If Christians believe abortion is virtually morally equivalent to murder, why do we react to them differently in the US?

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Yes, I think it is clear that the Church does NOT in fact equate abortion with murder because its reaction to each event is entirely opposite.
We know the Church would say that you have committed a very serious sin if you were to bomb an abortion clinic or kill an abortionist. But if you were to stop someone from attacking and killing another person, the Church would probably commend you for stoping a terrible crime.
I suppose it would be like comparing different mortal sins. Murder, adultery and assaults are treated much more seriously than missing mass or speeding or stealing large sums from the poor. They may all get you to condemned if unconfessed or serious time in Purgatory, but the degree of punishement or restitution needed for each is probably very different for the more radical offenses.
If this is the case, then all Pro-Life people are in the wrong if they are working to ban legal abortion. After all if abortion is just a lesser mortal sin equaling less than manslaughter then banning abortion will only bring forth a more dangerous environment for women who want to terminate their fetus. If the degree of the mortal sin of abortion is less than that of murder or manslaughter then as Catholics we should never fight against over turning legalized abortion since it provides a safe environment for committing this sin.

Also this means that the Catholic Church views the human embryo as less human than a full grown adult…

You would do everything in your power to try and save a born human; even to the point of violence against the murderer. What this implies can only be that the Church’s stance places Human Embryos as sub-human; something that is allowed to be terminated without the risk of righteous retribution.
 
Apparently, you are in the minority 🤷
Is Chris in the minority because he is arguing on this thread unsupported, or is he in the minority because most people, Catholics included, don’t really give a hoot about abortions? On the other hand, would it matter if he were indeed in the minority? Chris raised two scenarios. Three if we count the Just War doctrine. The latter usually refers to the leaders of a Civil Society when they are embarking on deliberations pertaining to the security of a State. However, the United States does have a history of one section of society decreeing that another section of society was wrong on a certain issue and so a War was waged. Now if all Catholics made a similar decision and so decreed…

Chris’s other two scenarios are indeed morally equivalent. If a new human life starts at conception, then that life should be subject to the same protection provisions of the Law as any other life. However, the state has interfered and given the mother the right to decide whether or not the unborn child should live or die. That unborn child cannot speak for itself. In the case of a person faced with imminent demise at the hands of another, it is assumed that that person does not wish to die at the hands of another. We are indeed morally obligated to intervene. We are morally obligated according to Natural Law principles of Justice and these are enshrined in the Catechism. However, we are not legally obligated. Therein lies a great distinction that most posters on this thread have failed to reconcile. The difference between a legal obligation and a moral obligation. Chris is focusing on the latter, yet most of the answers directed aginst him fall back onto quoting what is legal. Man made positive law does not necessarily follow principles of morality. Once upon a time it did and Natural Law and the Positive Law were almost indistinguishable. That began to unravel at about the time of the rise of utilitarianism in the 18th Century.

The fact that the Natural Law and man made positive law have diverged does not alter the essential arguments which surround moral issues. There have been many instances during the past century of this divergence between morality and the law. The rise of Nazi germany and Hitler’s decrees are an example. The rise of Stalin in pre-war Russia and his decrees regarding the peasants of the Ukraine are another. Hitler and Stalin had behind them the full coercive powers of the state to enforce their laws and decrees. Yet people resisted. Sometimes they resisted passively and sometimes some resisted by resorting to killing, so great was the moral turpitude they faced. After the War, the Nuremburg trials used Natural Law principles to condemn the Nazis and praise those who resisted. Today, some are resisting the abortion epidemic passively. As we see on this thread, that passive resistance is supported by others, who, at the same time, state that more active means of resistance are “evil”, but their basis for saying so is because the more active forms of resistance are illegal. That is not answering the question as posed by Chris. Illegality and the moral rightness or wrongness of an action are different issues, as we have seen. The right to an abortion is decidedly utilitarian. It is the antithesis of Natural Law morality, upon which the Catholic Church is predicated. Those who say they are Catholics and accept the Natural Law moral teachings of the Church and yet state they are OK with abortion because it is the law of the land are guilty of situational ethics. They are creating an intellectual, philosophical and moral dissonance between the ideal of Natural Law morality, with its view that life is sacred, which they accept as per their membership of the Catholic Church and their acceptance of the Utilitarian morality of abortion on demand as the ‘right’ of a pregnant woman. The dichotomy is obvious.

