fatted calf for them!

Not that I expect anything like that to happen anytime soon.

I hope you find peace in your convictions. Peace and Harmony to you and may God bless you …

Hesychios, sorry what I said was inaccurate, I just meant in general how the Orthodox do not believe in the Papacy like the Catholics do.

Thanks, God bless

 

[Timothysis]

And how can it be comission of serious sin without personal knowledge that it is prohibited?

Bingo. The poster needs to stop trying to self-interpret every code of the Church from the past 400 years.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

the problem is what if different confessors would tell me different things then I’ll never know if I’m excommunicated or not…

This has bothered me since I read it.

First, why would you share this problem (sin) with more than one confessor? Once a sin is confessed you have done your duty and at the absolution that sin is forgiven, you should not be recofessing the same sins over and over. You are not culpable if the priest does not get it right, that is his responsibility, not yours.

Second, there are no automatic excommunications in the Eastern Code so you would know if you are excommunicated as you would be told, excommunications are a penalty and not done to a person in secret.

Third, even in the Western Church, if you are ignorant of the gravity of the sin and that there is an attached automatic excommunication, I am not sure that the excommunication would apply.

Vico, thanks for that information… I’ll speak to an Eastern priest hopefully today and make sure I’m also waiting for a reply from a Latin rite priest. Hopefully speaking to them will clear this up for me.

This is a good idea but be prepared as priests are not trained all that much in Canon Law, so you might not get any answer or you could even get an erroneous one through no fault of the priest.

There seems to be a deeper issue going on here. Monica, do you have a spiritual director? If not, you need to get one. These sorts of issues would be best worked out with one rather than through an anonymous internet forum.