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Epistemes
Guest
Are believers of Islam, Judaism and other world religions deluded? If they die justly for their beliefs, is such a death in vain?
If Catholicism is the true religion, why are non-believers willing to be martyred?
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SingleMomMonica
Guest
To die for God is a holy thing. God judges the heart of each of us, not just our theology. He knows better than we do whether those people of other faiths who died for their faith were ever really properly evangelized and whether or not they truly know that the Catholic Church is the True Faith. Those who did know, I mean really know it to the core of their being, and still rejected His Church - those would have died in vain, if they died for another faith. We must leave everyone to the Mercy and Love of God as thankfully only He is fit to Judge.
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
False belief can exist without delusion.
It is never vain to perform the act that is just.
That one is willing to die for a cause shows that there are values held by that person which are thought to exceed the value of their own life.
That persons of different religions, nations, and political perspectives hold that certain values are worth defending at the cost of their own lives demonstrates that martyrdom alone does not prove a value to be true.
However, one can question the subjective value of a point of view for which no one is willing to die.
That non-Catholics are willing to be martyred is not a disproof of Catholicism. If no Catholics were willing to be martyred in the face of violent opposition it might offer some cause for concern. It would reflect on the lack of intensity in the belief of an apostle if he should have apostasized in the face of death. While that would not alter the facts of the Gospel, we have to recognize that our faith is truly apostolic. We are convinced in part because if the aopostles were a bunch of schemers, they probably couldn’t have had the intensity of commitment that martyrdom requires. Few people are willing to die for promotion of pranks. The pulling off of a hoax, while amusing, just doesn’t inspire in the way perceived truth does. Through martyrdom, the apostolic witness is strengthened by the knowledge that they really believed when they claimed to have seen the Resurrected Saviour.
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bpbasilphx
Guest
Yes to both.
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Bear_Claw
Guest
The statement is a pretty good one and your title specifically should make you think….
The first word there is If.
This is actually the crux because no religion can be proven to be true…I mean REALLY proven.
So, the fact that a follower of Islam is willing to die for what he believes in, is essentially the same thing as a Catholic who is willing to die for what he believes in.
To ask if it’s valid you have to go back to which is actually true, and no one can do that. Both throw their holy books on the table as proof….both are un-provable.
The crux is it’s all the same…people die for what they THINK is the truth.
Are the Islamic martyrs deluded? Maybe no more than Catholic martyrs….there is no proof.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Hogwash.
Catholicism CAN be proven as the religion established by Christ. I mean REALLY proven (as you say). Islamic martyrs ARE deluded (as you say), And the Catholic martyrs which date back 2,000 years and have been throughout the centuries, ARE truly martyred for Jesus Christ.
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Reuben_J
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Sonny1954
Guest
The succinct answer is, I suppose, that they are willing to die for their faith because they BELIEVE in it very deeply. The willingness forfeit one’s life for one’s religious belief is evidence of profound conviction, it seems to me.
Not everyone has had enough of the right exposure to Catholicism to accept it as the true religion. Is that their fault? Or is it the fault of the Church itself for failing in its missionary call? Perhaps it’s not a question of “fault” at all. I am not prepared to answer that.
My personal belief is that anyone who is willing to die for their faith–their understanding of God–will go to Heaven. I myself do not believe that God will deny anyone who seeks him so ardently.
Not everyone has had enough of the right exposure to Catholicism to accept it as the true religion. Is that their fault? Or is it the fault of the Church itself for failing in its missionary call? Perhaps it’s not a question of “fault” at all. I am not prepared to answer that.
My personal belief is that anyone who is willing to die for their faith–their understanding of God–will go to Heaven. I myself do not believe that God will deny anyone who seeks him so ardently.
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Thruxton
Guest
So that would all suicide bombers are in heaven.
I disagree. Strongly. Very, very strongly.
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Sonny1954
Guest
It also includes Catholic Crusaders who committed atrocities in the Holy land. And the Conquistadors who savaged native civilizations in the name of the Gospel. God is more merciful than we are.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
All I can say is thank God for the Crusades!
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RoryMcKenzie56
Guest
Who did you have in mind that committed savage acts “in the name of the Gospel”, and then goes to heaven when they get killed? That pleases God? During which Crusade would you say the Catholics can be correctly accused of committing atrocities in the Holy Land and then going to heaven for getting killed? God doesn’t care what we do, even unto savagery and atrocity so long as we cloak our sins in God’s name? He rewards that?
Being killed is not martyrdom. Nor is killing yourself as suicide bombers. I can’t think of any Conquistadors or Crusaders guilty of atrocities and savagery in the way you have proposed as a common fact, but if I did, I fail to see why the fact that someone killed them should be considered meritorious on the part of the perpetrators of savage atrocities.
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