T
truetofaith
Guest
You should ask a saint or the Blessed Mother to pray for you to Jesus…just like you would ask a friend on earth. I usually go directly to the Lord, Himself! 
If demons cannot read our thoughts, how do Angels and Saints hear our silent prayers?
- Status
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
I not only believe that Satan can know our thoughts, but that he can tempt us by implanting thoughts, directing our desire and placing us under a spell.
LOVE!
LOVE!
T
truetofaith
Guest
I agree with “tempt us by implanting thoughts,” & “directing our desire” but not with knowing or putting us under a spell.I not only believe that Satan can know our thoughts, but that he can tempt us by implanting thoughts, directing our desire and placing us under a spell.
LOVE!
Satan tempted Jesus but I doubt he knew His thoughts. People’s actions are very revealing as to what they are thinking…especially to the devil.
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
See this link for a poll that I did plus the discussion.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=865349
:LOVE!
B
boomerang
Guest
I have great respect for Fr. Fortea, but does he realize how incredibly contradictory this quotation is?
So, Fr. Fortea, demons can indeed “read our thoughts”, just as I suspected.
T
tdgesq
Guest
Sorry about that. I had a meeting last night and couldn’t get around to responding until now.
Aquinas writes that the angels do not know the secret thoughts of men, as this is known to God alone. In other words, only God knows the interior will of this or that particular man. The angels, and thus the demons as well, by nature have a vastly higher intellect than man. So where a man might be able to roughly ascertain the thoughts of another man by observing his behavior, angels have a much greater ability to do the same:
I answer that, A secret thought can be known in two ways: first, in its effect. In this way it can be known not only by an angel, but also by man; and with so much the greater subtlety according as the effect is the more hidden. For thought is sometimes discovered not merely by outward act, but also by change of countenance; and doctors can tell some passions of the soul by the mere pulse. Much more then can angels, or even demons, the more deeply they penetrate those occult bodily modifications. Hence Augustine says (De divin. daemon.) that demons “sometimes with the greatest faculty learn man’s dispositions, not only when expressed by speech, but even when conceived in thought, when the soul expresses them by certain signs in the body”; although (Retract. ii, 30) he says “it cannot be asserted how this is done.”
In another way thoughts can be known as they are in the mind, and affections as they are in the will: and thus God alone can know the thoughts of hearts and affections of wills. The reason of this is, because the rational creature is subject to God only, and He alone can work in it Who is its principal object and last end: this will be developed later (63, 1; 105, 5). Consequently all that is in the will, and all things that depend only on the will, are known to God alone. newadvent.org/summa/1057.htm#article4
As stated in my previous post, God can impart Divine knowledge to the angels; which could include the interior thoughts of men. What God chooses to impart to the demons is limited, and then only through secondary means such as through other angels. Point being that neither the angels nor the demons can “read our minds.” Only God can do that.
B
bre
Guest
Lord, hear our prayers
B
bre
Guest
God bless
C
Cathoholic
Guest
boomerang. You said in post 24:
QUOTE:
I have great respect for Fr. Fortea, but does he realize how incredibly contradictory this quotation is?
Fr. Fortea is not contradicting himself.
To contradict yourself you must be using the subject in the same sense.
Fallen spirits cannot read our thoughts. Fr. Fortea is correct.
Heavenly spirits MAY not on their own accord read our thoughts . . . .but MAY be privy to our thoughts because God clues them in. Fr. Fortea is also correct on this point (but assumes we know the distinctions).
Let’s look at St. Thomas Aquinas (as tdgesq linked to) . . . (this concerns knowledge of future events but the same principle applies) . . .
QUOTE:
Reply to Objection 1. Men cannot know future things except in their causes, or by God’s revelation. The angels know the future in the same way, but much more distinctly.
For example:
Only God can read hearts.
Yet when one sinner repents, ALL Heaven rejoices. Why? Because God lets all Heaven know. He “calls together His friends and neighbors” and notifies them.
LUKE 15:6-7, 10 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. . . . 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
This holy angelic knowledge comes from being “revealed” by God.
That was the whole point of St. Augustine and tdgesq in post 2.
QUOTE:
The second kind of knowledge, however, which comes of grace, and consists in speculation, has not been utterly taken away from them, but lessened; because, of these Divine secrets only so much is revealed to them as is necessary; and that is done either by means of the angels, or “through some temporal workings of Divine power,” as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix, 21); but not in the same degree as to the holy angels, to whom many more things are revealed, and more fully, in the Word Himself. But of the third knowledge, as likewise of charity, they are utterly deprived.
