If angel's enact the will of God, how did Lucifer fall?

[FaithBuild18]

I was taught in philosophy 101 that only humans have free will, and that’s what makes us unique. Angels do not have free will, they simply enact the will of God.

But this confuses me, because of the story of Lucifer rebelling against God. How did Lucifer rebel against God if he didn’t have free will?

 

[Stumblesalot]

Hi,

Angels do have free will. Before God allowed them to see His Face, however, He did test their love for Him. Lucifer, became arrogant and vane due to the power and intellect etc. graced to him by God and refused to serve God. He corrupted about a third of the Angels and tried to rebel against God. Michael and his Angels , however, called obedience to God and fought Satan and his angels. During this battle, Satan and his angels were thrust out of heaven by Saint Michael and his Angels. My understanding is that once the Angels, or humans, are in the presence of God (i.e. we pass our tests) we can no longer fall.

God bless

 

[Kontrak]

tanbooks.com/doct/angels.htm

The angels, like men, were given free will. They were able to choose to serve God or not. Unlike men, they cannot vacillate back and forth, but rather see everything to its logical conclusion. If they were to turn against God, it would be a permanent state. Therefore when many of the angels decided to follow Lucifer, the highest of the angels, in his rebellion against God (“I will not serve”), they were cast into Hell. They would not ever repent, their wills being set on evil.

In short, there was more malice in their sin, because of the greater clarity of understanding. They are not confused, ignorant, and weak as humans are.

 

[Kontrak]

Hi,

Angels do have free will. Before God allowed them to see His Face, however, He did test their love for Him. Lucifer, became arrogant and vane due to the power and intellect etc. graced to him by God and refused to serve God. He corrupted about a third of the Angels and tried to rebel against God. Michael and his Angels , however, called obedience to God and fought Satan and his angels. During this battle, Satan and his angels were thrust out of heaven by Saint Michael and his Angels. My understanding is that once the Angels, or humans, are in the presence of God (i.e. we pass our tests) we can no longer fall.

God bless

Yes. The ones in Heaven can not fall because they see the beatific vision and they earned it when they willed to be with God. There can be no love with out free will. Hope that’s not confusing, Faithbuild.

 

[meltzerboy]

I was taught in philosophy 101 that only humans have free will, and that’s what makes us unique. Angels do not have free will, they simply enact the will of God.

But this confuses me, because of the story of Lucifer rebelling against God. How did Lucifer rebel against God if he didn’t have free will?

If your philosophy instructor was referring to Judaism, s/he is correct: angels have no free will. This is one of the things that place humans above angels. Another is the specific assignment given to angels, depending on their type. According to Maimonides, there are ten types of angels. Thus angels are bound to love and be devoted to G-d in only one specific manner, whereas humans can choose to show their love and devotion to G-d in a variety of ways, as well as choose to sin against G-d and His creation. It derives from this that Judaism does not believe Lucifer rebelled against G-d, but instead serves G-d.

 

[michaelmas]

Hi,

Angels do have free will. Before God allowed them to see His Face, however, He did test their love for Him. Lucifer, became arrogant and vane due to the power and intellect etc. graced to him by God and refused to serve God. He corrupted about a third of the Angels and tried to rebel against God. Michael and his Angels , however, called obedience to God and fought Satan and his angels. During this battle, Satan and his angels were thrust out of heaven by Saint Michael and his Angels. My understanding is that once the Angels, or humans, are in the presence of God (i.e. we pass our tests) we can no longer fall.

God bless

I have read this before and would like to hijack this thread for a minute. Why didn’t God just snap his fingers and be done with it? Why did Michael have to fight? God could of done the fighting by snapping his fingers.

 

[Nicea325]

I was taught in philosophy 101 that only humans have free will, and that’s what makes us unique. Angels do not have free will, they simply enact the will of God.

But this confuses me, because of the story of Lucifer rebelling against God. How did Lucifer rebel against God if he didn’t have free will?

Oh yes Lucifer had free-will. God did not make angels and humans programmed robots.

 

[grandfather]

Hi,

Angels do have free will. Before God allowed them to see His Face, however, He did test their love for Him. Lucifer, became arrogant and vane due to the power and intellect etc. graced to him by God and refused to serve God. He corrupted about a third of the Angels and tried to rebel against God. Michael and his Angels , however, called obedience to God and fought Satan and his angels. During this battle, Satan and his angels were thrust out of heaven by Saint Michael and his Angels. My understanding is that once the Angels, or humans, are in the presence of God (i.e. we pass our tests) we can no longer fall.

