"If any one comes to me without hating his father and and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters..."???

[Jimmy_B]

What does this mean?

Luke 14:26,27

""If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."**

**What does this mean? Does this mean that we can ignore or violate the Forth Commandment, to - "Honor your father and your mother…? **

****I don’t think so. I believe that this verse is interpreted differently in Protestant circle than it is in Catholicism. Am I wrong? ****

What does this verse mean to you?

The below footnote (#7), was taken from the on-line, Catholic, NAB Bible. This is what I believe it means…What do you think? Does this create a problem for some non-Catholic Christians, when it comes to loving Mary the Mother of God?

7 [26] Hating his father . . . : cf the similar saying in Matthew 10:37. The disciple’s family must take second place to the absolute dedication involved in following Jesus
(see also Luke 9:59-62).

Matthew 10:37-38
37 "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up his cross 15 and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:58-6258 Jesus answered him, “Foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest his head.” 59 And to another he said, “Follow me.” But he replied, “(Lord,) let me go first and bury my father.” 60 But he answeed him, “Let the dead bury their dead. 28 But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 And another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but first let me say farewell to my family at home.” 62 (To him) Jesus said, “No one who sets a hand to the plow and looks to what was left behind is fit for the kingdom of God.”

I would like to see the Catholic and non-Catholic response to this question.

Thank you!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

ARTICLE 4THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.4

He was obedient to them.5

The Lord Jesus himself recalled the force of this "commandment of God."6 The Apostle teaches: “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ‘Honor your father and mother,’ (This is the first commandment with a promise.) 'that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.”'7

2197 The fourth commandment opens the second table of the Decalogue. It shows us the order of charity. God has willed that, after him, we should honor our parents to whom we owe life and who have handed on to us the knowledge of God. We are obliged to honor and respect all those whom God, for our good, has vested with his authority.

2198 This commandment is expressed in positive terms of duties to be fulfilled. It introduces the subsequent commandments which are concerned with particular respect for life, marriage, earthly goods, and speech. It constitutes one of the foundations of the social doctrine of the Church.

2199 The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.
This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

 

[JonNC]

Catechism of the Catholic Church

ARTICLE 4
THE FOURTH COMMANDMENT

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you.4

He was obedient to them.5

The Lord Jesus himself recalled the force of this "commandment of God."6 The Apostle teaches: “Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. ‘Honor your father and mother,’ (This is the first commandment with a promise.) 'that it may be well with you and that you may live long on the earth.”'7

2197 The fourth commandment opens the second table of the Decalogue. It shows us the order of charity. God has willed that, after him, we should honor our parents to whom we owe life and who have handed on to us the knowledge of God. We are obliged to honor and respect all those whom God, for our good, has vested with his authority.

2198 This commandment is expressed in positive terms of duties to be fulfilled. It introduces the subsequent commandments which are concerned with particular respect for life, marriage, earthly goods, and speech. It constitutes one of the foundations of the social doctrine of the Church.

2199 The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.
This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

Jimmy,
I have missed any communications rgarding the status of your health. I pray you are doing well.

Luther provides 2 discussions of the 4th Commandment, briefly in the Small Catechism, and more deeply in the Large Catechism. Essentially, the Lutheran view is primarily the same as the Catholic.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say it is interpreted differently by non-Catholics. Maybe you could elaborate. Nothing Christ did or said relieves Christians of the duty to follow His commands, and His commandments.

Jon

Jon

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy,
I have missed any communications rgarding the status of your health. I pray you are doing well.

Luther provides 2 discussions of the 4th Commandment, briefly in the Small Catechism, and more deeply in the Large Catechism. Essentially, the Lutheran view is primarily the same as the Catholic.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say it is interpreted differently by non-Catholics. Maybe you could elaborate. Nothing Christ did or said relieves Christians of the duty to follow His commands, and His commandments.

Jon

Jon

Thank you for your concern Jon… I sent you a PM.

Now, regarding this thread… I recently read a post from a non-Catholic Christian poster here, where he attempted to use the verse cited, to undermine Catholic beliefs regarding Saint Mary. I couldn’t reply to him on that thread, because it was closed.

This isn’t the first time that I have read, or heard something like this. This verse is often used by non-Catholic Christians, usually in my experience, “Born-again” and Evangelical Christians, to try to undermine Catholicism and to try to minimize Mary and her role in Christianity.