Also the Heavenly Angels obviously knew of Christ’s birth. St. Gabriel foretold this to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They rejoiced. They appeared to the shepherds. etc.
Yet did the fallen angels (the demons) know? No! This is an example of what was NOT revealed to them (the fallen angels).
CCC 498b . . . . The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the "connection of these mysteries with one another” in the totality of Christ’s mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection: “Mary’s virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord’s death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God’s silence.”
ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH “And from **the prince of this world were hidden **Mary’s virginity and her child-bearing, in like manner also the death of the Lord.”
— St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter To The Ephesians
These quotes from Origen and St. Basil are almost certainly concerning the Martyr St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter To The Ephesians.
ORIGEN On this subject, I have found a fine observation in a letter of the martyr Ignatius, second bishop of Antioch after Peter, who fought with the wild beasts during a persecution in Rome. Mary’s virginity was hidden from the prince of this world, hidden thanks to Joseph and her marriage to him. Her virginity was kept hidden because she was thought to be married.
— Origen. Homilies on Luke 6, 3-4; PG 13, 1814-15; SC 87, 144-46. From Luigi Gamberno. Mary and the Fathers of the Church. Ignatius Press pp. 76-77
St. Basil also likely building upon the writings St. Ignatius of Antioch (“an ancient author”) concerning Mary’s Virginity states:
ST. BASIL THE GREAT An ancient author offered another reason. The marriage with Joseph was planned so that Mary’s virginity might remain hidden from the prince of this world. For the external forms of marriage were adopted by the Virgin, almost as if to distract the Evil One, who has always preyed on virgins, ever since he heard the prophet announcing: “Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son” (Is 7:14). With this marriage, then, the tempter of virginity was deceived. For he knew that the coming of the Lord in the flesh would entail the destruction of his dominion.
— St. Basil. On The Holy Generation of Christ 3; PG 31 From Luigi Gamberno. Mary and the Fathers of the Church pp. 147
God hides some things from the devil–the prince of this world (a fallen angel).
Incidentally, also notice the good angels even now learn from observing how God deals with the Church.
EPHESIANS 3:9-11 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, . . .
See also CCC 221, 772, and 1066 to see God revealing His plan to “all creation” (CCC 1066) yet in conformity with His will.
Hope this helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
QUOTE:
I have great respect for Fr. Fortea, but does he realize how incredibly contradictory this quotation is?
Fr. Fortea is not contradicting himself.
To contradict yourself you must be using the subject in the same sense.
Fallen spirits cannot read our thoughts. Fr. Fortea is correct.
Heavenly spirits MAY not on their own accord read our thoughts . . . .but MAY be privy to our thoughts because God clues them in. Fr. Fortea is also correct on this point (but assumes we know the distinctions).
Let’s look at St. Thomas Aquinas (as tdgesq linked to) . . . (this concerns knowledge of future events but the same principle applies) . . .
QUOTE:
Reply to Objection 1. Men cannot know future things except in their causes, or by God’s revelation. The angels know the future in the same way, but much more distinctly.
For example:
Only God can read hearts.
Yet when one sinner repents, ALL Heaven rejoices. Why? Because God lets all Heaven know. He “calls together His friends and neighbors” and notifies them.
LUKE 15:6-7, 10 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.’ 7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. . . . 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
This holy angelic knowledge comes from being “revealed” by God.
That was the whole point of St. Augustine and tdgesq in post 2.
QUOTE:
The second kind of knowledge, however, which comes of grace, and consists in speculation, has not been utterly taken away from them, but lessened; because, of these Divine secrets only so much is revealed to them as is necessary; and that is done either by means of the angels, or “through some temporal workings of Divine power,” as Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix, 21); but not in the same degree as to the holy angels, to whom many more things are revealed, and more fully, in the Word Himself. But of the third knowledge, as likewise of charity, they are utterly deprived.
Also the Heavenly Angels obviously knew of Christ’s birth. St. Gabriel foretold this to the Blessed Virgin Mary. They rejoiced. They appeared to the shepherds. etc.
Yet did the fallen angels (the demons) know? No! This is an example of what was NOT revealed to them (the fallen angels).
CCC 498b . . . . The meaning of this event is accessible only to faith, which understands in it the "connection of these mysteries with one another” in the totality of Christ’s mysteries, from his Incarnation to his Passover. St. Ignatius of Antioch already bears witness to this connection: “Mary’s virginity and giving birth, and even the Lord’s death escaped the notice of the prince of this world: these three mysteries worthy of proclamation were accomplished in God’s silence.”
