If an eastern Catholic is excommunicated

  • Thread starter Thread starter Monica4316
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
This has bothered me since I read it.

First, why would you share this problem (sin) with more than one confessor? Once a sin is confessed you have done your duty and at the absolution that sin is forgiven, you should not be recofessing the same sins over and over. You are not culpable if the priest does not get it right, that is his responsibility, not yours.

Second, there are no automatic excommunications in the Eastern Code so you would know if you are excommunicated as you would be told, excommunications are a penalty and not done to a person in secret.
I don’t mean reconfessing the sin, I just wanted to ask both an Eastern and a Latin rite priest to see the understanding of canon law on this. But I remember when I was trying to determine if I’m Eastern or Latin Catholic, - I did get different answers everywhere. That is why I was concerned that this would happen again. It’s just that my situation is not very common so maybe it’s not as straightforward, unfortunately.
Third, even in the Western Church, if you are ignorant of the gravity of the sin and that there is an attached automatic excommunication, I am not sure that the excommunication would apply.
I see…
This is a good idea but be prepared as priests are not trained all that much in Canon Law, so you might not get any answer or you could even get an erroneous one through no fault of the priest.
that is sort of what I meant… well the Latin rite priest I’m meaning to ask is one who is pretty knowledgeable with Canon law. And I hope the Eastern one would be as well.
There seems to be a deeper issue going on here. Monica, do you have a spiritual director? If not, you need to get one. These sorts of issues would be best worked out with one rather than through an anonymous internet forum.
I did have one, and then I moved cities.
 
I visited an Eastern Catholic church today, however I didn’t get a chance to talk to the priest. I’ll try just contacting him during the week about this. 🙂
 
Vico, thanks for that information… I’ll speak to an Eastern priest hopefully today and make sure 🙂 I’m also waiting for a reply from a Latin rite priest. Hopefully speaking to them will clear this up for me.

I guess the only question really then is - is it defined anywhere that communicatio in sacris means sharing in the Sacraments? The reason I’m asking is because I read an article about it by a Roman Catholic priest and he said that it could also be sharing in common worship, and in the old canon law it talks about it not being lawful to share in worship. It’s like there are two definitions of it. :confused:
The topic of communicatio in sacris is confusing because participation and sacraments are interrelated. The Holy Eucharist is the focus of the Mass or Divine Liturgy. So ecumenical participation is not to compete with the usual Sunday and Holy Day celebration, so you can receive the Holy Mysteries and not express indifference which would lead some to think that non-Catholic Churches may have the fullness of the faith.

This exerpt shows how the norms are applied.

http://www.vatican.va/img/vuoto.gifPontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People

***People on the Move ***
N° 105 (Suppl.), December 2007

Ecumenical cooperation and communicatio in sacris


“From the standpoint of the norms regarding *communicatio in sacris *it seems clear that the guidelines contained in the Ecumenical Directory have reached the limits of the what is permitted by theology. Bishops and priests should be familiar with the norms of the *Ecumenical Directory. *The analysis of local situations is the task of the diocesan bishop (and of the Bishops’ Conference) for their respective territories, whereas the discernment of individual personal cases is the task of the ministers who celebrate the sacraments, on the basis of the pastoral instructions of the local bishop.”

You see the Vatican II instruction expressed in (1964) Unitatis Redintegratio

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
  1. Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.(32) On the other hand, pastoral experience shows clearly that, as regards our Eastern brethren, there should be taken into consideration the different cases of individuals, where neither the unity of the Church is hurt nor are verified the dangers that must be avoided, but where the needs of the salvation of souls and their spiritual good are impelling motives. For that reason the Catholic Church has always adopted and now adopts rather a mild policy, offering to all the means of salvation and an example of charity among Christians, through participation in the sacraments and in other sacred functions and things. With this in mind, “lest because of the harshness of our judgment we be an obstacle to those seeking salvation” (31) and in order more and more to promote union with the Eastern Churches separated from us, the Sacred Council lays down the following policy.
  2. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)
  3. Further, given the same principles, common participation by Catholics with their Eastern separated brethren in sacred functions, things and places is allowed for a just cause.(34)
  4. This conciliatory policy with regard to “communicatio in sacris” (participation in things sacred) with the brethren of the separated Eastern Churches is put into the care and control of the local hierarchs, in order that, by combined counsel among themselves and, if need be, after consultation also with the hierarchs of the separated churches, they may by timely and effective regulations and norms direct the relations among Christians.
 