Maybe someone else here, has had the same experience.

Thank you for your post.

 

[Padrej]

What does this mean?

Luke 14:26,27

""If any one comes to me without hating his father 7 and* and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple."*

What does this mean? Does this mean that we can ignore or violate the Forth Commandment, to - "Honor your father and your mother…?

****I don’t think so. I believe that this verse is interpreted differently in Protestant circle than it is in Catholicism. Am I wrong? ****

What does this verse mean to you?

The below footnote (#7), was taken from the on-line, Catholic, NAB Bible. This is what I believe it means…What do you think? Does this create a problem for some non-Catholic Christians, when it comes to loving Mary the Mother of God?

7 [26] Hating his father . . . : cf the similar saying in Matthew 10:37. The disciple’s family must take second place to the absolute dedication involved in following Jesus
(see also Luke 9:59-62).

Matthew 10:37-38
37 "Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and whoever does not take up his cross 15 and follow after me is not worthy of me.

Luke 9:58-6258 Jesus answered him, “Foxes have dens and birds of the sky have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to rest his head.” 59 And to another he said, “Follow me.” But he replied, “(Lord,) let me go first and bury my father.” 60 But he answeed him, “Let the dead bury their dead. 28 But you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.” 61 And another said, “I will follow you, Lord, but first let me say farewell to my family at home.” 62 (To him) Jesus said, “No one who sets a hand to the plow and looks to what was left behind is fit for the kingdom of God.”

I would like to see the Catholic and non-Catholic response to this question.

Thank you!

Jimmy B
I have always viewed the word here as not “hate” the way we think of it today when we hear that word. Jesus would not contradict the Word of God to honor parents. I like to look at it from the original Greek meaning that you put God fist and God comes before family. If you look at the surrounding verses the people that were being called by Jesus to follow him had excuses as to why not at this moment follow. What Jesus is literally saying is not to hate them as in a anger hat but be willing to lay all aside for service to God. Remember Jesus said the first and great commandment is to Love God with you heart soul mind and strength. I do not see parents there. the second was love neighbor as self. Here is where parents fall, God first and neighbor and family second.

Let me put it another way. If I listened to my family when I started in the ministry, I would not be still in it some 22 years later. If I listened to them I would think that I was not fit because of what they knew of how I was growing up. God does not look at ministers that way, He does not call the qualified He qualifies the called. To take it to personal level if every person in the church is “called out” (which is the literal meaning of the Greek word eklesia that gets translated “church”) we are also called to put God first above family.
By “honoring” our mother and father we take care of them in old age when they can no longer take care of themselves; just as they did for us when we were children. That would be the literal meaning of “honor” thy father and mother.

 

[Tocra]

That verse is spoken in relative terms.

What Jesus is saying is that you must love God so much more than you love your family, your life and everything else in this world, that relatively, they are actually ‘hated’.

.

 

[Padrej]

That verse is spoken in relative terms.

What Jesus is saying is that you must love God so much more than you love your family, your life and everything else in this world, that relatively, they are actually ‘hated’.

.

As Edward Everett was fascinated at being upstaged by Abraham Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address so am I with the eloquence of your brevity. Thank you.

 

[FrJohnB]

That verse is spoken in relative terms.

What Jesus is saying is that you must love God so much more than you love your family, your life and everything else in this world, that relatively, they are actually ‘hated’.

.

I would have to agree with you that you must love God more than anything else. I think you and Padrej have hit the nail on the head. At least this has always been my understanding of the verse as well.

From the Catechism:
*1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”

The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us. *

So it is essentially putting God first in everything.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I would have to agree with you that you must love God more than anything else. I think you and Padrej have hit the nail on the head. At least this has always been my understanding of the verse as well.

From the Catechism:
*1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.” *

*The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us. *

So it is essentially putting God first in everything.

“…putting God first in everything”

I agree and I believe that the key word here is, “everything”… Meaning that God comes first before everything else! He comes first, before the world, our possessions, ourselves and even our family.

So, to use this verse to argue against the Catholic Churches view of St. Mary, doesn’t make any sense and makes it apparent that those who hold this errant opinion, have taken this verse out of context and do not understand the real message contain within this verse.

Thank you for your post.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I find it interesting that since I have tied this discussion, to the Fourth Commandment, that those who on other threads regarding Mary, who previously, were seemly eager to toss out this verse to go after Mary, have not defended their position here… Wasn’t the Fourth Commandment taken into consideration?