ST. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH “And from **the prince of this world were hidden **Mary’s virginity and her child-bearing, in like manner also the death of the Lord.”
— St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter To The Ephesians
These quotes from Origen and St. Basil are almost certainly concerning the Martyr St. Ignatius of Antioch in his Letter To The Ephesians.
ORIGEN On this subject, I have found a fine observation in a letter of the martyr Ignatius, second bishop of Antioch after Peter, who fought with the wild beasts during a persecution in Rome. Mary’s virginity was hidden from the prince of this world, hidden thanks to Joseph and her marriage to him. Her virginity was kept hidden because she was thought to be married.
— Origen. Homilies on Luke 6, 3-4; PG 13, 1814-15; SC 87, 144-46. From Luigi Gamberno. Mary and the Fathers of the Church. Ignatius Press pp. 76-77
St. Basil also likely building upon the writings St. Ignatius of Antioch (“an ancient author”) concerning Mary’s Virginity states:
ST. BASIL THE GREAT An ancient author offered another reason. The marriage with Joseph was planned so that Mary’s virginity might remain hidden from the prince of this world. For the external forms of marriage were adopted by the Virgin, almost as if to distract the Evil One, who has always preyed on virgins, ever since he heard the prophet announcing: “Behold the virgin shall conceive and bear a son” (Is 7:14). With this marriage, then, the tempter of virginity was deceived. For he knew that the coming of the Lord in the flesh would entail the destruction of his dominion.
— St. Basil. On The Holy Generation of Christ 3; PG 31 From Luigi Gamberno. Mary and the Fathers of the Church pp. 147
God hides some things from the devil–the prince of this world (a fallen angel).
Incidentally, also notice the good angels even now learn from observing how God deals with the Church.
EPHESIANS 3:9-11 9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, . . .
See also CCC 221, 772, and 1066 to see God revealing His plan to “all creation” (CCC 1066) yet in conformity with His will.
Hope this helps.
God bless.
Cathoholic
C
Cathoholic
Guest
The link that you gave boomerang was not working so I could not read Fr. Fortea’s quote directly. I have heard a couple of different interviews with him and read part of his book.
The issues you had may have been language issues too. He does a pretty good job with his English (not perfect though).
St. Thomas Aquinas talks about this phenomenon of fallen angels reading secret thoughts too.
But this is done in a mere natural manner, whereas the Heavenly Hosts may use a natural manner too, but they may be the beneficiaries of supernatural (name removed by moderator)ut (from God) too, or they can see the effects of charity (the fallen Angels cannot see).
Here is St. Thomas Aquinas talking about the mechanism of how angels (even fallen angels) can understand thoughts using natural means (but this does not mean they can directly read your thoughts supernaturally) . . . .
ST. THOMAS AQUINAS I answer that, A secret thought can be known in two ways: first, in its effect. In this way it can be known not only by an angel, but also by man; and with so much the greater subtlety according as the effect is the more hidden. For thought is sometimes discovered not merely by outward act, but also by change of countenance; and doctors can tell some passions of the soul by the mere pulse. Much more then can angels, or even demons, the more deeply they penetrate those occult bodily modifications. Hence Augustine says (De divin. daemon.) that demons “sometimes with the greatest faculty learn man’s dispositions, not only when expressed by speech, but even when conceived in thought, when the soul expresses them by certain signs in the body”; although (Retract. ii, 30) he says “it cannot be asserted how this is done.”
I think Fr. Fortea must have been assuming we know these distinctions.
The issues you had may have been language issues too. He does a pretty good job with his English (not perfect though).
St. Thomas Aquinas talks about this phenomenon of fallen angels reading secret thoughts too.
But this is done in a mere natural manner, whereas the Heavenly Hosts may use a natural manner too, but they may be the beneficiaries of supernatural (name removed by moderator)ut (from God) too, or they can see the effects of charity (the fallen Angels cannot see).
Here is St. Thomas Aquinas talking about the mechanism of how angels (even fallen angels) can understand thoughts using natural means (but this does not mean they can directly read your thoughts supernaturally) . . . .
