If even Hell doesn't work, what hope do prisons have?

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DL82

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Even the fear of Hell, on its’ own, is not enough to keep us from sin. If it was, we wouldn’t need the forgiveness of Christ’s saving blood, nor the sacrament of reconciliation and penance.

The fear of eternal damnation and separation from God does not in itself lead to perfect repentance. We can only have perfect contrition through loving God for who He is, and feeling genuinely sorry for offending Him through our sins.

I know of very few people who became Christian because they were scared of going to Hell, though I know a great many who had a personal encounter with our risen Lord and Saviour and came to understand the greatness of His love and respond to it.

If even the fires of perdition can’t turn people around and make them change their ways, why do some people think that harsher prisons, longer sentences, the death penalty, corporal punishment, etc. will help reduce crime and increase respectfulness and social order? If even God can’t create a prison so fearful that it, alone and of itself, can turn people away from their evil ways, then what chance do we mortals have?

Isn’t it all just about vengeance? Isn’t that kind of harsh approach to criminal justice just about wanting to get back at criminals, about feeling self-righteous because we keep the laws, though secretly we’d like to break them if only we weren’t scared of the consequences? If we really love our country and want to serve and protect it, just like if we really love God, we will do good not out of fear of punishment but just because of that love. And we won’t feel the need to take revenge on people who don’t share that love.

Prison doesn’t work. If prisons worked, there would be fewer and fewer people going to jail instead of more and more. Hell doesn’t work either, and God knows that, which is why He doesn’t rely on fear alone to keep His people from sin. Isn’t that a call to love and to create a society which is fairer and gives real opportunities to all?

👍
 
DL82 said:
Isn’t it all just about vengeance? Isn’t that kind of harsh approach to criminal justice just about wanting to get back at criminals, about feeling self-righteous because we keep the laws, though secretly we’d like to break them if only we weren’t scared of the consequences? If we really love our country and want to serve and protect it, just like if we really love God, we will do good not out of fear of punishment but just because of that love. And we won’t feel the need to take revenge on people who don’t share that love.

Prison doesn’t work. If prisons worked, there would be fewer and fewer people going to jail instead of more and more. Hell doesn’t work either, and God knows that, which is why He doesn’t rely on fear alone to keep His people from sin. Isn’t that a call to love and to create a society which is fairer and gives real opportunities to all?

👍
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No – it’s also about punishment, not to mention protecting society. What alternative would you suggest?

Peace,
Dante
 
well in general, I would say that if punishments were harsher, crime would go down. For example, if the consequence for speeding was the electric chair, I am sure speeding would decrease. That said, this doesn’t mean that such a law is moral or well founded.

The real problem is that people have to be taught better morals while growing up. Crime usually occurs from those who are poor and often born out of wedlock. While each person is responsible for his actions, obtaining moral values from the “streets” will still obviously have an effect on the felon.

That said, I am generally in favor of longer prison sentences for heinous crimes that are likely to be repeated such as rape or pedophilia. I however am opposed to prison sentences for victimless crimes like drug abuse.

And I find it very unfortunate when I hear that the death penalty is justified by vengeance.
 
Agreed.

Perhaps more people would fear hell if they were to experience it for even a brief moment in this life? 🤷
 
Sir Robert Peel, founder of Britain’s Metropolitan Police Force (whose members are still called “Bobbies” after him) demonstrated that it is the certainty of punishment, not the severity that deters crime.

Doctor Charles LeBlanc, who had many years working in the Louisiana State Penal System, used to say, “You can’t rehabilitate someone if he was never habilitated to begin with.”

It appears that in many cases the best we can do is to catch and sentence serious criminals, and keep them locked up until they are too old to commit more crimes.
 
I believe the HYPOTHESIS presented in this thread is wrong.

First, it presumes that everyone believes in Hell. That presumption is false. Second, it presumes that Hell is tangible; that is also false. Then it compares an intangible state of being that many people do not even accept as truth to a physical place that is provable.

The only way that you can make a reasonable correlation between Hell and Prison is if you are dealing with a population that believes that Hell actually exists, and if they believe that Hell is actually much worse than a man made Prison.
 
I don’t think we should send people to prison because we’re mad at them; only because we are afraid of them. Punishment and revenge are usually ineffective at changing behavior, but when someone presents an immediate danger to others, we lock them up because we fear the consequences of letting them have their freedom.

Alan
 
AlanFromWichita said:
I don’t think we should send people to prison because we’re mad at them; only because we are afraid of them. Punishment and revenge are usually ineffective at changing behavior, but when someone presents an immediate danger to others, we lock them up because we fear the consequences of letting them have their freedom.

Alan
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You are absolutely correct. The only thing that can truly be shown to reduce crime is incapacitation – locking up convicted criminals so they cannot prey on the rest of us.
 
Newbie2 said:
…or capital punishment. 😦
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True – although as I said earlier, capital punishment ought to be reserved for those cases where the criminal is highly dangerous and we have no other choice – such as those who kill fellow inmates, Corrections Officers, police, judges, prosecutors and jury members.
 
In reality, people are more afraid of Jail than they are of hell. Because Jail is something that everyone can verify as a fact. Whereas hell is more like an obscure myth.
 
DL82 said:
Even the fear of Hell, on its’ own, is not enough to keep us from sin. If it was, we wouldn’t need the forgiveness of Christ’s saving blood, nor the sacrament of reconciliation and penance.

The fear of eternal damnation and separation from God does not in itself lead to perfect repentance. We can only have perfect contrition through loving God for who He is, and feeling genuinely sorry for offending Him through our sins.