Historically, Natural Law has maintained that each man wishes to preserve his own life. Yet, with the abortion issue, it is considered by the state that a mother has the right to speak on behalf of her unborn foetus and so a “class” of persons is denied the basic Natural Law assumption of a desire to live. Is it simply a case of moral cowardice that causes people to allow the abortion issue to remain only passively challenged whilst voicing opinions about its ‘wrongness’? If their is a moral imperative to protect life, then why isn’t that imperative followed by the opponents of abortion? Is it simply because they fear the coercive powers of the state should laws be broken while trying to prevent the killing of innocents?

I am currently reading a book called Bloodlands:Europe between Hitler and Stalin, by Yale History Professor Timothy Snyder. In it he details the Collectivisation of Ukrainian farms by Stalin, the failure of which led to the starvation of millions of Ukrainian peasants. It is striking that in the name of “socialism” ordinary people suspended their moral judgements to rationalise away the deaths by hunger of neighbours, friends and family. Situational ethics writ large. In the finish, people suspended even basic common sense as they rationalised away the dreadful outcome of Stalins pogroms. Starving peasants in possession of any food items were deemed to have stolen it from the state and therefore were enemies of the state. The pertinant point is not the Ukrainian tradgedy per se, but the willingness of individuals to suspend moral judgement when the coercive powers of the state may arraign against them.
 
Is Chris in the minority because he is arguing on this thread unsupported, or is he in the minority because most people, Catholics included, don’t really give a hoot about abortions?
He’s in the minority to think that one should, or even can, physically restrain a woman who intends to get an abortion. The Church does not compell us to commit an evil to deal with another evil.
 
He’s in the minority to think that one should, or even can, physically restrain a woman who intends to get an abortion. The Church does not compell us to commit an evil to deal with another evil.
The main point of my post wasn’t the Catholic Church. Have another read. And slower this time!
 
The main point of my post wasn’t the Catholic Church. Have another read. And slower this time!
In your response to my post, you asked why I said he was in the minority. I answered why I said he was in the minority. 🤷
 
She has autonomy and rights over her own personhood and that includes reproduction.
Yeah, right. Pretty much only in the case of abortion.

If we as people had a “right” over our own personhood,
  1. we would be allowed to commit suicide without government involvement,
  2. there would be no 21 year old drinking age,
  3. we wouldn’t be forced to buy health insurance.
It’s funny how some say “it’s her body, medical decisions should be between her and her doctor and the govt. shouldn’t be involved”…but yet…they have no problem forcing her to buy health insurance…

Such hypocracy…
 
In your response to my post, you asked why I said he was in the minority. I answered why I said he was in the minority. 🤷
I actually asked three questions pertaining to Chris. Two you ignored. The analogy about restraining a woman was just one small part of his entire argument and your answer to that is all you can defend?!

Those three questions took up a whole three sentences and the rest of my post was about something else. Which you answered by saying about the Church -
He’s in the minority to think that one should, or even can, physically restrain a woman who intends to get an abortion. The Church does not compell us to commit an evil to deal with another evil.
Again, I wasn’t making any point about the Church’s powers of compulsion, whatever they are, nor about doing “evil”. Like I said, read slower…
 
We live in a thoroughly hedonistic society. Women want the right to control their bodies. They don’t seem to want the right to control their bodies to the point of not getting pregnant outside of wedlock. They also don’t want the right to control the consequences of getting pregnant, which is to rear their own child. Rather, they want the right to kill their child before it is born. That’s the only right they’re really talking about.

Oh, there’s one other right at stake here. Gosh, how did they forget about it? The right to life, without which all other rights could not exist.
 
I’m still waiting to hear why the Church would condemn you for killing an abortionist in the act, but would praise you for killing any other kind of murderer. Thus far the only logical explanation is at the end of the day the Church doesn’t view the human fetus as an equal to a life already born.
 
flavius

but would praise you for killing any other kind of murderer

What other kind of murderer does the Church praise us for killing?
 
but would praise you for killing any other kind of murderer
What other kind of murderer does the Church praise us for killing?
ANY kind other than abortionists apparently.

If a man breaks into your home with a gun to your child’s head taking his life would be acceptable.

If you see in a dark alley a person with a knife to another person’s throat and you stabbed the attacker from behind, you’d be lauded as a hero.

However if you stop a conspiracy between a ‘mother’ and an abortionist by killing the one attempting to poison the fetus from inside the womb then the Church stands alongside the rest of the maggot infested world and shakes it’s head at you.

