If Catholics can interpret this passage loosely

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A lot of you have given reasons why we should trust the Magisterium. But I cannot trust a Magisterium that:
  • Oppresses women by mandating that pregnancies be carried out. I don’t see a loving Jesus mandating that women carry out their pregnancies, and have to suffer. Jesus, who ministered to prostitutes, would never mandate such a thing.
  • Oppresses gays by advocating denial of civil rights and adoption rights. The Bible does not explicitly say that gay sex is a sin. Rather, it speaks against temple prostitution and pederasty. I don’t see a loving Jesus mandating that gays cannot get civil rights to marriage. Such denial is promulgation of hatred and goes against Jesus.
  • Oppresses divorced people by denying them the chance to remarry within the Church (and don’t say annulment can be obtained; there are people on CAF that are divorced and can’t remarry). I don’t see a loving Jesus saying that divorced people cannot remarry. The Bible allows divorce in cases of marital unfaithfulness. In a modern era in which lifespan is increasing and there are no more financial incentives to stay married, I don’t see Jesus forcing divorced people to suffer in today’s world, especially when the divorce is not their fault.
  • Promulgates a guilt-mongering, fear-mongering system of mortal and venial sin, with the idea that if you do not confess mortal sins, you are guaranteed hell. This goes against John 3:16, which states that those who believe are given eternal life. I don’t see a loving Jesus sending people to hell in this way. Jesus never used guilt to win converts in the New Testament. People chose to believe because of the work of Jesus that they witnessed. Are people witnessing Jesus’ work in the Catholic Church, or rather, a symbol of hate, oppression, and irrelevance? One only needs to see the higher conversion growth rates of Protestantism to find out.
  • Promotes saint and Marian devotion at the expense of devotion to God. By doing this, the Catholic Church is hindering access to God directly. Jesus had access to God directly, and therefore a personal relationship to God. Why doesn’t the Catholic Church promote the same? Protestant churches do.
  • Takes an active hand in the colonization of Spanish America. Took an active hand in wars and politics of Europe. Continuing to meddle in politics today. This is empire building, which Jesus never did. Jesus never said we should meddle in politics.
No, for these reasons and others, I, along with billions of others, cannot trust the Magisterium. I, along with billions of others, do not see Jesus in the Magisterium. It is clear the Magisterium has lost its way, and that the only churches that are picking up the slack, if any, are Protestant churches.

Jesus foresaw today’s world and I believe Jesus would adapt his teachings to be relevant to the modern world, in the same way that Paul adapted the Gospel to make it relevant to different nations he traveled to.
Jesus specifically condemned adultery. Specifically.
He also condemned murder. Specifically.
Jesus also forgave sins, stated there were sins that
could not be forgiven in this life or next.
Promised judgement, salvation and reassured all
that Hell exists.

Now the Church that believes and practices what
Jesus claimed you call oppressive and abusive.
Ultimately what you are saying is Jesus Christ far
from being the unconditionally loving and forgiving
guy you want the Church to be was in fact abusive
and oppressive.
 
If Catholics can interpret passages of the Bible loosely to conclude that: …

Can someone help? If you say the Magisterium helps us, then why should we continue to trust the Magisterium in the face of continuing Catholic Church scandal?
Catholics don’t believe in Sola Scriptura. So It doesn’t matter how the Protestant’s interpret the bible if they don’t have the teaching authority of the Church (ie. Magisterium), Apostolic Succession, or Apostolic Tradition. Without those 3 legs to stand on they only have a wobbly 1 legged stool. The Catholic faith is based on all 3 legs and is thus a firm foundation to rest on.

Each leg confirms one another. For example, on the doctrine of the Eucharist, we see in Christian Tradition that everyone believed that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ. There isn’t anyone who states any differently until in the 11th century. But, even then everyone agreed at that time that he was a heretic. And, then it wasn’t until after the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. so all 3 legs confirm one another on the doctrine of the Eucharist. Scripture also can be squared away with this teaching with a reading of John 6. Certainly one could choose to read it as symbolic. However, if we read it in light of the other legs of the stool, Tradition and Magisterium, we are confirmed in the Catholic interpretation.

And, thus we have a self correcting mechanism in the Church for guarding the faith that is passed down from the Apostles. Conversely, with scripture alone theology, we have no self correcting mechanism. Which is obvious when we consider how many thousands of Protestant denominations there are who disagree with each other on scripture interpretation.
 
