If Baptism IS essential for salvation...

[runandsew]

I agree that the function of baptism is definitely not to act as a symbol – for example, it does -not- exist to influence those who are watching it to do the same.

…However, we can see it, so it IS symbolic.

What?
I am not sure what you just wrote?

 

[Freebird]

Jesus says: "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. "

What do you think He was referring to when he say’s born of water?, Natural birth?
That would be equivalent to him saying that you have to be a human being to enter the kingdom - as opposed to being an animal or something else - which seems unnecessary. It seems more natural to read his words as meaning that you have to be “born of water” in some deeper sense.

In Ezikiel 36:25-26 which fortells baptism:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.

This passage expresses exactly what we Catholics believe takes place in baptism. We sprinkle water on the person and God gives that person a new heart. We don’t believe that the water has some inherent power to forgive, but that Christ’s presence in the water is what brings about the forgiveness. The water is a symbol, but it is also more than a symbol. Otherwise what Anaias said to Paul makes no sence, “be baptized and wash away your sins.”

If you read the Early Church Fathers they will tie John chapter 3 to baptism, so this would indicate to me that the early Christians believed Baptism to be more than a symbol.

I’m sorry if it came across that I was contradicting you. I was trying to make a point that the sequence in which Jesus explained baptism is significant (first, faith, then more serious action for God - baptism).

"…but that Christ’s presence in the water is what brings about the forgiveness. The water is a symbol, but it is also more than a symbol.

That’s what I was getting at when I said “Baptism is a symbol.” I apologize if it came across that it is exclusively a symbol, in which that is definitely not the case.

 

[runandsew]

Titus 3:5–7.
He saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit, whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior, so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Here Scripture shows us that baptism actually does something to us, it regenerates us.

John 3:5:
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

Here Protestants tend to separate the born of water “baptism” and born of Spirit “accepting Christ as Lord as Savior”, but to do so will take it out of context of the baptism of Jesus himself, where there is water and the spirit.
**
Acts 2:38**
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Here Peter show us that we must first come to repentance; then we are baptized—which brings about the forgiveness of sins—and then as a result of that forgiveness and therefore of baptism, comes the gift (grace) of the Holy Spirit. This verse makes sense only if it is understood as saying that baptism is more than a symbol. If baptism were just a symbol and an ordinance and not a sacrament, why would Peter bother to include it in his instruction?

1 Cor. 6:11
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Here Scripture shows us that it was their baptism that brought them, for the first time, a state of sanctification and justification. Baptism changed them internally, spiritually, just as it changes us.

 

[Pax]

I agree that the function of baptism is definitely not to act as a symbol – for example, it does -not- exist to influence those who are watching it to do the same.

…However, we can see it, so it IS symbolic.

There is an outward sign in baptism. Water is an expression of cleansing and is the outward sign. There is a spiritual action taking place in baptism. There is the removal of original sin, the remission of any actual sin, and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This spiritual action is part of baptism just as the water and the words of baptism are part of the sacrament. Water is a part of baptism and is its outward sign, but as such it does not make baptism symbolic.

 

[teachccd]

I agree that the function of baptism is definitely not to act as a symbol – for example, it does -not- exist to influence those who are watching it to do the same.

…However, we can see it, so it IS symbolic.

Freebird, I see in your profile that you identify yourself as a Catholic. I don’t doubt for a minute that you are, however, I would like to issue a word of caution. I have been teaching the pre-baptism classes at my Church for the last five years so I have read about as much as one can read on this Sacrament. Nowhere in Catholic teaching do we ever refer to this Sacrament as symbolic. The term Baptsim derives from the Greek word baptizein which means to plunge or immerse. This immersion is a symbol of the dying and rising with Christ, see Romans 6. While we do utilize the four main symbols of water, oil, candle and the white garment we never consider the sacrament itself symbolic. All of our seven sacraments actualize what they represent. For example in the Sacrament of Reconciliation the priest actualizes the presence of Christ in the confessional. This Sacrament is not a symbolic removal of sins it is actually Christ ( God) removing our sins. This can be said about any of our Sacraments.

So, Freebird, please be very careful as many Catholics may be swayed into the Protestant notion of baptism which in NO way resembles the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers or any of the Catholic Church to this day… God Bless

 

[Freebird]

Freebird, I see in your profile that you identify yourself as a Catholic. I don’t doubt for a minute that you are, however, I would like to issue a word of caution. I have been teaching the pre-baptism classes at my Church for the last five years so I have read about as much as one can read on this Sacrament. Nowhere in Catholic teaching do we ever refer to this Sacrament as symbolic. The term Baptsim derives from the Greek word baptizein which means to plunge or immerse. This immersion is a symbol of the dying and rising with Christ, see Romans 6. While we do utilize the four main symbols of water, oil, candle and the white garment we never consider the sacrament itself symbolic. All of our seven sacraments actualize what they represent. For example in the Sacrament of Reconciliation the priest actualizes the presence of Christ in the confessional. This Sacrament is not a symbolic removal of sins it is actually Christ ( God) removing our sins. This can be said about any of our Sacraments.

So, Freebird, please be very careful as many Catholics may be swayed into the Protestant notion of baptism which in NO way resembles the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers or any of the Catholic Church to this day… God Bless

i stand corrected.

thanks!

 

[De_Maria]

why wouldn’t The Lord Jesus Christ just say “baptism” instead of "Ye must be born again of water "?

Just wondering on views why he wouldn’t of just said so.

Because He said it in Mark 16:16.