The topic of communicatio in sacris is confusing because participation and sacraments are interrelated. The Holy Eucharist is the focus of the Mass or Divine Liturgy. So ecumenical participation is not to compete with the usual Sunday and Holy Day celebration, so you can receive the Holy Mysteries and not express indifference which would lead some to think that non-Catholic Churches may have the fullness of the faith.

This exerpt shows how the norms are applied.

http://www.vatican.va/img/vuoto.gifPontifical Council for the Pastoral Care of Migrants and Itinerant People

***People on the Move ***
N° 105 (Suppl.), December 2007

Ecumenical cooperation and communicatio in sacris


“From the standpoint of the norms regarding *communicatio in sacris *it seems clear that the guidelines contained in the Ecumenical Directory have reached the limits of the what is permitted by theology. Bishops and priests should be familiar with the norms of the *Ecumenical Directory. *The analysis of local situations is the task of the diocesan bishop (and of the Bishops’ Conference) for their respective territories, whereas the discernment of individual personal cases is the task of the ministers who celebrate the sacraments, on the basis of the pastoral instructions of the local bishop.”

You see the Vatican II instruction expressed in (1964) Unitatis Redintegratio

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
  1. Common participation in worship (communicatio in sacris) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law.(32) On the other hand, pastoral experience shows clearly that, as regards our Eastern brethren, there should be taken into consideration the different cases of individuals, where neither the unity of the Church is hurt nor are verified the dangers that must be avoided, but where the needs of the salvation of souls and their spiritual good are impelling motives. For that reason the Catholic Church has always adopted and now adopts rather a mild policy, offering to all the means of salvation and an example of charity among Christians, through participation in the sacraments and in other sacred functions and things. With this in mind, “lest because of the harshness of our judgment we be an obstacle to those seeking salvation” (31) and in order more and more to promote union with the Eastern Churches separated from us, the Sacred Council lays down the following policy.
  2. Without prejudice to the principles noted earlier, Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible.(33)
  3. Further, given the same principles, common participation by Catholics with their Eastern separated brethren in sacred functions, things and places is allowed for a just cause.(34)
  4. This conciliatory policy with regard to “communicatio in sacris” (participation in things sacred) with the brethren of the separated Eastern Churches is put into the care and control of the local hierarchs, in order that, by combined counsel among themselves and, if need be, after consultation also with the hierarchs of the separated churches, they may by timely and effective regulations and norms direct the relations among Christians.
thanks for the reply… 🙂 I guess what complicates it a bit for me is that I participated in Orthodox worship out of doubt in the Papacy. I’ll ask a priest if this changes anything for me.

I guess I’m speaking from the Catholic perspective then, - I believe that only Catholics are visibly/fully part of the universal Church, and other Christians are more (Orthodox) or less (Protestant) united to it. I know the Orthodox see it the other way around, that the Catholics have left the universal Church. It all comes down to the Papacy…
 
thanks for the reply… 🙂 I guess what complicates it a bit for me is that I participated in Orthodox worship out of doubt in the Papacy. I’ll ask a priest if this changes anything for me.

I guess I’m speaking from the Catholic perspective then, - I believe that only Catholics are visibly/fully part of the universal Church, and other Christians are more (Orthodox) or less (Protestant) united to it. I know the Orthodox see it the other way around, that the Catholics have left the universal Church. It all comes down to the Papacy…
Good idea. I suspect they are independent issues. When a matter such as schism or heresy is not formal or publicly known it makes a big difference.