If Catholics can interpret passages of the Bible loosely to conclude that:
  • Purgatory exists
  • One must confess sins to a priest
  • There exist mortal and venial sin
  • Praying to saints is okay and God is pleased with it
  • Mary has a high position
  • Abortion is a grave evil
  • Contraception is a grave evil
  • Homosexual sex is a sin
  • Tradition must be followed
  • The Eucharist is the Real Presence
  • The Bible is not the only authority and the Church is the pillar of the Truth
  • Peter is the Rock on which the Church stands, and Rome is primary and infallible in areas of faith and morals
Then why can’t Protestants interpret passages of the Bible loosely to conclude that:
  • Sola Scriptura is true
  • Purgatory does not exist
  • Prayers should be sent to God only
  • Confessions should be sent to God only
  • Mary does not have a high position
  • Homosexuality is not a sin; rather, temple prostitution and pederasty were being referred to
  • There is nothing banning contraception
  • Drinking alcohol is a sin
  • Smoking tobacco is a sin
  • Certain forms of dancing are sins
  • Having statutes in church is idolatry
  • It is not necessary to adhere to all Holy Tradition, and the Gospel can and should be adapted to be relevant to people of all cultures and times, for evangelization purposes
  • The Eucharist is symbolic
  • Jesus is the Rock on which the Church stands, and therefore Rome is not primary
Can someone help? If you say the Magisterium helps us, then why should we continue to trust the Magisterium in the face of continuing Catholic Church scandal?
The Magisterium is the one who decided what constituted the Bible in the first place. If one is to look at scripture for anything, he or she must look at all of it and not to toss the parts which you don’t agree with, as the Protestants have done. Purgatory, for example.
Also the language and translations is no guarantee of disseminating the truth either. The Church/Magisterium used to burn at the stake those who took it upon themselves to spread heresies via translations.
 
I should clarify myself and add that the 3 legged stool in the Catholic Church is
  1. Teaching authority of the Church or Magisterium. (Apostolic Succession is really part of this. Since the authority to teach comes from Jesus through the Apostles to their successors.)
  2. Sacred Tradition
  3. Sacred Scripture
All 3 help support each other and provide a self correcting mechanism.
 
The Catholic and EOC view of how God’s word is transmitted down through time goes back through the Fathers to the NT authors themselves. It is that God’s word is transmitted by the combined and organically-related process of Scripture and apostolic Tradition in the apostolic Church (=STC). The Bible was written by believers who were in the Church and shared its apostolic tradition for such believers. The Apostolic Church and the tradition it passed on were then (and are still) the native hermeneutic environment for Scripture. The Protestant Reformers protested against this view held by the CC and EOC and proposed sola scriptura (=SS) in its place.

The CC does not teach that the Pope or Ecumenical Councils were uber-interpreters slamming down an Ace on a game of can we all guess what the Bible means as we each try derive Christianity for ourselves. They are part of an interrelated process of encountering/handing on God’s living word that comes to us in Scripture but also in the church’s teaching, life and worship (of God) all rooted in Pentecost and the apostles’ oral proclamation/transmission of the Gospel stemming from it. The CC isn’t just interpreting the Bible alone it is handing on God’s word in it’s entirety in the manner done in the NT times and thereafter.

So, to some statement you think are loose interpretations:
  • Tradition must be followed
    There is nothing that states that we MUST follow Holy Tradition. We know that Paul, in his missionary journeys, adapted himself to connect with multiple cultures so that he can spread the Gospel, the way Protestants do now.
I have attached a list of what the NT authors teach regarding the transmission of God’s word. It speaks for itself about the role and normative value (“MUST”) of tradition. See #7 for an explicit statement, but all together they form a cumulative argument. I’d be glad to discuss it with you.
  • There exist mortal and venial sin
    There are no Biblical verses on point; rather, an analysis of the consequences different people faced for different sins according to various verses.
“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.”
(1 Jn 5:16-17; RSV Translation) But thank you for playing.

See also James 5:19-20. a brother “straying from the truth [of the faith]” suffers the death of his soul unless brought back.

Also Jesus clearly distinguishes at least one mortal sin: the sin against the Holy Spirit.
The Bible does mention confessing sins to each other. But it doesn’t necessitate the dogmatic, guilt-mongering system that the CC devised in which one must confess mortal sins to remain in a state of grace, or else one faces hell. It doesn’t exclude the possibility that absolution can be obtained by confessing to God directly.
That’s funny, I never found it that way. Why do you?

