If conservatives have a “darker” view of human nature, why do they think poor people should rely on charity instead of the government?

[Swiss_Guy]

The British National Health Service which is free to all at the point of delivery was founded in 1948 and is something that we are all very proud of. The State Retirement Pension which was originally put into payment is payable to all retired workers and was originally instituted in 1908 and we are also very happy with that principle too. I see no reason to dismantle any of these systems in order to placate the right wing

But do those constitute a welfare state? I’d consider a welfare state more like Sweden or a system like this.

 

[Jimmygill88]

But do those constitute a welfare state? I’d consider a welfare state more like Sweden or a system like this.

In common with Sweden the UK has Unemployment and Illness benefits based on need. Business and Right Wing politicians in the UK loathe all aspects of welfare apart from the Working Tax Credit scheme. This scheme allows big business to pay the bare minimum to workers who can ask for a state subsidy because their wages are too low. The conservatives are curiously quiet on that.

 

[DavidWJackson]

God gave us the poor to help us learn to be a charitable people. Nations will be judged on their charitabillity. When I question why we in the U.S. give so much of our tax dollars to countries that hate us and would like to see us all dead, I remember what the Lord said about giving to the ones you love and not giving to your enemy. There is no marit in that type of giving. No self sacrafice. A poor person who will allways be poor and dependent upon our charity, no matter what opportunities they are given, may be that way because, they were predestined by God to test our generosity. Would you like to be a person predestined by God to test your fellowmans generosity? What would it be like to be poor, ignored, suffering and mocked? Christ can one day tell you. If you meet Him.

 

[Bill_7154]

I do not support a system that enables a multi millionaire to pay proportionally less tax than the people who clean his house, simply because his accountants know how to dodge the law. Nor do I support a system that drives down wages for the poorest workers in order to maximise profits for shareholders. A conservative would see government intervention to ensure the less well off have food shelter and healthcare as big government and God forbid SOCIALISM. Jesus said the poor you have always. However he did not say let them starve to death. I do think there is an inbuilt unfairness in the capitalist system. As the system is run by banks and big business then maybe they should take the responsibly for the maintainance of the poor? To pay low wages while making big profits is (according to the catechism I know) depriving ‘Labourer of their JUST reward’ and one of the sins ‘crying out to heaven for vengeance’

Nice dodge.

BTW, who do you think owns the government? Poor people? Rich people own the government and they use it to do their own bidding. It’s a game. Conservatives and Liberals are pitted against one another and go back and forth arguing about what is the best way for the government to do things.

Meanwhile, the rich who actually control the government have already decided exactly how the government will do things.

Who do you think get’s liberal candidates faces on TV so they have the chance to get elected? Poor people? I think it’s rich people. And unless you show me a candidate whose rich backers donate a significant ammt of their own personal wealth to charities I will continue to assume they have their own financial interests at heart when they back a liberal. And will continue to assume that should that liberal get elected he is in the pocket of the rich people who got him there.

 

[Bill_7154]

Would you trade places with a single mother on welfare living in cockroach infested slum?

Probably not because you will have even less than you do now. You blame the welfare system for being unable to give your family the life you want. You need more training or education and you can get a better job. Welfare is not the cause of your problems your job is. As working poor, you can receive a free education from the Federal government through the Department of Ed. I’m getting one now. If you meet income and family size guidelines you can get a Pell grant that will pay for tuition at just about any community college or tech school. www.fafsa.ed.gov with a certificate in your chosen field, you can get a higher paying job. Government funding is here for you too. You pay your taxes, use the system as much as you can. Just try to do all you can instead of playing the blame game

I dont’ ‘blame’ the welfare system. I pointed out in a couple of posts that the welfare system hurts working poor people, including myself. This is factual information.

Since I have re-discovered my faith this is actually part of a longer term plan for myself and my family. However, since I have PTSD and more than my share of problems in managing life on a day to day basis, as I have had my whole life. Working full time and going to school will be quite a challenge. I realize that I will be eligible for grants and have already looked into the highest paying jobs that one can get with an AA degree (I would basically double my income with one of the highest paying ones).

So I have my work cut out for me. Thankfully I have God and my faith now to help, but I have a major mental illness that comes with a variety of things that essentially make what are for most poeple simple day to day handling of their affairs/life, very very difficult for me.

Accusing me of playing the blame game is unfair IMO. I got angry in response of a post or 2 singing the praises of the welfare system. I am mainly against the welfare system because I believe it hurts the people it serves. They are my clients, I have intimite knowlege of government entitlement programs and how they incentivize people to stagnate and disincentivize them to become more self sufficient.

I consider myself fortuante to have a full time job and to have been able to keep one for the past 20 years. I used to be homeless and had the option back then to get on the dole, I choose to engage in habilitation. Over the past 3 years my mental health has been deteriorating, leaving me with an even greater challenge when it comes to being successful with college (last year my company recommended I apply for long term disability as they saw my work deteriorating and increasing difficulty I was having at work after being an excellent employee for the first 15 years there). They said if I wrote a letter about my problems and got my doctor to write one saying I coudn’t work for at least 3 months, they would also write a letter to the insurance company that oversees long term disability for the company I work for, essentially supporting this. They explained they wanted to help me as I have been a very vaulable employee for 15 years, and I could come back in the future if I could get myself together, etc…

Because of my illness I was too afraid to ask my doctor about this. I also don’t want to be disabled. Unfortunately I have received several verbal warnings since then.

So, just like the answer to my problems are education, so is that for all the welfare recipients, correct? However, I need to work full time and also attend college. All the welfare recipients have to do is go to college instead of watching TV all day.

I have a terrible memory so have not been following who is on what side of the welfare issue. If you are in support of welfare, etc…if you are a liberal…do you advocate the same thing to welfare recipients (in all it’s various forms) as you are doing with me? Do you believe that all those who collect SSI, SSDI, Welfare, Section 8 housing subsidies, etc should all be going to school/job training as an answer to their problems? Do you support changes in current policy to require people who receive government money to participate in job training or education in order for them to receive the taxes from other people that they live off of?

I certainly hope so or it seems to me your using a double standard.

 

[Bill_7154]

God gave us the poor to help us learn to be a charitable people. Nations will be judged on their charitabillity. When I question why we in the U.S. give so much of our tax dollars to countries that hate us and would like to see us all dead, I remember what the Lord said about giving to the ones you love and not giving to your enemy. There is no marit in that type of giving. No self sacrafice. A poor person who will allways be poor and dependent upon our charity, no matter what opportunities they are given, may be that way because, they were predestined by God to test our generosity. Would you like to be a person predestined by God to test your fellowmans generosity? What would it be like to be poor, ignored, suffering and mocked? Christ can one day tell you. If you meet Him.

It is not fun to be poor. It is not fun to have mental and emotional problems. It is certainly not fun to be mocked for them. You make a good point about our tax dollars going to countries that hate us.

I, personally, would like to see government shrink so that charitible people are able to use more of their resources to help the poor through private charities which must compete against one another (unlike government) and are therefore more effective. They are also committed to actually helping the people they claim they want to help, having their hearts in their work much moreso than government.