If Catholicism is true why there are still Jews?

[devonsams]

I was discussing with my friends about the church, and one of them is trying to convert to catholicism, but he have some doubts, he asked me: “Hey, if Catholicism is true why there are still jews? Think about it, God chose a people and created a religion, Judaism, then he promised a messiah to his people and he sent this messiah, but he was not very specific in his scriptures and there are still people who find in his own scriptures that this messiah did not accomplish this pre-requirements to a messiah, and therefore they are still jews, so how could he create a religion, but he was not very clear in his own scriptures and left astray his own people waiting until today the messiah? Why he did not make very clear to don’t left astray his own people, the jews and left them waiting until today the messiah? And Still, if catholicism is true, why he was not very specific that he wanted to create one, and one single church, one pope, so we would not have hundreds and hundreds of protestant nominations? Why he did not make specific in the bible that he would only make one Church, and just one instead to leave us astray?”

I tried to say that God would not force us to follow his religion, and he would try to freely attract us to the true church and religion, but i’m not into this business of Old Scriptures, and Early Christianity, someone could help me with this one? Thank you!

 

[garysibio]

I was discussing with my friends about the church, and one of them is trying to convert to catholicism, but he have some doubts, he asked me: “Hey, if Catholicism is true why there are still jews? Think about it, God chose a people and created a religion, Judaism, then he promised a messiah to his people and he sent this messiah, but he was not very specific in his scriptures and there are still people who find in his own scriptures that this messiah did not accomplish this pre-requirements to a messiah, and therefore they are still jews, so how could he create a religion, but he was not very clear in his own scriptures and left astray his own people waiting until today the messiah? Why he did not make very clear to don’t left astray his own people, the jews and left them waiting until today the messiah? And Still, if catholicism is true, why he was not very specific that he wanted to create one, and one single church, one pope, so we would not have hundreds and hundreds of protestant nominations? Why he did not make specific in the bible that he would only make one Church, and just one instead to leave us astray?”

I tried to say that God would not force us to follow his religion, and he would try to freely attract us to the true church and religion, but i’m not into this business of Old Scriptures, and Early Christianity, someone could help me with this one? Thank you!

 

[garysibio]

I was discussing with my friends about the church, and one of them is trying to convert to catholicism, but he have some doubts, he asked me: “Hey, if Catholicism is true why there are still jews? Think about it, God chose a people and created a religion, Judaism, then he promised a messiah to his people and he sent this messiah, but he was not very specific in his scriptures and there are still people who find in his own scriptures that this messiah did not accomplish this pre-requirements to a messiah, and therefore they are still jews, so how could he create a religion, but he was not very clear in his own scriptures and left astray his own people waiting until today the messiah? Why he did not make very clear to don’t left astray his own people, the jews and left them waiting until today the messiah? And Still, if catholicism is true, why he was not very specific that he wanted to create one, and one single church, one pope, so we would not have hundreds and hundreds of protestant nominations? Why he did not make specific in the bible that he would only make one Church, and just one instead to leave us astray?”

I tried to say that God would not force us to follow his religion, and he would try to freely attract us to the true church and religion, but i’m not into this business of Old Scriptures, and Early Christianity, someone could help me with this one? Thank you!

The quick and dirty answer is free choice. The Jews who don’t convert do so of their own free will.

However, I want to dispute one thing you said:

but he was not very clear in his own scriptures and left astray his own people waiting until today the messiah? Why he did not make very clear to don’t left astray his own people, the jews and left them waiting until today the messiah?

Have you ever taken a good look at messianic prophecy? It gets pretty specific. It’s very clear that Jesus is the Messiah.

 

[MarcoPolo]

There’s a good article at Shameless Popery called Three Prophesies About Christ That Couldn’t Have Been Made Up.

To the OP, there were a number of Jews in Scripture who were convinced and they converted, including ones who saw Christ in the prophecies, such as the Bereans (Acts 17).

 

[yellow8yellowM]

…there were a number of Jews in Scripture who were convinced and they converted, including ones who saw Christ in the prophecies, such as the Bereans (Acts 17).

As well as the Apostles themselves.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

The quick and dirty answer is free choice. The Jews who don’t convert do so of their own free will.

However, I want to dispute one thing you said:

Have you ever taken a good look at messianic prophecy? It gets pretty specific. It’s very clear that Jesus is the Messiah.

Hmmmn, I don’t think so. We of course glibly promote minor/obscure “prophecies” to top level if they can be in any way applied to Jesus and demote even the apparantly clearer ones if they cannot. An obvious case of victors (re-)writing the history.
I am not saying Jesus wasn’t prophecied in the OT. But there’s a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Isn’t life just the same? Which is why sincere Jews can be found in Judaism and sincere Protestantsd can be found in Protestantism and sincere Buddhists in Buddhism and sincere Muslims in Islam… and insincere Catholics in Catholicism. It isn’t rocket science .