And actually, it is not the just CC: it is also the EOC that has individual confession. Oh yeah, the Anglican Church too.

The NT has teaches numerous moral absolutes (what you mistakenly call “dogmatic”).

And the undivided church has always had the reconciliation of penitents (reformed sinners) involving some confession of sins, although not always private.

Go study your history instead of blurting out uninformed rhetoric.
It doesn’t exclude the possibility of Once Saved, Always Saved.
Even Protestants dispute this. See here.
 
  1. The apostles are our source of knowledge about the teaching, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus either as His witnesses (the Twelve) or an inspired teacher (Paul) [Lk 1:2; 24:48; Jn 15:27; 20:30; 21:24; Acts 1:3,21-22; 10:40-41; Gal 1:11-12; Eph 3:3].
  2. Jesus told the twelve apostles to preach and teach [Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15; Lk 24:47; Acts 10:42]. The word of God was transmitted by the apostles orally first: the Gospel was carried by believers [Acts 2 esp. v 42; Acts 5:42; 6:4; 15:35; 18:11; 20:27; 1 Thes 2:13; 1 Tim 2:7; 1 Jn 1:2-3; 1 Pet 1:23,25]. The oral word is the entire reality and revealed content of the Christian faith including the correct interpretation of the Old Testament given by Christ and handed on interpersonally to and in the body of Christ by the apostles. This is the word of God / word of the Lord / the Gospel. (see texts above especially Acts).
  3. The word spread orally [Acts 6:7; 12:24; 19:20; 1 Thes 1:8; 1 Tim 2:9; 2 Tim 1:13; Jude 17], and people came to the faith and were saved by the oral word [Jn 17:20; Acts 2:41; 4:4; 8:14; 11:1; 16:32-33; Rm 10:8-17; 1 Cor 4:15; 15:1-3; Eph 1:13; Col 1:5-6; 2:6-7; 1 Tim 6:12; 1 Pet 1:23-25; 1 Jn 2:24] which is a norm [Jn 12:50; 1 Cor 15:1-2; Gal 1:6-9; Col 1:23; 2 Tim 1:13].
  4. The oral transmission of the word stemming from the apostles will not die out [1 Pet 1:23-25].
  5. The apostles are, therefore, the foundation of the Church [Eph 2:20; Rev 21:14; also Acts 2:1-14,41-42,47; 5:41-42].
  6. Not everything that Jesus or the apostles taught or did was written down in scripture [Jn 16:12-13; 20:30-31; 21:24-25; 1 Cor 11:34; Philip 4:9; 2 Jn 12; 3 Jn 13-14].
  7. In three passages Paul expressly enjoins his readers to hold to the “tradition(s)” (paradosis) they have received before he wrote to them [1 Cor 11:2; 2 Thes 2:15; 3:6].
    In addition, the verb form, paradidomi, usually translated as “deliver” or “hand on,” is used in reference to transmitting the whole faith before the letters were written [Rm 6:17 teaching “delivered”; 2 Pet 2:21 commandment “delivered”; Jude 3 the faith “delivered”]. See also Philip 4:9.
  8. Fellow workers and successors were appointed by the apostles over the flock [AA 14:23; 2 Tim 4:2-5; Titus 1:5-9; 2:1,15; cf. 1 Tim 5:19-21, 22]. Paul states that the Holy Spirit has appointed them overseers (AA 20:28). In Col 1:7 we learn that Epaphras, a fellow worker with Paul, founded the Church at Colossae.
  9. The process of handing on the faith orally through successive generations of believers is acknowledged, affirmed, and ordered. [Rm 10:17; 1 Thes 1:8; 2 Tim 1:13-14; 2:2; 2 Cor 8:16-18; Col 1:6-8; Tit 1:9] The process pre-dates the letters and the content is not specified.
    [In connection with this Paul uses the noun *paratheke (a thing entrusted for safe keeping : a deposit : a trust) and the verb paratithemi (to entrust for safe keeping : to deposit). Paul entrusts to Timothy the charge to preach the Gospel (1 Tim 1:18) and reminds him to guard what has been entrusted to him (6:20); he repeats his injunction to guard the trust/deposit (2 Tim 1:14) as he himself has (1:12) and then further tells Timothy to entrust it to others so they can orally teach yet others (2:2). It is hard to imagine a more apt description of tradition.]
  10. Jesus willed to establish a church (not claiming any particular church or denomination or leadership structure here: just a church) [Matt 16:18; 18:17].
  11. Paul identifies the body of Christ as the church [Col 1:18, 24; Eph 1:22].
  12. Jesus established only one church, one body of Christ–all local churches in NT are concrete expressions of the one church founded by Christ. (no claims here as to which church) [Eph 4:4; also 1 Cor 12:12]
  13. It follows from the above and is expressly stated in Eph 3:10 that the oral apostolic word is made known through the Church.
  14. The Church has the “Spirit of Truth” (Jn 16:13; cf. 1 Cor 2:12; 2 Tim 1:14) and the “mind of Christ" (1 Cor 2:16). She is well-equipped to preserve the oral apostolic word.
  15. The apostles and other NT authors did not write under inspiration as private individuals, but as members of the body of Christ for members of the body. (e.g., Paul’s letters are to churches already formed in person by him or others.)
  16. The NT writings were read in the context of the oral preaching handed on and of the body/community receiving it, usually established by that apostle/writer [1-2 Cor; 1-2 Thes; Gal; 1 Jn are examples].
  17. No NT author teaches that everything taught by the apostles that God wanted humanity to have and transmit was written down. In fact, the NT suggests just the opposite.
  18. No NT author teaches that the authoritative transmission of the oral apostolic word by the body of Christ was to cease after the NT canon was collected.
  19. Biblical authors do not portray or teach that the word of God is an exclusively written word or that the word of God is limited to, equivalent to, and coextensive with the written text of Scripture. [e.g., “God said, ‘Let there be . . .”; Ps 29—“the voice of the Lord”; Is 30:30-31—“voice”; Is 55:10-11—the word goes forth from God’s mouth; 1 Thes 1:8—the word of the Lord sounded forth; 1 Thes 2:13–what they received from Paul before the letter was written was the word of God, etc. Also #s 2-3, 6-9 above.] No biblical author teaches, if you will, that the pen is mightier than the word.
  20. There is no text in the NT that makes the express, direct, and self-referential assertion that we must go solely by the Bible (the written word) to derive the whole of sound doctrine. e.g., “The complete set of truths that God wanted to give humanity are to be found by the individual or collective interpretation of the Bible alone.”
 