God bless

Somehow there has to be some allegory in this story. It is our explanation of the origin of evil. The problem with it is time.

In order for there to be change there must be time, a before and after. The essence of the storyline above is, this happened, then that happened, then there was a conflict then this was the outcome. There are befores and afters, time.

The problem is that spiritual beings, angels and God, exist outside time and space. There is no before and after. Space implies a here and a there and distance. Time and space are the dimension we live and die in. We come into bodily existance in the physical universe and leave it.

For anything or any situation to change there has to be time. I am not saying I don’t believe the story, but that it has to be allegorical, so that it is understandable to us who only know what we experience in time and can not know what no time (eternity) is like.

Jesus uses analogies to teach, because we can only understand what we have experienced. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a housewife who lost a coin and swept ther house searching for it, a farmer who sowed seeds and the enemy came at night and sowed weeds, fishermen who brought in a big catch in their nets and threw away the fish that were no good, etc.

The conflict in heaven between good and evil is beyond our imaginations and how it could take place outside time is confounding. In order for there to be an outcome there is change. In order for there to be change there is time. There are things we just can’t understand.

 

[midori]

I have read this before and would like to hijack this thread for a minute. Why didn’t God just snap his fingers and be done with it? Why did Michael have to fight? God could of done the fighting by snapping his fingers.

V. 1 Ch. 9 of “City of God” has some thought-provoking bits about Rev 12. One thing that’s always stuck with me was when it says that the angels fought with understanding and the will, zeal and humility. If you think about it, our own spiritual warfare isn’t waged with swords or weapons or the material; it’s waged by conforming our own wills to that of God.

By allowing the angels their free will, he allows them to be freely obedient-- and to have the graces and rewards and honor that come from that choice.

 

[Irishgal49]

tanbooks.com/doct/angels.htm

The angels, like men, were given free will. They were able to choose to serve God or not. Unlike men, they cannot vacillate back and forth, but rather see everything to its logical conclusion. If they were to turn against God, it would be a permanent state. Therefore when many of the angels decided to follow Lucifer, the highest of the angels, in his rebellion against God (“I will not serve”), they were cast into Hell. They would not ever repent, their wills being set on evil.

In short, there was more malice in their sin, because of the greater clarity of understanding. They are not confused, ignorant, and weak as humans are.

Thank you for this answer. I have wondered why Satan couldn’t be “converted”, I know, I know…but I always wondered what he did that would make his separation so final. I understand much more with this answer…thanks.

 

[Katholish]

Somehow there has to be some allegory in this story. It is our explanation of the origin of evil. The problem with it is time.

In order for there to be change there must be time, a before and after. The essence of the storyline above is, this happened, then that happened, then there was a conflict then this was the outcome. There are befores and afters, time.

The problem is that spiritual beings, angels and God, exist outside time and space. There is no before and after. Space implies a here and a there and distance. Time and space are the dimension we live and die in. We come into bodily existance in the physical universe and leave it.

For anything or any situation to change there has to be time. I am not saying I don’t believe the story, but that it has to be allegorical, so that it is understandable to us who only know what we experience in time and can not know what no time (eternity) is like.

Jesus uses analogies to teach, because we can only understand what we have experienced. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a housewife who lost a coin and swept ther house searching for it, a farmer who sowed seeds and the enemy came at night and sowed weeds, fishermen who brought in a big catch in their nets and threw away the fish that were no good, etc.

The conflict in heaven between good and evil is beyond our imaginations and how it could take place outside time is confounding. In order for there to be an outcome there is change. In order for there to be change there is time. There are things we just can’t understand.

God exists outside of time, but He is the only eternal being properly speaking. Any created being, including the angels, experience change and hence time in some form. There is before and after with the angels, especially in referrence to their fall.

I think need not be material to experience change and time. There can be immaterial changes, e.g. changes in the intellect or will, which angels are capable of–and subject to.