Jesus prophecied no stone would be left upon a stone in the destruction of Jerusalem…so what is the Jewish “wailing wall” then? Prophecy is tricky isn’t it .

 

[empantarhei]

We should get Meltzerboy to weigh in on this

I hope he does, too.

 

[SonCatcher]

Judaism does hold truth, even though it is not “full” as Catholicism is (I fully expect Jewish members to disagree with me, here ).

The power of revealed Truth is revealed in its stability. Unfortunately, this makes it difficult to recognize the a fuller form.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I was discussing with my friends about the church, and one of them is trying to convert to catholicism, but he have some doubts, he asked me: "Hey, if Catholicism is true why there are still jews?

You do realize that of the 12 original ”tribes" of Israel, only one, the house of Judah remains? The others which essentially formed the northern Kingdom of Israel were dispersed by the Assyrians or assimilated with five other groups that were brought into the land held by Israel and became the Samaritans. The fact that only one house (that of Judah from which Judaism or Judaic comes) remains was because of a promise by God to David that his house would “last forever” and from which the Messiah and true King of Israel would descend and reign forever. That Jesus was a descendent of David and that only the house of Judah remains extant is very much supported by Biblical prophecy. See 2 Samuel 7:13.

 

[SonCatcher]

You do realize that of the 12 original ”tribes" of Israel, only one, the house of Judah remains? The others which essentially formed the northern Kingdom of Israel were dispersed by the Assyrians or assimilated with five other groups that were brought into the land held by Israel and became the Samaritans. The fact that only one house (that of Judah from which Judaism or Judaic comes) remains was because of a promise by God to David that his house would “last forever” and from which the Messiah and true King of Israel would descend and reign forever. That Jesus was a descendent of David and that only the house of Judah remains extant is very much supported by Biblical prophecy. See 2 Samuel 7:13.

St. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, so some remnant remained of the other tribes.

There were also tons of Levites around.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Jesus prophecied no stone would be left upon a stone in the destruction of Jerusalem…so what is the Jewish “wailing wall” then? Prophecy is tricky isn’t it .

There are also serious questions about whether the Wailing Wall was indeed part of the Temple Mount (wall surrounding the Temple platform) or not.

askelm.com/temple/t000701.htm

In any case it wasn’t part of the Temple proper so it is not clear why its existence in any way nullifies Jesus’ prophecy. His reference is specifically to the buildings themselves.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Matt 24:1-2)

 

[onemangang]

God chose to reveal Himself progressively throughout time, the fullness of God revealing Himself to humanity was in (is in) Christ Jesus!

Christ established a Church to be an active participant in continuing to reveal God to humanity, as He guides her into all truth!

As far as I can see anyways

 

[Hasire]

You do realize that of the 12 original ”tribes" of Israel, only one, the house of Judah remains? The others which essentially formed the northern Kingdom of Israel were dispersed by the Assyrians or assimilated with five other groups that were brought into the land held by Israel and became the Samaritans. The fact that only one house (that of Judah from which Judaism or Judaic comes) remains was because of a promise by God to David that his house would “last forever” and from which the Messiah and true King of Israel would descend and reign forever. That Jesus was a descendent of David and that only the house of Judah remains extant is very much supported by Biblical prophecy. See 2 Samuel 7:13.

Let’s not forget that the Tribe of Dan is still around. The Church Fathers told us that the Antichrist will descend from that tribe.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Let’s not forget that the Tribe of Dan is still around. The Church Fathers told us that the Antichrist will descend from that tribe.

The Church Fathers would not be considered en par with Scripture, but who precisely suggested that to be the case and why?

 

[Hasire]

The Church Fathers would not be considered en par with Scripture, but who precisely suggested that to be the case and why?

St. Hippolytus of Rome

1. Thus did the Scriptures preach before-time of this lion and lion’s whelp. And in like manner also we find it written regarding Antichrist. For Moses speaks thus: “Dan is a lion’s whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan.”[38] But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Saviour, let him attend carefully to the matter. “Dan,” he says, “is a lion’s whelp;” and in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan.[39] And that the case stands thus, we see also from the words of Jacob: “Let Dan be a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse’s heel.”[40] What, then, is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis,[41] who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam (πτερνίσας, bruised Adam’s heel)? But since it is necessary to prove this assertion by sufficient testimony, we shall not shrink from the task.
2. That it is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise, the prophet testifies when he says, “Dan shall judge his people, as (he is) also one tribe in Israel.”[42] But some one may say that this refers to Samson, who sprang from the tribe of Dan, and judged the people twenty years. Well, the prophecy had its partial fulfilment in Samson, but its complete fulfilment is reserved for Antichrist. For Jeremiah also speaks to this effect: “From Dan we are to hear the sound of the swiftness of his horses: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing, of the driving of his horses.”[43] And another prophet says: “He shall gather together all his strength, from the east even to the west. They whom he calls, and they whom he calls not, shall go with him. He shall make the sea white with the sails of his ships, and the plain black with the shields of his armaments. And whosoever shall oppose him in war shall fall by the sword.”[44] That these things, then, are said of no one else but that tyrant, and shameless one, and adversary of God, we shall show in what follows.