Wow! A movement whose life style dissents from the unanimous teaching of the Judeo Christian tradition for about 3,000 yrs publishes a statement that the Bible [amazingly!] never really meant that teaching in the first place. Who would have guessed.

Look. From Genesis through Revelation the vision of human sexuality is heterosexual with the NT particularly stressing that this is in marriage.

Just a few particulars. I would recommend Raymond F. Collins (a Professor of New Testament) Sexual Ethics and the New Testament (2000).

He consistently brings to light what Paul and other the NT authors actually conveyed by their words in context.

He agrees that homosexual behavior was a known fact of the ancient world, but goes on to note that there was a Jewish consensus against such behavior well before the time of Christ (pp. 90-1, 137). Even non-biblical Jewish writings as far back as 250 BC distinguished the Jews from Gentiles by the fact that Jews did not engage in homosexual activity (102-3, 132, 134-5, 138). Collins stresses that Paul was aware of this consensus and built on it in his own writing (137).

Secondly, while it is self-evident that Paul’s generation did not know the Medieval formulation of the natural law, it is equally true that natural law theory goes back significantly before Christ to the Stoic idea of a “law of nature.” Roman writers later took over this idea. Cicero 50 years before Christ wrote one classic expression of it in De Legibus. Professor Collins observes that two Jewish contemporaries of Paul, Philo of Alexandria a philosopher and Flavius Josephus an historian, as well as Paul himself speak about “nature” (physis in Greek) with regard to homosexual activity (136, 144 n30). Philo and Josephus speak about homosexual acts as being against the laws of nature, and Paul also speaks (Rom 1:26-27) about them as being para physin, which is correctly translated as “against or contrary to nature” (136-7, 144 n31). Collins goes on to say that by using the word physis these three were bringing themselves into dialogue with the philosophers of the time who emphasized a law of nature in their sexual ethics (136, 191). Further unlike most OT, Rabbinic, and Classical authors who discuss and proscribe only male homosexual activity Paul includes a rejection lesbian activity as well in Romans (140, 145 n41).