ST. THOMAS AQUINAS I answer that, A secret thought can be known in two ways: first, in its effect. In this way it can be known not only by an angel, but also by man; and with so much the greater subtlety according as the effect is the more hidden. For thought is sometimes discovered not merely by outward act, but also by change of countenance; and doctors can tell some passions of the soul by the mere pulse. Much more then can angels, or even demons, the more deeply they penetrate those occult bodily modifications. Hence Augustine says (De divin. daemon.) that demons “sometimes with the greatest faculty learn man’s dispositions, not only when expressed by speech, but even when conceived in thought, when the soul expresses them by certain signs in the body”; although (Retract. ii, 30) he says “it cannot be asserted how this is done.”
I think Fr. Fortea must have been assuming we know these distinctions.
B
bre
Guest
Lord, hear our prayers
W
Winterwolf00
Guest
Why do you believe demons can’t read your thoughts?
G
GEddie
Guest
Still waiting for a scriptural or Patristic reference to demons being unable to read our mind.
Something so spiritually basic, if true, should not require philosophy or millenniums of time to come to light.
ICXC NIKA
Something so spiritually basic, if true, should not require philosophy or millenniums of time to come to light.
ICXC NIKA
T
truetofaith
Guest
To me…I believe that would put them on a level with God.
I think they have enhanced skills of observation…
example : I’m staring at my kitchen clock and instead of thinking of the time or what I will do an hour from now, I’m thinking of robbing the bank or killing my wife or having impure desires. God will know this but I doubt a demon can know from watching me.
He can put thoughts into my head but unless he sees me looking at the money on the counter of the bank or see my anger with my wife or observe my reaction to a picture of a girl, he cannot know what is in my mind.
B
boomerang
Guest
Good information, thanks. But I still stand with my opinion that Fr. Fortea does indeed contradict himself when he says, "No. Though demons can tempt us, they cannot read our thoughts…
…This being said, if one directs his mind and will to a saint, an angel, or a demon, they can hear us. So it does not matter whether our prayer is verbal or merely mental. In certain cases of possession I have observed that the demon obeys orders that have been given mentally"
First he gives an absolute statement “…they cannot read our thoughts”. OK. Then he immediately says “…If one directs his mind toward a demon, they can hear us”. Fr. Fortea doesn’t say exactly *how *they hear us, only that they can hear our thoughts, by whatever means, be it God allowing it, or some other means.
I think it’s an error to assume that the demon can never know our thoughts, when it is clear that they can and do know our thoughts at least some of the time, therefore we might do well to try to maintain custody over our thoughts.
G
GodHeals
Guest
I would like to know, as well…
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Boomerang. You said:
QUOTE:
I think it’s an error to assume that the demon can never know our thoughts . . .
I think it is an error too.
But the issue remains HOW demons can “know our thoughts” and how demons can NOT KNOW our thoughts?
**
**
Heavenly hosts and demons can know them via means of observation as St. Thomas said (“when the soul expresses them by certain signs in the body").
And as St. Augustine said (concerning “knowledge”): “. . . to the holy angels, to whom many more things are revealed, and more fully, in the Word Himself.”
Notice St. Augustine says this “knowledge” is “revealed” to them.
If angels (and demons) could read thoughts, St. Augustine probably would have said:
“. . . to the holy angels, to whom many more thoughts are seen more fully, in the direct observation of the minds and thoughts of men.”
But St. Augustine does NOT say that.
Geddie. You asked for a “Patristic reference to demons being unable to read our mind”.
If demons could read people’s minds Geddie, WHY would the demons be unaware of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s virginity, or Jesus’ miraculous birth as St. Ignatius of Antioch said in about 100 A.D. (that IS Patristic)?
Certainly you are not asserting that the Blessed Mother never contemplated these things in her mind and heart are you?
LUKE 2:9-19 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; 11 for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!” 15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it they made known the saying which had been told them concerning this child; 18 and all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.
“And from the prince of this world were hidden Mary’s virginity and her child-bearing, in like manner also the death of the Lord.” -St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Origen, St. Basil the Great. They all just matter of factly talked about how this was hidden from satan. The CCC 498 repeats it as we already saw too.
And if demons or even good angels can directly read the hearts and minds of men, WHY would St. Paul say this in 1st Corinthians 2? . . . .
1st CORINTHIANS 2:11 11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
St. Paul doesn’t say:
**NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 2:11 ** 11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him and the angelic spirits and demonic spirits who can directly observe a man’s mind?
(The only exception to all of this is at the end of time at the General Judgment when all will be revealed to every being to observe the perfect mercy and perfect justice of God being carried out perfectly. But even then, God will be making these things known).