**CCC 2089 **

*Incredulity *is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it.

"*Heresy *is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; *apostasy *is the total repudiation of the Christian faith;

*schism *is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
 
I guess I’m speaking from the Catholic perspective then, - I believe that only Catholics are visibly/fully part of the universal Church, and other Christians are more (Orthodox) or less (Protestant) united to it. I know the Orthodox see it the other way around, that the Catholics have left the universal Church. It all comes down to the Papacy…
There are some Catholics and I am sure some Orthodox who hold a different view.

That view would be that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches have left the one Church. That the one Church is both of these united. That both Catholics and Orthodox are materially in schism.
 
There are some Catholics and I am sure some Orthodox who hold a different view.

That view would be that both the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Churches have left the one Church. That the one Church is both of these united. That both Catholics and Orthodox are materially in schism.
Well said Br. David! I totally agree with this view…we are ALL in schism until we once again have a united church! Something we are all called to work for.
 
I just read this at EWTN and remembered this thread.
Eastern Catholic Defection
Question from Anonymous on 3/15/2011:
Hi,
I would like to know my status in the Roman Catholic Church. I had been a Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic, but I am planning to be baptized in the Orthodox Church. I am aware that a process for a Formal Act of Defection in the Latin Church is suspended, but Defection is still possible. I have communicated to my bishop, in writing, that I will no longer financially support my Ruthenian parish. I am aware that, to Roman Catholic claims, defection means the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is not that church I am hoping to leave but rather to join that Church.
Thank You.
Answer by Robert J. Flummerfelt, J.C.L. on 3/17/2011:
Glory to Jesus Christ! God is with us!
Hi Anonymous,
Please be aware that in Eastern law, whether Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, there is no such thing as defection by a formal act [or informal act]. So, the phrase once an Eastern Catholic always an Eastern Catholic is stil the norm according to canon law.
In answering you, please know that I do sincerely understand and appreciate your perspective and all that you wrote. But the Eastern Churches do not recognize any ability to defect. Of course, if a person is Eastern Catholic and becomes Eastern Orthodox, the Orthodox would welcome that because ecclesiologically, the Orthodox believe that the person is coming into full communion with the Orthodox Church so it is acceptable. Similarly, an Orthodox Christian seeking to become Eastern Catholic is also acceptable, because even though our Churches are very close theologically, albeit NOT full communion, an Eastern Catholic Church would welcome an Orthodox Christian coming into full communion with the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, each Church would NEVER accept that either act is a valid defection from either Church.
I pray for the day that Our Lord’s prayer from John Chapter 17, verse 21, becomes a reality, that all of us may be one. Ut Unum Sint! It is such a scandal and so sad that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are not in full communion. With God’s guidance this too will come to pass.
Peace and blessings, Bob
 
Dear Monica,

Actually, you’ve initiated a very informative thread here!

I’ve personally been there and done that, as you’ve indicated yourself.

You only need to go to Confession re: your doubt about the papacy, even if you went to an Orthodox parish as a visible sign of that doubt. It could also have just been a “difficulty” and as Bl John Henry Newman said, “A thousand difficulties do not equal a single doubt!”

Just confess it and then don’t worry about it. I’ve done so as well and when the priest asked me why I had a doubt . . . I told him, “Do you really want me to tell you, Father?” He then quickly said, “Another time, perhaps . . .”

More about church politics than anything else . . . You can ask Steveb about it, if you like . . . 😉

I normally try not to go to Orthodox parishes since I’m chatty (yes, it’s true . . .) and get into conversations with people who then exhibit some “enthusiasm” for my becoming Orthodox . . . It happened to me in the ROCOR parish in Williamsville last . . . 😉

And I just don’t like upsetting people . . . if I don’t have to . . .

Confession is good for the soul and for the nerves too!

Alex
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top