In the classical world kata physis means “according to nature” or “normal.” “Normal” is especially common in medical literature. Para physis means “against nature” or “abnormal.” These phrases are used in the classical world in ethical judgments “above all with reference to sexual failings.” Normal sexual intercourse is kata physis while abnormal is para physis. [Gerhard Kittle, ed., *Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 10 vols. (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm R. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1968-74), vol. IX, p. 262-263.]

According to Collins, it goes beyond the evidence of Paul’s words to claim his writings merely forbid certain actions while making no reference to one’s inclinations (142). Paul’s use of physis means what is natural by God’s creative intent in human beings (142, 192). This coincides with Jesus’ vision of sexuality–that from the beginning it is heterosexual and within marriage (27, 32, 187).

Regarding the word arsenokoitai (1 Cor 6:9), Collins’ conclusion based upon studies of the word is that Paul may have coined the word arsenokoitai and etymologically it means “bedding down with a man” (89). The Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek lexicon indicates that this neologism of Paul’s seems to be a Greek translation of the Hebrew miškab zakûr used in rabbinic texts based on Lv 18:22, i.e., “lying with a man as with a woman” (99 n70).
 
If Sola Scriptura were true, then 1) there wouldn’t be any debate on what the Bible means, and 2) you could get a list of the books of the Bible from within the Bible, without need for Tradition.

“To pray” just means “to ask”. There are even cases in the KJV where humans are prayed to. (And as early as Genesis, I might add)

“From this day, all generations will call me blessed” Lk 1:48
“Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’” Jn 19:27

Mary gave birth to God himself, and you mean to tell me she’s not important?

Ignoring the Last Supper, I point out the Wedding at Cana. Jesus’ first miracle involved wine. If alcohol was necessarily sinful, and not just sinful in excess, wouldn’t it have made more sense to miraculously turn it back into water?

I’m 19, and I have to agree about grinding.

“Make one cherub on the end, and one cherub on the other end” Ex 25:19, just 5 chapters after the Decalogue.

The prohibition is not against any and all statues. If you look at the verse in context, you see God telling them to make statues quite a few times. The cherubim on the Ark, the bronze serpent, the cherubim in the Temple… The prohibition is against making idols and worshiping them as God.

Don’t you think he would have called the crowd back in John 6? Or if it was symbolic, then why did so many people choose to die for it.

Luther disagrees with you. :cool:
True!

:)—I was just want add that we should not read Holy Scripture all to be taken literally, some meant to be taken symbolically.

Look at this! —If you say He is the apple of your eyes, what does it mean? means He is so special and important as life it self, ----Consider what must be if you take literally, then He is an apple,

A fruit?

it is we do not want comes to that.
 
This is completely false. I have had far more “access to God” directly in Catholicism than my Protestant religion. I pray to God everyday and whenever I ask the saints to pray for me it gives me more access to God.
God bless you for your wonderful answers! 👍
 