It’s hypocrisy that stopping the murder of born individuals through death is acceptable but because the secular civilized world tells the Church that it’s OK to kill a human fetus the Church simply sits on its hands and damns those who take up violent retribution against abortionists.

I know this is probably putting me in support of the same people who bomb abortion clinics and who killed Tiller, but quite honestly at least they were not Two-faced about their support of unborn life.
 
I’m still waiting to hear why the Church would condemn you for killing an abortionist in the act, but would praise you for killing any other kind of murderer. Thus far the only logical explanation is at the end of the day the Church doesn’t view the human fetus as an equal to a life already born.
That’s been answered a few times. The reason why the Church would condemn one for killing an abortionist in the act is because you would be committing an evil in order to prevent another evil. Abortion, whether one agrees with it or not, is a legal right. If it weren’t a legal right, interrupting and detaining an abortionist would be the same as interrupting and detaining any other criminal in the act of committing a crime. Whether one agrees with it or not, an abortionist, as well as the woman seeking an abortion, are not committing crimes. They are acting with the law, in licensed facilities. I’m sure this is not the answer you would like. But the fact is, if and until abortion ever became illegal, one could be within the teachings of the Church by interrupting and detaining an abortionist. But as long as it’s legal, and women have the right to have one, and licensed physicians have the right to do them, you can’t physically stop them. If you want the ability to physically detain women from having abortions, and physically detain doctors from performing them, then spend your energy trying to make it illegal. Rather than waste your time violating the law and giving a bad name to pro-lifers.
 
flavius

**If a man breaks into your home with a gun to your child’s head taking his life would be acceptable.

If you see in a dark alley a person with a knife to another person’s throat and you stabbed the attacker from behind, you’d be lauded as a hero.**

You have strange notions of what constitutes murder. 🤷
 
You have strange notions of what constitutes murder.
The POINT was that these cases and the case of killing an abortionist in the act of performing an abortion are exactly the same.

But in any case I got my answer, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.” and in this case I suppose if Caesar says human lives belong to him then we can only humbly offer him our unborn until he decides otherwise…
 
The POINT was that these cases and the case of killing an abortionist in the act of performing an abortion are exactly the same.
But they’re not the same. It’s not me just saying that they’re not the same. The Church says they’re not the same as well. They’re different because the abortionist in the act of performing an abortion is not breaking the law, and is therefore not commiting an act of murder. Murder is unlawful killing.
But in any case I got my answer, “Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.” …
That’s right. But remember that you can always lobby to have the law changed.
 
So Human life belongs to the government then?
Civil laws belong to the government and civilians have the right to obey civil laws. Catholics have the right to obey Catholic laws. No one is marching Catholics (or anyone else for that matter) into abortion clinics. They are walking there on their own and asking for legal services. Therefore, a Catholic that has a problem with it isn’t within his or her rights to break another law in order to stop a legal medical procedure. However, they do have the right to lobby their law makers to change the law.
 
Ok, then why make it illegal? If killing a fetus is the personal choice of a Catholic or non-Catholic to make and it isn’t as important as stopping a murder of someone who is born then why not keep it as is?

Let those who wish to have the sin of innocent blood on their hands do so in a safer enviroment then say a unlicensed doctor in the slums. It isn’t as if abortion would stop even if we made it illegal.

The bottom line is, if at the end of the day it’s civil law that determines what is human then why ever fight against it?!

And I realize this runs well with Slavery as a parallel, but blood was split to end that idea that Blacks were below human and were allowed to be treated as property.

It started with people like John Brown and ended with the hundreds of thousands dead because of the Civil War.
 
Ok, then why make it illegal? If killing a fetus is the personal choice of a Catholic or non-Catholic to make and it isn’t as important as stopping a murder of someone who is born then why not keep it as is?.
Because if it is illegal, then you could physically restrain someone who performs abortions while they were in the act, or just before, they are commiting this crime. If it is illegal, then it wouldn’t be the personal choice of anyone, and would be against the law.
 
Ok I believe I understand well enough to accept this.

What helped is remembering that legal or not God still considers it a Sin worthy of Hell; if one is not truly repenting over what they have done. In a twist of my own logic, if God can welcome back a murderer who repents than the same is true for those who commit abortion.

Thank you Rence for having patience with me about this, it helped see why it’s ok to allow the Pro-life movement to act solely under legal grounds.
 
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