 

[Robertanthony]

tanbooks.com/doct/angels.htm

The angels, like men, were given free will. They were able to choose to serve God or not. Unlike men, they cannot vacillate back and forth, but rather see everything to its logical conclusion. If they were to turn against God, it would be a permanent state. Therefore when many of the angels decided to follow Lucifer, the highest of the angels, in his rebellion against God (“I will not serve”), they were cast into Hell. They would not ever repent, their wills being set on evil.

In short, there was more malice in their sin, because of the greater clarity of understanding. They are not confused, ignorant, and weak as humans are.

I have a history of derailing threads and I hope this isn’t the case.

1-If the fallen angels had known what the outcome of their rebellion would be (God being victorious and them being condemned to Hell), they wouldn’ thave done it, right? I understand their intellect is superior to ours but they’re not prescient either, are they not? The idea of being above God must have been quite an incentive.

2-If the fallen angels can do nothing but hate and plot evil things and thrive on chaos, confusion etc. why has Satan been the uncontested ruler since the Fall, does he essentially rule by fear or rebellion is not a possibility?

 

[Rhubarb]

A philosophy teacher shouldn’t have taught you that humans have free will.

A philosophy teacher should have taught you about the ideas regarding free will and determinism, and the arguments for and against and which philosophers in the past believed what.

 

[Stumblesalot]

I have read this before and would like to hijack this thread for a minute. Why didn’t God just snap his fingers and be done with it? Why did Michael have to fight? God could of done the fighting by snapping his fingers.

I assume, for the same reason we are required to fight evil in this world prior to seeing the Face of God?!

God bless

 

[Stumblesalot]

Somehow there has to be some allegory in this story. It is our explanation of the origin of evil. The problem with it is time.

In order for there to be change there must be time, a before and after. The essence of the storyline above is, this happened, then that happened, then there was a conflict then this was the outcome. There are befores and afters, time.

Hi,

The true answer is that I do not know. However, I could propose a theory. We know angels are able to frequent the time-space dimension when God wills it (i.e. guardian angels etc.). Therefore, it may not be inconceivable that the angels were tested by God, as are humans, in the space-time dimension prior to being allowed to see Gods’ Face.

God bless

The problem is that spiritual beings, angels and God, exist outside time and space. There is no before and after. Space implies a here and a there and distance. Time and space are the dimension we live and die in. We come into bodily existance in the physical universe and leave it.

For anything or any situation to change there has to be time. I am not saying I don’t believe the story, but that it has to be allegorical, so that it is understandable to us who only know what we experience in time and can not know what no time (eternity) is like.

Jesus uses analogies to teach, because we can only understand what we have experienced. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a housewife who lost a coin and swept ther house searching for it, a farmer who sowed seeds and the enemy came at night and sowed weeds, fishermen who brought in a big catch in their nets and threw away the fish that were no good, etc.

The conflict in heaven between good and evil is beyond our imaginations and how it could take place outside time is confounding. In order for there to be an outcome there is change. In order for there to be change there is time. There are things we just can’t understand.

 

[Stumblesalot]

Somehow there has to be some allegory in this story. It is our explanation of the origin of evil. The problem with it is time.

In order for there to be change there must be time, a before and after. The essence of the storyline above is, this happened, then that happened, then there was a conflict then this was the outcome. There are befores and afters, time.

The problem is that spiritual beings, angels and God, exist outside time and space. There is no before and after. Space implies a here and a there and distance. Time and space are the dimension we live and die in. We come into bodily existance in the physical universe and leave it.

For anything or any situation to change there has to be time. I am not saying I don’t believe the story, but that it has to be allegorical, so that it is understandable to us who only know what we experience in time and can not know what no time (eternity) is like.

Jesus uses analogies to teach, because we can only understand what we have experienced. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a housewife who lost a coin and swept ther house searching for it, a farmer who sowed seeds and the enemy came at night and sowed weeds, fishermen who brought in a big catch in their nets and threw away the fish that were no good, etc.

The conflict in heaven between good and evil is beyond our imaginations and how it could take place outside time is confounding. In order for there to be an outcome there is change. In order for there to be change there is time. There are things we just can’t understand.

Sorry, got that first one wrong ha ha

Hi,

The true answer is that I do not know. However, I could propose a theory. We know angels are able to frequent the time-space dimension when God wills it (i.e. guardian angels etc.). Therefore, it may not be inconceivable that the angels were tested by God, as are humans, in the space-time dimension prior to being allowed to see Gods’ Face.

God bless