A lot of you have given reasons why we should trust the Magisterium. But I cannot trust a Magisterium that:
  • Oppresses women by mandating that pregnancies be carried out. I don’t see a loving Jesus mandating that women carry out their pregnancies, and have to suffer. Jesus, who ministered to prostitutes, would never mandate such a thing.
So - advocating FOR the unborn is oppressing women? You do realize that approximately half of the aborted children are female right? So which is more oppressive? Is it more oppressive to a woman to say that she should carry the child to term and give it life…Or is it more oppressive to women in general to murder approximately 2000 of the every day (in the U.S.)
  • Oppresses gays by advocating denial of civil rights and adoption rights
.
Actually the Church does not advocate against the civil rights of gays. What she advocates against is redefining marriage to include same sex couples. Leaders of the Church have actually stated that they would not object to legislation that would provide for civil protections in same sex unions.
The Bible does not explicitly say that gay sex is a sin. Rather, it speaks against temple prostitution and pederasty. I don’t see a loving Jesus mandating that gays cannot get civil rights to marriage. Such denial is promulgation of hatred and goes against Jesus.
Others have already pointed out the bible basis for the Church’s teaching. There is no hatred in this…in fact the Church has clearly stated that we should not hate people who have SSA. So - there is no promulgation of hatred.
There may be individuals who DO hate…but that is not Church teaching.
  • Oppresses divorced people by denying them the chance to remarry within the Church (and don’t say annulment can be obtained; there are people on CAF that are divorced and can’t remarry). I don’t see a loving Jesus saying that divorced people cannot remarry. The Bible allows divorce in cases of marital unfaithfulness. In a modern era in which lifespan is increasing and there are no more financial incentives to stay married, I don’t see Jesus forcing divorced people to suffer in today’s world, especially when the divorce is not their fault.
Well since you will not accept an argument in favor of using the annulment process…I guess there is nothing to say here…
  • Promulgates a guilt-mongering, fear-mongering system of mortal and venial sin, with the idea that if you do not confess mortal sins, you are guaranteed hell. This goes against John 3:16, which states that those who believe are given eternal life. I don’t see a loving Jesus sending people to hell in this way. Jesus never used guilt to win converts in the New Testament. People chose to believe because of the work of Jesus that they witnessed. Are people witnessing Jesus’ work in the Catholic Church, or rather, a symbol of hate, oppression, and irrelevance? One only needs to see the higher conversion growth rates of Protestantism to find out.
I was born and raised Catholic…left the Church for 35 years and then returned…I have seen many of the protestant conversions that you speak of and in many cases have witnessed how shallow they are and how quickly these converts fall away. So I am not particularly impressed with “conversion” numbers.
As for guilt and fear and such…Frankly I find little of that in the Churches teaching. Where one does see it - well - one has to more or less read “fear” into it. What it actually is, is straight talk. The kind you are using here. The kind that Jesus used when He spoke. The Kind St Paul used in his letters.

You mention confession as somehow a tool of this fear. Yet confession is a great gift and is not taught in the way that you suppose. This I suggest you spend a little time really learning what the sacrament of Reconciliation is as taught by the Church rather than how some want to describe it.
  • Promotes saint and Marian devotion at the expense of devotion to God.
Nope - never has the Church promoted anything at the expense of devotion to God.
You seem to be under the impression that our devotion to one somehow diminishes devotion to another…Love, which is our foundation, doesn’t work that way.
Those who have a devotion to Mary and / or some saint or saints have that devotion BECAUSE of their devotion to God and not as a substitute for it…
By doing this, the Catholic Church is hindering access to God directly.
HHmmmm…I’ve never felt hindered in my access to God and no Catholic that I have spoken with has felt that they were hindered in this way…
Jesus had access to God directly, and therefore a personal relationship to God. Why doesn’t the Catholic Church promote the same? Protestant churches do.
The Church DOES promote this personal relationship. I had a personal encounter with my Lord twice this weekend since I was blessed to receive Him, body blood soul and divinity, into my body through the Holy Mass. I speak with Him daily , along with My heavenly Father.

(Cont)
 
  • Takes an active hand in the colonization of Spanish America. Took an active hand in wars and politics of Europe. Continuing to meddle in politics today. This is empire building, which Jesus never did. Jesus never said we should meddle in politics.
You are right - Jesus never said much about politics except maybe in the “render unto Caesar…” comment. However, did Jesus tell us to stay out of politics? Catholics, like every other person in a democracy is asked to vote. Like every other person we are free to vote as we believe. As Catholics we should believe certain things. Should we not vote our beliefs?
As for the institutional Church and politics in historical Europe - that is a highly complex subject and we could spend much time discussing it. Roughly, the Church became involved in Civil politics at the fall of the Western Roman Empire. She continued her role for several centuries…some aspects of this are not stellar…but one also needs to take these things in the proper context in order to fully appreciate them.
As I said - it is a complicated subject.

But just as a point of order…You are aware aren’t you that the Protestant Churches were just as involved in the colonization of the New World as was the Catholic Church. The U.S. was populated primarily by protestants as it marched it’s way across the continent - pushing aside and killing the native peoples.
How well did protestant England treat the natives of India, or the protestant Dutch treat the natives in the Dutch east Indies?
In this - there is plenty of guilt to go around - and also a good opportunity to recognize the need to really examine history more fully and within context.