Also, why wouldn’t some of the New Testament writers as well include “baptism” when confronted with what is required for salvation? (Rom 10:9 & Acts 2:21) as examples…

They did:
1 Peter 3:21
**The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also ****now **save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Romans 6:4
**Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as **Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 6:11
**And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are **sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[De_Maria]

Freebird, I see in your profile that you identify yourself as a Catholic. I don’t doubt for a minute that you are, however, I would like to issue a word of caution. I have been teaching the pre-baptism classes at my Church for the last five years so I have read about as much as one can read on this Sacrament. Nowhere in Catholic teaching do we ever refer to this Sacrament as symbolic. The term Baptsim derives from the Greek word baptizein which means to plunge or immerse. This immersion is a symbol of the dying and rising with Christ, see Romans 6.

We certainly do. You just confirmed that we do. But we add an adjective to the word, “symbol”. Efficacious.

While we do utilize the four main symbols of water, oil, candle and the white garment we never consider the sacrament itself symbolic. All of our seven sacraments actualize what they represent. For example in the Sacrament of Reconciliation the priest actualizes the presence of Christ in the confessional. This Sacrament is not a symbolic removal of sins it is actually Christ ( God) removing our sins. This can be said about any of our Sacraments.

So, Freebird, please be very careful as many Catholics may be swayed into the Protestant notion of baptism which in NO way resembles the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers or any of the Catholic Church to this day… God Bless

With all due respect teachccd, our Great Pope says, “fear is useless”. So let us not fear what has not yet happened.

The fact is that withholding the facts from Catholics makes them easy prey for Protestants who are out their seeking them out and ready to say, “you see, your church lied to you.” Protestants can read too.

And our own Catechism says:
694 Water. The symbolism of water signifies the Holy Spirit’s action in Baptism, since after the invocation of the Holy Spirit it becomes the efficacious sacramental ** sign of new birth**: just as the gestation of our first birth took place in water, so the water of Baptism truly signifies that our birth into the divine life is given to us in the Holy Spirit. As “by one Spirit we were all baptized,” so we are also “made to drink of one Spirit.” Thus the Spirit is also personally the living water welling up from Christ crucified as its source and welling up in us to eternal life.

Therefore, I recommend the opposite of what you recommend. I recommend that we not shy away from the fact that the Church teaches that the pouring of water in Baptism is an EFFICACIOUS symbol of the action of the Holy Spirit in our soul.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Jesus says: "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. "

Lets look at the whole context of the statement. Forgive me for using the KJV, I happen to have it opened. But the wording is not significantly different than our own. First He says:
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, **Except a man be born again, **he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

then He says:

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

And then He explains what He meant:
**6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. **
** 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. **

What do you think He was referring to when he say’s born of water?, Natural birth?

Precisely!
First we are born naturally of flesh. All who are born of flesh are born of water. Have you ever heard of breaking her water? That is natural birth.

But to enter heaven we must be born again of Spirit. That is the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

That would be equivalent to him saying that you have to be a human being to enter the kingdom - as opposed to being an animal or something else - which seems unnecessary. It seems more natural to read his words as meaning that you have to be “born of water” in some deeper sense.

In Ezikiel 36:25-26 which fortells baptism:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts.

This is a prophecy of what is to come. A prophecy that Jesus will implement the Sacrament of Baptism. But it does not disprove that Jesus meant that one must be born again from above.

This passage expresses exactly what we Catholics believe takes place in baptism. We sprinkle water on the person and God gives that person a new heart. We don’t believe that the water has some inherent power to forgive, but that Christ’s presence in the water is what brings about the forgiveness. The water is a symbol, but it is also more than a symbol. Otherwise what Anaias said to Paul makes no sence, “be baptized and wash away your sins.”

If you read the Early Church Fathers they will tie John chapter 3 to baptism, so this would indicate to me that the early Christians believed Baptism to be more than a symbol.

It is an EFFICACIOUS symbol. The pouring of water symbolizes the action of the Spirit. But the Church mentions two other Baptisms, those of desire and blood. The single common denominator in all three is the action of the Spirit upon the soul. Because we don’t have to pour water on the deceased for them to be cleansed of their sin if they have died desiring Baptism.

Therefore Scripture says that there is ONE BAPTISM:
Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[mrmagoo661]

Precisely!
First we are born naturally of flesh. All who are born of flesh are born of water. Have you ever heard of breaking her water? That is natural birth.
De Maria

A quote from Mr. Tim Staples.

"Moreover, John 3:5 is not describing two events; it describes one event. The text does not say "unless one is born of water and then born again of the Spirit . . . " It says “unless one is born of water and Spirit . . .” If we hearken back to the Lord’s own baptism in John 1 and Matthew 3, we notice that when our Lord was baptized, the Holy Spirit descended simultaneously upon him. This was one event, involving both water and the Spirit. And so it is with our baptism. If we obey God in being baptized—that’s our part of the deal—we can count on God to “open the heavens” for us concurrently and give us the Holy Spirit. "

"And finally, it would be anachronistic to read into Jesus’ use of “water” to mean physical birth in John’s Gospel. In fact, John had just used a word to refer to physical birth in John 1:12–13, but it wasn’t “water:” “But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”

"John here tells us that we are not made children of God by birth (“of blood”), or by our own attempts whether they be through our lower nature (“of the flesh”) or even through the higher powers of our soul (“the will of man”). Rather, we must be born of God, or by God’s power. Notice John refers to natural birth colloquially as “of blood,” not “of water.”