Geddie. Considering the above, I would turn the whole question around and ask:
Still waiting for a scriptural or Patristic reference to demons being ABLE to read our mind.
Also consider the concept of conscience. . . . .
QUOTE:
I think it’s an error to assume that the demon can never know our thoughts . . .
I think it is an error too.
But the issue remains HOW demons can “know our thoughts” and how demons can NOT KNOW our thoughts?
**
- Heavenly hosts and demons know our thoughts by deducing them from our actions? Yes.
**
- Heavenly hosts and demons know our thoughts DIRECTLY by reading our minds and hearts? No.
Heavenly hosts and demons can know them via means of observation as St. Thomas said (“when the soul expresses them by certain signs in the body").
And as St. Augustine said (concerning “knowledge”): “. . . to the holy angels, to whom many more things are revealed, and more fully, in the Word Himself.”
Notice St. Augustine says this “knowledge” is “revealed” to them.
If angels (and demons) could read thoughts, St. Augustine probably would have said:
“. . . to the holy angels, to whom many more thoughts are seen more fully, in the direct observation of the minds and thoughts of men.”
But St. Augustine does NOT say that.
Geddie. You asked for a “Patristic reference to demons being unable to read our mind”.
If demons could read people’s minds Geddie, WHY would the demons be unaware of the Blessed Virgin Mary’s virginity, or Jesus’ miraculous birth as St. Ignatius of Antioch said in about 100 A.D. (that IS Patristic)?
Certainly you are not asserting that the Blessed Mother never contemplated these things in her mind and heart are you?
LUKE 2:9-19 9 And an angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were filled with fear. 10 And the angel said to them, “Be not afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of a great joy which will come to all the people; 11 for to you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12 And this will be a sign for you: you will find a babe wrapped in swaddling cloths and lying in a manger.” 13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying, 14 “Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace among men with whom he is pleased!” 15 When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they went with haste, and found Mary and Joseph, and the babe lying in a manger. 17 And when they saw it they made known the saying which had been told them concerning this child; 18 and all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19 But Mary kept all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20 And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.
“And from the prince of this world were hidden Mary’s virginity and her child-bearing, in like manner also the death of the Lord.” -St. Ignatius of Antioch
St. Ignatius of Antioch, Origen, St. Basil the Great. They all just matter of factly talked about how this was hidden from satan. The CCC 498 repeats it as we already saw too.
And if demons or even good angels can directly read the hearts and minds of men, WHY would St. Paul say this in 1st Corinthians 2? . . . .
1st CORINTHIANS 2:11 11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
St. Paul doesn’t say:
**NOT 1st CORINTHIANS 2:11 ** 11 For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him and the angelic spirits and demonic spirits who can directly observe a man’s mind?
(The only exception to all of this is at the end of time at the General Judgment when all will be revealed to every being to observe the perfect mercy and perfect justice of God being carried out perfectly. But even then, God will be making these things known).
Geddie. Considering the above, I would turn the whole question around and ask:
Still waiting for a scriptural or Patristic reference to demons being ABLE to read our mind.
Also consider the concept of conscience. . . . .
C
Cathoholic
Guest
Also consider the concept of conscience.
Conscience which is among other things “a law of the mind” (CCC 1778). It thus follows the use of our conscience involves thinking.
Consider CCC 1776. In man’s conscience, “he is ALONE with God whose voice echoes in his depths”.
Notice it DOESN’T say: In man’s conscience, “he is with God whose voice echoes in his depths and with angels and demons too”. No.
If demons could read the thoughts of men, this would not make sense.
CCC 1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47
If Angels and other Heavenly Saints and demons could read our thoughts DIRECTLY, this verse in 1st Kings wouldn’t make any sense either:
1st KINGS 8:38-39a 38 whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by any man or by all thy people Israel, each knowing the affliction of his own heart and stretching out his hands toward this house; 39 then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and render to each whose heart thou knowest, according to all his ways (for thou, thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men) . . . . .
The prophet Jeremiah rhetorically asks about the human heart; “who can understand it”?
If Heavenly angels and demons could “understand it” his profound rhetorical question seems to be trivia. But if ONLY God can understand it, Jeremiah’s rhetorical question makes perfect sense.
JEREMIAH 17:9-10 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? 10 “I the LORD search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”
Boomerang. I have watched Fr. Fortea’s interviews here and here and read at least some (I can’t recall, I may have read it all but I know I at least read some) of his book interview here.