I believe that when we view Mary’s relationship to her son and our Lord, Jesus Christ that that relationship cannot be taken out of the context of the Fourth Commandment… Christ was fully divine, while at the same time, fully human. This is an important Christian belief.

Christ was St. Mary’s Lord, while at the same time, He was her son… As His mother, she carried Him, bore Him, raised Him, protected Him, encouraged Him and so on and when He started His ministry, she followed Him. She was His mother and His loyal disciple

Christ had only one Mother and it was St. Mary. Mary had a very unique relationship with Jesus and an important role in Christianity. I believe that the Forth Commandment, to obey your father and mother… and the fact that she was also a faithful and loyal disciple, should always be considered when viewing this relationship.

Catholics and some Protestants understand this relationship and Mary’s role.

Your thoughts?

 

[Padrej]

I find it interesting that since I have tied this discussion, to the Fourth Commandment, that those who on other threads regarding Mary, who previously, were seemly eager to toss out this verse to go after Mary, have not defended their position here… Wasn’t the Fourth Commandment taken into consideration?

I believe that when we view Mary’s relationship to her son and our Lord, Jesus Christ that that relationship cannot be taken out of the context of the Fourth Commandment… Christ was fully divine, while at the same time, fully human. This is an important Christian belief.

Christ was St. Mary’s Lord, while at the same time, He was her son… As His mother, she carried Him, bore Him, raised Him, protected Him, encouraged Him and so on and when He started His ministry, she followed Him. She was His mother and His loyal disciple

Christ had only one Mother and it was St. Mary. Mary had a very unique relationship with Jesus and an important role in Christianity. I believe that the Forth Commandment, to obey your father and mother… and the fact that she was also a faithful and loyal disciple, should always be considered when viewing this relationship.

Catholics and some Protestants understand this relationship and Mary’s role.

Your thoughts?

I tend to look at Mary like I look at an Orthodox Icon of her, she always points to her son Jesus. The last recorded words of her appear in the Gospel of John when they are at the marriage feast and Jesus performs His first Miracle. She says, “Do as he tells you.” Certainly what I would call honoring God and doing what he said. This is I would say in a literal way putting God first as well.

 

[prodigalson12]

I would have to agree with you that you must love God more than anything else. I think you and Padrej have hit the nail on the head. At least this has always been my understanding of the verse as well.

From the Catechism:
*1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between “the two ways” and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, “Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.”

The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the “new commandment” of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us. *

So it is essentially putting God first in everything.

Amusing tactic you and your buddy are using now, if there is actually two of you and not just one person with two screen names, at this stage in the process, you are attempting to build up credibility, make sure you put into your signature that you are NOT a priest, else it’s going to cause calamity in the future, as it was in the past.

I do have to correct you on this matter regardless. The first commandment Jesus mentioned is more relevant to the topic. Love the Lord your God with all of your might, strength, soul and being. The second one is good, but not ahead or before the first.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Amusing tactic you and your buddy are using now, if there is actually two of you and not just one person with two screen names, at this stage in the process, you are attempting to build up credibility, make sure you put into your signature that you are NOT a priest, else it’s going to cause calamity in the future, as it was in the past.

I do have to correct you on this matter regardless. The first commandment Jesus mentioned is more relevant to the topic. Love the Lord your God with all of your might, strength, soul and being. The second one is good, but not ahead or before the first.

*** The first commandment Jesus mentioned is more relevant to the topic. Love the Lord your God with all of your might, strength, soul and being.***

 

[Padrej]

“…putting God first in everything”

I agree and I believe that the key word here is, “everything”… Meaning that God comes first before everything else! He comes first, before the world, our possessions, ourselves and even our family.

So, to use this verse to argue against the Catholic Churches view of St. Mary, doesn’t make any sense and makes it apparent that those who hold this errant opinion, have taken this verse out of context and do not understand the real message contain within this verse.

Thank you for your post.

I want to respond to the highlighted portion. I do not feel that Jesus would have hated Mary in any way because the Bible also says that he was “subject to them” meaning his parents. I know that there are some protestants who also like to tie this in with the miracle of turning water to wine where Jesus addresses Mary as “Woman, what has that to do with me, my hour has not yet come” as saying we should not venerate Mary. I do not hold this opinion as I have studied the verses in question in the original Greek and see them to be complimentary to Mary. I think we are in agreement that these verses ARE taken out of context when saying anything other than God has to come first.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary was the first lay evangelist.