(Cont)
 
No, for these reasons and others, I, along with billions of others, cannot trust the Magisterium. I, along with billions of others, do not see Jesus in the Magisterium. It is clear the Magisterium has lost its way, and that the only churches that are picking up the slack, if any, are Protestant churches.
Well - I hope you are happy in your choice. I wish you luck as you try to pick you way through all of the permutations and contradictions among the hundreds of different protestant viewpoints and historical difficulties.
Jesus foresaw today’s world and I believe Jesus would adapt his teachings to be relevant to the modern world, in the same way that Paul adapted the Gospel to make it relevant to different nations he traveled to.
OK - you believe this…But are you positive of it? Are you certain that this belief of yours is from the Holy Spirit or from some other - less holy - spirit? how are you going to test the Spirit that is leading you in this way?

Magisterium means “teaching authority”. Paul says to test the Spirits. Jesus tells us to take difficult issues to the Church - and this is demonstrated in Acts.
So - What teaching authority - what Magisterium - will you use where will you place your trust to ensure that you have properly tested the spirit leading you?
Which of the many “teaching authorities” (Lutheranism, Calvinism, Arminianism, Universalism, Millenialism, OSAS, Mormonism, JW, etc) will you choose to be your guide?
Or perhaps - since in all of these you will find error and sinful individuals - perhaps you will decide to be your own personal magisterium…something which is not to be found in Scripture.

May God Guide you safely Home.

Peace
James
 
  • Sola Scriptura is true
Sola scriptura is not enough, for it is but the written word of God.
Catholics have the Word of God himself, His teachings passed down complete through the Church- from Peter to us in Holy Tradition.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1:1

PS. Sola scriptura is incomplete;
For Jesus also did " … … many other things … ; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written."
 
If Catholics can interpret passages of the Bible loosely to conclude that:
  • Purgatory exists
  • One must confess sins to a priest
  • There exist mortal and venial sin
  • Praying to saints is okay and God is pleased with it
  • Mary has a high position
  • Abortion is a grave evil
  • Contraception is a grave evil
  • Homosexual sex is a sin
  • Tradition must be followed
  • The Eucharist is the Real Presence
  • The Bible is not the only authority and the Church is the pillar of the Truth
  • Peter is the Rock on which the Church stands, and Rome is primary and infallible in areas of faith and morals
Then why can’t Protestants interpret passages of the Bible loosely to conclude that:
  • Sola Scriptura is true
  • Purgatory does not exist
  • Prayers should be sent to God only
  • Confessions should be sent to God only
  • Mary does not have a high position
  • Homosexuality is not a sin; rather, temple prostitution and pederasty were being referred to
  • There is nothing banning contraception
  • Drinking alcohol is a sin
  • Smoking tobacco is a sin
  • Certain forms of dancing are sins
  • Having statutes in church is idolatry
  • It is not necessary to adhere to all Holy Tradition, and the Gospel can and should be adapted to be relevant to people of all cultures and times, for evangelization purposes
  • The Eucharist is symbolic
  • Jesus is the Rock on which the Church stands, and therefore Rome is not primary
Can someone help? If you say the Magisterium helps us, then why should we continue to trust the Magisterium in the face of continuing Catholic Church scandal?
Catholics do not believe that Scripture is undeniably clear as some protestants do. The Bible can be confusing and it can, perhaps easily, be wrongly interpreted.** THAT is precisely the reason why we NEED a Church, that is guided by the Holy Spirit, with authority given by God to interpret Sacred Scripture, so we can know what is actually true!** God would not leave us with only a set of vague, unclear, infallible books to guide us.(not intending to belittle Sacred Scripture in any way) He gave us the Catholic Church to guide us! However, I think the Bible is clear in the passages where Jesus gives the Church authority.(What else could the power to bind and loose mean? Matthew 16:18-19)

Another thing about the Bible: Where did the list of scriptures come from? Who originally declared these specific writings to be infallible? The Catholic Council of Carthage did, confirmed by the Pope. (catholic.com/quickquestions/did-the-council-of-carthage-select-only-the-books-of-the-new-testament-for-the-canon) How do protestants know which books are infallible? They take the Catholic Church’s word for it on most, and take Luther’s word for it on the exclusion of some. Or perhaps you could say they take the word of the general Protestant community for it or the word of promminent Protestant figures. I highly doubt any of them do their own research and decide on what scriptures are infallible for themselves. If they did, what would their criteria be to decide which books are, and which books are not, infallible? And on what basis would that criteria be made?