Fr. Fortea is a very lucid and reasoned thinker. An apparent self-contradiction like that seems unlikely to me.
Seems much more likely Fr. Fortea assumed readers knew of the differing senses he was talking about . . . . or . . . . possibly a language issue as he is not primarily an English speaker.
I likewise will stand by my assertion defending Fr. Fortea unless I see more information otherwise.
Angels can read hearts (indirectly)
Is not a self-contradiction. It is a differing sense.
As I did research for this thread there were a TON of other Scripture passages that talk about God reading hearts of men.
Yes I know that in and of itself, verses that state God reading hearts and minds wouldn’t necessarily rule out angels etc. directly peering into the minds and hearts of men too.
But if angelic hosts were able to peer into the hearts and minds of men, I would have expected to see that in Scripture in many cases. I saw that in none of the verses.
I will post those verses too just to save other readers the work of having to look them up. I will try to post them tomorrow or so.
Those (not yet posted) verses ALONE won’t make the case for the inability of angels to read our minds (directly), but taken COLLECTIVELY and with NOTHING to the contrary, I do believe they add to the case that only God can read the hearts of men.
God bless and thanks for the discussion on an issue I have been wanting to do a little research on anyway.
GodHeals. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. I know I certainly learned from this thread and the research it challenged me to do. Good topic.
Conscience which is among other things “a law of the mind” (CCC 1778). It thus follows the use of our conscience involves thinking.
Consider CCC 1776. In man’s conscience, “he is ALONE with God whose voice echoes in his depths”.
Notice it DOESN’T say: In man’s conscience, “he is with God whose voice echoes in his depths and with angels and demons too”. No.
If demons could read the thoughts of men, this would not make sense.
CCC 1776 "Deep within his conscience man discovers a law which he has not laid upon himself but which he must obey. Its voice, ever calling him to love and to do what is good and to avoid evil, sounds in his heart at the right moment. . . . For man has in his heart a law inscribed by God. . . . His conscience is man’s most secret core and his sanctuary. There he is alone with God whose voice echoes in his depths."47
If Angels and other Heavenly Saints and demons could read our thoughts DIRECTLY, this verse in 1st Kings wouldn’t make any sense either:
1st KINGS 8:38-39a 38 whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by any man or by all thy people Israel, each knowing the affliction of his own heart and stretching out his hands toward this house; 39 then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and render to each whose heart thou knowest, according to all his ways (for thou, thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men) . . . . .
The prophet Jeremiah rhetorically asks about the human heart; “who can understand it”?
If Heavenly angels and demons could “understand it” his profound rhetorical question seems to be trivia. But if ONLY God can understand it, Jeremiah’s rhetorical question makes perfect sense.
JEREMIAH 17:9-10 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it? 10 “I the LORD search the mind and try the heart, to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings.”
Boomerang. I have watched Fr. Fortea’s interviews here and here and read at least some (I can’t recall, I may have read it all but I know I at least read some) of his book interview here.
Fr. Fortea is a very lucid and reasoned thinker. An apparent self-contradiction like that seems unlikely to me.
Seems much more likely Fr. Fortea assumed readers knew of the differing senses he was talking about . . . . or . . . . possibly a language issue as he is not primarily an English speaker.
I likewise will stand by my assertion defending Fr. Fortea unless I see more information otherwise.
Angels can’t read hearts (directly)
Angels can read hearts (indirectly)
Is not a self-contradiction. It is a differing sense.
As I did research for this thread there were a TON of other Scripture passages that talk about God reading hearts of men.
Yes I know that in and of itself, verses that state God reading hearts and minds wouldn’t necessarily rule out angels etc. directly peering into the minds and hearts of men too.
But if angelic hosts were able to peer into the hearts and minds of men, I would have expected to see that in Scripture in many cases. I saw that in none of the verses.
I will post those verses too just to save other readers the work of having to look them up. I will try to post them tomorrow or so.
Those (not yet posted) verses ALONE won’t make the case for the inability of angels to read our minds (directly), but taken COLLECTIVELY and with NOTHING to the contrary, I do believe they add to the case that only God can read the hearts of men.
God bless and thanks for the discussion on an issue I have been wanting to do a little research on anyway.
GodHeals. I hope this helps answer some of your questions. I know I certainly learned from this thread and the research it challenged me to do. Good topic.
G
GodHeals
Guest
Thank you for sharing… I still need to read through everything you posted. God Bless You!
B
bre
Guest
God bless
- Status