It was Mary who inspired Jesus to begin His ministry before His time. She continues to intercede for us and our salvation. You cannot separate the work of Mary from Jesus for Jesus.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Mary was the first lay evangelist.

It was Mary who inspired Jesus to begin His ministry before His time. She continues to intercede for us and our salvation. You cannot separate the work of Mary from Jesus for Jesus.

I agree and I also think that one would be pretty hard pressed to find, biblically, historically or traditionally, a more loyal disciple of Christ. From her first appearance in the Gospels, to her last, she was a perfect example of how to follow Christ.

“… May it be done to me according to your word.” (Luke 1:38)

I am reminded of the verse that states,"… whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother." (Mark 3:35). She certainly did the will of God. Context is everything and obviously Mary was the Mother of God and a great Christian disciple.

From the Annunciation to the Crucifixion of her Son, Mary can be seen as God’s ultimate validation of free will. The Virgin Mary’s obedience to the will of God as conveyed to her in the angel Gabriel’s message was no less voluntary in its affirmation than the disobedience of the virgin Eve had been in its negation… Mary, as the first human to kiss the face of God and the first to believe in Jesus as her Savior, took her place in Salvation History as the first Christian. She is also the one disciple of Jesus who didn’t flee or doubt when all the others fled and doubted, but who stayed and accepted to the very end the burden of being under the Cross.

(Here at Agape Bible Study)

 

[Jimmy_B]

I want to respond to the highlighted portion. I do not feel that Jesus would have hated Mary in any way because the Bible also says that he was “subject to them” meaning his parents. I know that there are some protestants who also like to tie this in with the miracle of turning water to wine where Jesus addresses Mary as “Woman, what has that to do with me, my hour has not yet come” as saying we should not venerate Mary. I do not hold this opinion as I have studied the verses in question in the original Greek and see them to be complimentary to Mary. I think we are in agreement that these verses ARE taken out of context when saying anything other than God has to come first.

Thank you for your post and I wish you well with your conversion.

 

[Padrej]

Mary was the first lay evangelist.

It was Mary who inspired Jesus to begin His ministry before His time. She continues to intercede for us and our salvation. You cannot separate the work of Mary from Jesus for Jesus.

I have always thought of Mary Magdalen as the first “lay evangelist” as she was the first to be told by Jesus “go and tell…” that the Christ has risen from the dead. I wonder how many of us ever thought if she had said NO that there would probably not the church as we know it.The rest of the men were hiding in disbelief and in fear.

I tend to hold Mary the Mother of Jesus in higher regard than I do Magdalen. Either way I also feel that the disciples left all for Christ and you might say that they “hated” family as they put following Christ as #1 priority.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mary was the first to proclaim Jesus when she was conceived by the Holy Spirit and prayed out loud the prayer that was a replica of Hannah’s from the Old Testament…‘My soul doth proclaim…’

The difference between the two is that Mary is more focused in how her soul magnifies the Lord, praises His transcendent love and mercy vs the spirit of power and greed and how it loses out in time, and God’s mercy comes to the humble and poor. She speaks of henceforth, all generations will call her blessed, holy is the Lord’s name, and recalls Abraham and his decendents and Israel forever. I am drawing on memory as I never memorized verbatum the Magnificat.

United with Mary, she magnifies the Lord in our intentions…she enhances our prayers…she has the power and grace to take our souls and put them back into order so we as sinners can face the Lord in confidence of His mercy.

 

[KathleenGee]

Another thing people who don’t know Mary personally, don’t realize that Mary has a sense of humor, but it is very subtle.

One night my old friend, a devotee of hers, left his town to travel next door to go to his customary night Adoration. There was snow on the ground, and the way was very hilly. He was afraid he might not make it.

So he prayed, 'Mother Mary, you know I always try to come late at night to pray and be with your Son. Please help me!" He was a Seattle driver.

Do you know anything about Seattle metro drivers in the snow?? I will leave it at that.

The very next moment, a snow truck came out of nowhere and went right in front of him. He followed the truck all the way up the hill and over to the chapel.

‘Thanks, Blessed Mother!’ and really had a laugh. Mr. ‘Scooby Doo’.