If Colorado is very liberal, then why is it a hotbed of Traditional Catholicism

[Pattylt]

As a resident of beautiful,Colorado since 1972,I wholeheartedly agree.It is truly God’s Country

I’m a resident since 1987 and I’ve lived in several states but Colorado is Home. Nowhere else is like it!

It’s a very mixed state, from fundamentalist headquarters in Colorado Springs to hippie haven in Boulder and everything in between…and we mostly tolerate each other very well!

 

[LisaB]

This was what I was getting at in my post above… so many on this forum seem to conflate traditional Catholicism and American conservatism…they…are…not…the…same. Americans have become so used to seeing the entire world through the left vs right, Democrat vs Republican, liberal vs conservative lens, that many see EVERYTHING through this lens. Yes, you can broadly speak of a “progressive” wing of the Church and a “traditionalist” wing of the Church…but it does not equate to the American “left vs right” divide…there is overlap, especially in the local context of the US, but the analogy starts to break down pretty quickly when you look at global Catholicism.

I’m guessing in the vast majority of cases, trads are politically conservative. Theologically conservative and politically conservative are of course different things but I can’t imagine there being too many trads out there who happen to be politically liberal.

 

[twf]

I’m guessing in the vast majority of cases, trads are politically conservative. Theologically conservative and politically conservative are of course different things but I can’t imagine there being too many trads out there who happen to be politically liberal.

But this goes back to what I was saying in my earlier posts. Its a false dichotomy. There is some overlap, of course, but political conservatism does not equate Catholic traditionalism. There are Catholic traditionalists in this world, for example, who find the very idea of a republic to be repugnant…the American Founding Fathers were, after all, the raging liberals of their day. Its all relative. If we’re talking about gun rights, and many American traditionalists do seem quite concerned with gun rights, based on what I see online, but I would say that’s because they are American conservatives, not because they are Catholic traditionalists…I doubt that issue is ever discussed here in Canada in traditionalist circles. On the other hand, if we’re talking about abortion, that is, of course, an issue that happens to overlap between Catholic orthodoxy and contemporary political conservatism.

Many Americans would describe my views, as a Canadian, as very “liberal” in regards to health care, immigration, multiculturalism, social security, gun rights etc. But I am also passionately pro-life, pro-monarchy, quite traditional in my liturgical views…

 

[Jbrady]

there is overlap, especially in the local context of the US, but the analogy starts to break down pretty quickly when you look at global Catholicism.

I’m guessing in the vast majority of cases, trads are politically conservative. Theologically conservative and politically conservative are of course different things but I can’t imagine there being too many trads out there who happen to be politically liberal.

It’s even more pronounced in Europe than in the US. In Europe, by far most Traditionalists strongly identify with far right and alt-right political nationalistic and xenophobic movements that many of their American counterparts would wince at. There isn’t much of the politically naive, “warm and fuzzy nostalgic” component of Traditionalism that you sometimes find in the States.

 

[Angannas]

You know, someone can be a theological conservative and a political liberal.

Like I am. A British Labour Party supporting theological conservative

 

[IanM]

It’s even more pronounced in Europe than in the US. In Europe, by far most Traditionalists strongly identify with far right and alt-right political nationalistic and xenophobic movements that many of their American counterparts would wince at. There isn’t much of the politically naive, “warm and fuzzy nostalgic” component of Traditionalism that you sometimes find in the States.

That is quite a statement to make. I trust you will now present the evidence to back this claim?

 

[Bithynian]

It has always bothered me that, at least on this forum and some other “online locales”, traditional Catholicism gets conflated with American conservatism.

(Note: I’m Australian and Catholic.)

The same happens with various Protestant/evangelical forums: a conflation of doctrine and American political positions.

Part of this is just due to the overall demographic of internet-savvy English speaking Christians (whether Catholic or Protestant): most happen to be American, and there tends to be an inadvertent echo chamber.

Taking Australia as a point of comparison, the most Catholic electorates - such as mine - overwhelmingly vote for the Labor Party (centre-left, somewhat equivalent to the US Democrats). At the same time, my electorate was amongst the few that voted against the legalisation of gay marriage.

 

[boclucky14]

While I don’t argue that this doesn’t exist, I would think being a leftist and any sort of faithful Catholic, would be a contradiction.