I know of very few people who became Christian because they were scared of going to Hell, though I know a great many who had a personal encounter with our risen Lord and Saviour and came to understand the greatness of His love and respond to it.

If even the fires of perdition can’t turn people around and make them change their ways, why do some people think that harsher prisons, longer sentences, the death penalty, corporal punishment, etc. will help reduce crime and increase respectfulness and social order? If even God can’t create a prison so fearful that it, alone and of itself, can turn people away from their evil ways, then what chance do we mortals have?

Isn’t it all just about vengeance? Isn’t that kind of harsh approach to criminal justice just about wanting to get back at criminals, about feeling self-righteous because we keep the laws, though secretly we’d like to break them if only we weren’t scared of the consequences? If we really love our country and want to serve and protect it, just like if we really love God, we will do good not out of fear of punishment but just because of that love. And we won’t feel the need to take revenge on people who don’t share that love.

Prison doesn’t work. If prisons worked, there would be fewer and fewer people going to jail instead of more and more. Hell doesn’t work either, and God knows that, which is why He doesn’t rely on fear alone to keep His people from sin. Isn’t that a call to love and to create a society which is fairer and gives real opportunities to all?

👍
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I agree. Prisons don’t work, but there is no viable alternative. With a few exceptions, the basic inmate mentality would see love as a weakness and find some way to exploit it to their advantage. I know this is a cynical view, but it is 99 times out of 100 the truth.😦
 
pete_29 said:
I agree. Prisons don’t work, but there is no viable alternative. With a few exceptions, the basic inmate mentality would see love as a weakness and find some way to exploit it to their advantage. I know this is a cynical view, but it is 99 times out of 100 the truth.😦
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Prison does work – in the sense that a person in prison will commit fewer crimes than he will when out on the street.
 
vern_humphrey said:
Prison does work – in the sense that a person in prison will commit fewer crimes than he will when out on the street.
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True, I was speaking in the context of correction. In this context they fail, but as I said, there is no viable alternative.
 
pete_29 said:
True, I was speaking in the context of correction. In this context they fail, but as I said, there is no viable alternative.
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That may be the best we can hope for – to identify the violent sociopaths, convict them of their crimes and keep them out of circulation until they are too old to commit more crimes.
 
vern_humphrey said:
That may be the best we can hope for – to identify the violent sociopaths, convict them of their crimes and keep them out of circulation until they are too old to commit more crimes.
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That pretty much seems like the only choice.
 
CapIV said:
I however am opposed to prison sentences for victimless crimes like drug abuse.
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Do you really believe drug abuse is a victimless crime? If you do, I suggest you learn more about the topic. You really can’t differentiate between an abuser or an addict as an abuser can become an addict overnight. Also, where does the money they spend on thier illicit drugs go, and what is it used for? It goes to organized crime, which increases the size and scope of thier activities. Many also believe much poppy profits go to terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda, which used money from somewhere to murder well over 3000 people on Sept. 11, 2001 alone. That money also is used to hook more kids on drugs, which is how drug dealers keep the profits rolling in when thier older clientelle dies off at a young age. More young lifes wasted here on earth, probably bound for an eternity of pain and loneliness.

As to prison, God calls for justice. He tells us he will punish those who lead his children astray. Unrestrained criminality will lead many a good person astray. Don’t many abused children become abusers of children when they grow up. If people work hard and continually are robbed, they may decide to stop working hard and become thieves themselves. And the list can go on ad infinitum.

To the OP, I find it interesting you offer no other alternatives than to let the plunderers plunder. I find that to be a poorly thought out position, as the consequences would be catastrophic. Here in the USA we have seen the effects of lighter sentencing for criminality in a higher incidence of crime. Tighter enforcement in some areas has helped. Increased sentences for more egregious crimes has also helped. A position without an alternative is no position at all.
 
melensdad said:
I believe the HYPOTHESIS presented in this thread is wrong.

First, it presumes that everyone believes in Hell. That presumption is false. Second, it presumes that Hell is tangible; that is also false. Then it compares an intangible state of being that many people do not even accept as truth to a physical place that is provable.

The only way that you can make a reasonable correlation between Hell and Prison is if you are dealing with a population that believes that Hell actually exists, and if they believe that Hell is actually much worse than a man made Prison.
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I disagree. There are many people who are afraid of prison, yet they commit crimes anyway believing, often correctly, that they will neither be caught nor incarcerated. Alternately, they may feel that some time in the pokey is worth whatever crime they chose to commit.

I think many people feel the same way about Hell.
 
mpb74 said:
Do you really believe drug abuse is a victimless crime? If you do, I suggest you learn more about the topic. You really can’t differentiate between an abuser or an addict as an abuser can become an addict overnight. Also, where does the money they spend on thier illicit drugs go, and what is it used for? It goes to organized crime, which increases the size and scope of thier activities. Many also believe much poppy profits go to terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda, which used money from somewhere to murder well over 3000 people on Sept. 11, 2001 alone. That money also is used to hook more kids on drugs, which is how drug dealers keep the profits rolling in when thier older clientelle dies off at a young age. More young lifes wasted here on earth, probably bound for an eternity of pain and loneliness.
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If you have ever worked with drug abusers, you know that they will rationalize their abuse in defiance of all reason. When you encouter someone who considers drug abuse a “victimless crime,” you have encountered someone who will not be swayed by logic (cognitive thinking) because his values and attitudes (affective thinking) overpower his logic
 
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