 

[Peter_Plato]

St. Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, so some remnant remained of the other tribes.

There were also tons of Levites around.

The Levites were given priestly duties and no land but distributed among 48 different worship centers after Joshua effectively took control of the land of Canaan. It would be presumed that most of the Levites in the Northern Kingdom would have suffered the same fate as the other tribes.

Recall also that the tribe of Benjamin had virtually been destroyed (only 600 males survived) by the other tribes in the Book of Judges (20-21) and intermarried but later resurfaced to ally with Judah as the Southern Kingdom. In a sense Benjamin had already been all but wiped out previous to the exile.

 

[Peter_Plato]

St. Hippolytus of Rome

1. Thus did the Scriptures preach before-time of this lion and lion’s whelp. And in like manner also we find it written regarding Antichrist. For Moses speaks thus: “Dan is a lion’s whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan.”[38] But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Saviour, let him attend carefully to the matter. “Dan,” he says, “is a lion’s whelp;” and in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan.[39] And that the case stands thus, we see also from the words of Jacob: “Let Dan be a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse’s heel.”[40] What, then, is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis,[41] who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam (πτερνίσας, bruised Adam’s heel)? But since it is necessary to prove this assertion by sufficient testimony, we shall not shrink from the task.
2. That it is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise, the prophet testifies when he says, “Dan shall judge his people, as (he is) also one tribe in Israel.”[42] But some one may say that this refers to Samson, who sprang from the tribe of Dan, and judged the people twenty years. Well, the prophecy had its partial fulfilment in Samson, but its complete fulfilment is reserved for Antichrist. For Jeremiah also speaks to this effect: “From Dan we are to hear the sound of the swiftness of his horses: the whole land trembled at the sound of the neighing, of the driving of his horses.”[43] And another prophet says: “He shall gather together all his strength, from the east even to the west. They whom he calls, and they whom he calls not, shall go with him. He shall make the sea white with the sails of his ships, and the plain black with the shields of his armaments. And whosoever shall oppose him in war shall fall by the sword.”[44] That these things, then, are said of no one else but that tyrant, and shameless one, and adversary of God, we shall show in what follows.

Even if true that an individual at a future time could be traced back to descendency from the tribe of Dan does not mean the tribe itself remains in any identifiable form.

 

[Hasire]

Even if true that an individual at a future time could be traced back to descendency from the tribe of Dan does not mean the tribe itself remains in any identifiable form.

Well, that’s another thing lol

 

[Blue_Horizon]

There are also serious questions about whether the Wailing Wall was indeed part of the Temple Mount (wall surrounding the Temple platform) or not.

askelm.com/temple/t000701.htm

In any case it wasn’t part of the Temple proper so it is not clear why its existence in any way nullifies Jesus’ prophecy. His reference is specifically to the buildings themselves.

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” (Matt 24:1-2)

PP you have ably confirmed exactly the point I am making. There is often just enough ambiguity, enough lack of information, enough distortion in transmission…for people on either side to credibly cast doubt on each other but not enough to carry the day either way. .

To be honest I think the solution in this case is quite simple. “stone upon a stone” is simply a dramatic phrase meaning completely destroyed. To try and tease apart the words and expect fulfillment of that literally is just silly. Its a bit like saying “firstborn” has to mean Mary had other children after Jesus. Its a formal title for the love of God! Yet our (Protestant/atheist?) brethren seem to fight threads to the death over that one!

 

[Peter_Plato]

PP you have ably confirmed exactly the point I am making. There is often just enough ambiguity, enough lack of information, enough distortion in transmission…for people on either side to credibly cast doubt on each other but not enough to carry the day either way. .

Most of the ambiguity results from modern interpreters attempting to impose the writing styles and techniques of today on ancient texts. The more that these texts are read from the point of view of the writers with a sympathetic and not critical eye, the more they come to life in the larger context of their purpose in salvation history. It is surprising how consistent and informative Scriptures are when read with the eyes of faith, but how truly confounding but rich for “quote mining” they are to the cynic. That in itself speaks something of their “divine” quality.