I would point out that liberalism and leftist are very different, and the democratic party is hard-core leftists at this point

 

[dscath]

Why should “liberal” politically equate to “traditional” in the Catholic sense?

Exactly!

I’m not sure when this all came about, but since the internet has replaced the soap box in public parks, “conservative” and “liberal” politics has now been used to be the litmus test for “traditional” in religion, and virtually every other topic.

Traditional Catholicism is as Catholic as post-V2 Catholicism, and has nothing to do with political ideology.

When we try to claim that to be a traditional Catholic (whatever that is) requires one being a political conservatism, we are cheapening the spiritual importance and relevance of Catholicism while advancing the political standing of Conservatism.

 

[Nicene]

We are traditional mainly due to the leadership of Archbishop Chaput. Great guy, very humble, very traditional. He brought the TLM to Colorado and brought in priests who follow the 62 missal in the NO.

Peace and God Bless
Nicene

 

[OraLabora]

Many Americans would describe my views, as a Canadian, as very “liberal” in regards to health care, immigration, multiculturalism, social security, gun rights etc. But I am also passionately pro-life, pro-monarchy, quite traditional in my liturgical views…

Birds of a feather! I’m also Canadian, monarchist (quite possibly the only monarchist of francophone Acadian descent in all of Québec), I believe in universal health care and am rabidly anti-abortion AND pro-life (they are not completely the same thing: I find many anti abortionists quite anti-life as well once past birth).

I consider myself big T Traditionalist in that I believe in the Apostolic Tradition of the Church, including her ability to regulate the liturgy through the Pope and magisterium, which is why I also follow the Benedictine tradition of support of whomever is Pope at any given time, and Vatican II. Liturgically I welcome the mass of Paul VI and the Liturgy of the Hours with open arms, but also favour incorporating traditions such as Gregorian chant. I in fact chant the LOTH in Gregorian chant daily.

Politically I am a pragmatist and centrist maybe ever so slightly to the right; ideological politics has no truck with me. I’ve voted for all three major parties at least once, based on leadership and program (NDP only once when I was young).

I too don’t get the automatic equating of traditionalism with political conservatism. In fact I consider anybody who rejects Vatican II and the Church’s ability to regulate her liturgy as anything but Traditionalist. They are in fact rebellious reactionaries who have rejected the fundamental necessity of accepting Tradition through Apostolic succession. It is one major thing that fundamentally distinguishes us from Protestantism. The SSPX is the poster child for this rejection, and is why I will have nothing to do with them.

 

[TheLittleLady]

I prefer not to give my home town out in a public message board. We are a small Diocese that covers an area where Catholics make up 8% of the population, in the Bible Belt.

 

[Michaelangelo]

[I consider myself big T Traditionalist in that I believe in the Apostolic Tradition of the Church, including her ability to regulate the liturgy through the Pope and magisterium, which is why I also follow the Benedictine tradition of support of whomever is Pope at any given time, and Vatican II. Liturgically I welcome the mass of Paul VI and the Liturgy of the Hours with open arms, but also favour incorporating traditions such as Gregorian chant. I in fact chant the LOTH in Gregorian chant daily.

That was a spot on description of me back in the day.

 

[Glennon_P]

It’s a very mixed state, from fundamentalist headquarters in Colorado Springs to hippie haven in Boulder and everything in between…and we mostly tolerate each other very well!

That’s been my impression of Colorado as well.

Eclectic mix of environmentalists and outdoor enthusiasts, hybrid cars and four-wheel-drive pickups, fundamentalist Christians and atheists, conservative farmers and ranchers and flower children, packing plants and vegans…you name it, Colorado seems to have it.

 

[phil19034]

Because of Divine Will.

When Pope John Paul II was bringing World Youth Day to the United States, he chose Denver over all the objections of the United States bishops. The Cardinals and USCCB wanted a city like NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, etc. One with a large Catholic presence.

They objected to Denver because it had a very tiny Catholic presence.

But Pope John Paul II wanted & insisted on Denver because he felt that a Western city of the United States would become the focus of new spring of great Catholic thought, catechesis, etc.

MANY orthodox Catholics who attended World Youth Day in Denver are now running many of the best Catholic apostolates in the United States.

A major tech city, with a tiny Catholic presence (like Denver) was a lot easier for an orthodox bishop (like Archbishop Chaput and Archbishop Aquila) to affect change and really make a great diocese & hot bed for Catholic Thought.