As to your question on scandal:
We must remember that clergymen are still human. They are not infallible in every way, at every time. Bishops are infallible on matters of faith and morals collectively in counsels and Popes are infallible on matters of faith and morals when they speak “ex-cathedra”. Priests don’t have infallibility. How can we trust those clergy who do terribly immoral things? Short answer: in most cases, don’t trust them. If it’s a priest, move to another parish that is run by someone who actually follows The Lord. If it’s a bishop or Pope, don’t listen to him unless he speaks infallibly(as explained above), although I don’t believe bad Popes(I’m thinking Renaissance) have ever cared enough about the Faith to say anything ex-cathedra. But in all cases: PRAY for them. They are human too and can suffer the same temptations we do.

There have pretty much always been bad priests here or there, but the media just likes to point them out nowadays. There are plenty of good ones who just never make the news. Just avoid the bad ones and pray for them. By the way, the bad ones are the ones who are **not **in accordance with Church teaching. Pedophilia is a grave sin, and the Church has infallibly declared that.(I’m assuming that’s the kind of scandal you are referring to).

As for matters of doctrine, here’s a good rule of thumb: Look to the official Church teachings to find out what is definitely true, don’t look to specific individual clergy, except when the Pope says something ex-cathedra. If a priest says something that sound’s fishy, look it up online, find the official Magisterium position. The Holy Spirit guides the Church so that nothing untrue will be said ex-cathedra or in counsels.

Good priests usually shouldn’t be saying anything new, but just reiterating Church teaching, or looking at it from a different angle, or putting it in a new perspective. In homilies, they usually just put a personal touch on some official objective rules of God and the Church, and relate it to the day’s Scripture readings. They also provide advice on how to follow the Church teachings that are already set in place.
It is not necessary to adhere to all Holy Tradition, and the Gospel can and should be adapted to be relevant to people of all cultures and times, for evangelization purposes
FYI, I believe the Catholic missionaries have historically been the ones who didn’t try to “westernize” people of different cultures while teaching them the Faith, as opposed to Protestants. I’m not sure if that’s exactly what you are referring to here, but it’s food for thought.
 
A lot of you have given reasons why we should trust the Magisterium. But I cannot trust a Magisterium that:…

SNIP
Don’t know if you realize this or not…but if you decide you cannot trust the Magisterium (for many many reasons) then you cannot trust the Bible.

The Magisterium of the Catholic Church is the one who compiled the canon of the Bible as it exists today.

If the magisterium is wrong in some things - then you can have no confidence in anything…Therefore the validity of the bible comes into question.

Many try to separate this…but those who do would be be makinga very weeak argument…

Peace
James
 
There was a lot of meat posted here and not much I can add, but there is one point that I think is important based on the conversations on the first page of this post.

Just as another member pointed out, you can hurl bible verses at each other all day, but the moment the Catholic accepts this mode of determining doctrinal truth, he is accepting a presupposition that he doesn’t really accept, that is “sola scriptura.”

All of the doctrinal issues are really predicated upon this issue.
 
Catholic teaching is very cohesive. After reading a good book on Catholic apologetics (perhaps a few times), it becomes apparent that the Catholic Church’s teaching is guided by the Holy Spirit. It is profound, Traditional, consistent, and conducive to that perfection to which we are called. One prime example is the doctrine of Transubstantiation. The Eucharist nourished the saints; it was, for them, a source of many graces; but if Our Lord is not truly present in the Eucharist, the Church Fathers got it seriously wrong! Furthermore, many saints died in vain; the saints were really “idolaters” etc. Such claims have serious (and contradictory)consequences.
 
There was a lot of meat posted here and not much I can add, but there is one point that I think is important based on the conversations on the first page of this post.

Just as another member pointed out, you can hurl bible verses at each other all day, but the moment the Catholic accepts this mode of determining doctrinal truth, he is accepting a presupposition that he doesn’t really accept, that is "sola scriptura."

All of the doctrinal issues are really predicated upon this issue.
Welcome to the forums.

This is quite true…Yet at the same time, when one is talking with a protestant, it is good to use scripture as much as possible in order to demonstrate that (unlike some protestants believe) the Catholic Church does not ignore Scripture and that much of the teachings are firmly grounded there.
Once the other person can start to see that Catholic teaching has a firm foundation in and respect for Scripture, then they are ready to look at Catholic teaching in a new light.

So while I 100% agree that “hurling bible verses” can be a waste of time, having a solid conversation on the Scriptures is not. It would hopefully be the first step in a long and fruitful conversation about all things Catholic.

Peace
James
 
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