That is exactly what Archbishop Chaput did in all his time in Denver. He was able to bring top Catholic thinkers from all over to build a new seminary, the Augustine Institute, etc. Plus, many of his former employees for the Archdiocese of Denver (like Chris Stefanick) were able to create many other organizations, which Archbishop Chaput blessed & endorsed.

Archbishop Chaput also brought the FSSP to Denver. And later, one of his priests (Archbishop Aquila) was appointed to keep all the good things Archbishop Chaput put into place going.

From:

• Augustine Institute
• FOCUS
• Real Life Catholic
• Denver Catholic Biblical School
• Camp Wojtyla
• Christ In The City << Denver is the first city and HQ
• plus many more…
  Denver is now home to many of the BEST Catholic think tanks in the US.

St. John Paul II saw that Denver was a prime location for an orthodox Catholic renewal & to become the center of the New Evangelization. And let’s be honest, anywhere a number of orthodox Catholics gather (even if they all prefer the Ordinary Form), the Extraordinary Form is going to be welcomed.

NOTE: Dr. Tim Gray, President of the Augustine Institute tells this story of St. John Paul II & Denver very well. If I can find an online video of his talk about St JP2 and Denver, I’ll post it.

God Bless

 

[phil19034]

twf:

It has always bothered me that, at least on this forum and some other “online locales”, traditional Catholicism gets conflated with American conservatism.

(Note: I’m Australian and Catholic.)

The same happens with various Protestant/evangelical forums: a conflation of doctrine and American political positions.

Part of this is just due to the overall demographic of internet-savvy English speaking Christians (whether Catholic or Protestant): most happen to be American, and there tends to be an inadvertent echo chamber.

Taking Australia as a point of comparison, the most Catholic electorates - such as mine - overwhelmingly vote for the Labor Party (centre-left, somewhat equivalent to the US Democrats). At the same time, my electorate was amongst the few that voted against the legalisation of gay marriage.

As an American, really the issue is that in the United States, we only have two major parties. Republican vs Democrat.

While the two parties do have subgroups, most people adopt the mindset of the party leaders.

So for American conservatives, being liberal almost automatically means being pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-modernist religion, etc. While American liberals see conservatives as almost automatically anti-poor, anti-immigrant, pro-corporations, pro-war, blah, blah, blah

So for American Catholics, it’s hard for us to seperate the negative aspects of each party from the Catholic members of each party.

If we had multiple, VIABLE parties, things might be a little healthier. But the US has never had a viable, multi-party system and I don’t see one happening.

God Bless

 

[Jbrady]

If we had multiple, VIABLE parties, things might be a little healthier. But the US has never had a viable, multi-party system and I don’t see one happening.

Like I said above, Traditionalist Cathocism is much more aligned with far right political movements than in the US, in spite of the fact that they have viable multi-party systems.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

If we had multiple, VIABLE parties, things might be a little healthier. But the US has never had a viable, multi-party system and I don’t see one happening.

Like I said above, Traditionalist Cathocism is much more aligned with far right political movements than in the US, in spite of the fact that they have viable multi-party systems.

I don’t think this is true at all. I serious doubt FSSP priests and the people who attend FSSP parishes are this way in Europe. Sure, you might have some individual lay persons who are like this, but the overlay people who attend FSSP parishes, I seriously doubt it.

Maybe SSPX or schematics are, but I seriously doubt FSSP and Institute of Christ the King parishes are this way.

 

[Pattylt]

Archbishop Chaput

He was greatly respected among non Catholics in the state. He had detractors as well…we are an eclectic mix…but in general, leaders from all over the state that met and interacted with him were highly impressed!

 

[John_Martin]

I believe the cultures of the world have convinced the Catholics here to have forgotten that “Catholic” is a Nationality and to forget that you are sojourners in their states and lands where you today find yourselves.

It is those in the world AND of the world who are liberal or conservative and you Catholics are looking at them from outside their liberalism and conservatism - you don’t fit because you are NOT of the world (even though in the world to enlighten and preserve [salt] it and even though you find the sceneries beautiful).

You are traditional in your Catholicism, not Coloradans. You are citizens of the Kingdom established by Heaven, traveling in Colorado and in other states and in other lands.