If even Hell doesn't work, what hope do prisons have?

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No – it’s also about punishment, not to mention protecting society. What alternative would you suggest?

Dante
At least one we could expect, that it obeys God’s laws, and it could do some help in the capital punishment issue alone, never mind in free choice.

What is the prisoner to learn by this entity who can disobey divine precepts, other than it is ok to disobey laws as long as you can get away with it.? Multiple arrests. Why should that surprise us?

AndyF
 
Try Love—Yes, you can put someone in prison for a long time and guess what? As soon as they get out they do another crime. So what is the answer…we must look at the root causes of behaviour and not just use the band aid prison sentence method. Not to mention that states that have the death penality do not, yes, do not have lower crime rates?
If the person in prison needs rehabilitation, then he or she will do much better when released if they get it. Also, how does one get a job without an education? If the prisoners need education in order to get on their feet and live, then they should get it.
Just putting someone in jail without helping them with their problems isn’t going to help.
Didn’t Jesus help people? I believe that He wasn’t quick to throw the first stone? Well then neither should we. I am not saying that people should go unpunished for their crimes, but it is also necessary to look deeper into the situtation and find out the root cause of the problem.
What do you think?
Meka
 
Try Love—Yes, you can put someone in prison for a long time and guess what? As soon as they get out they do another crime. So what is the answer…we must look at the root causes of behaviour and not just use the band aid prison sentence method. Not to mention that states that have the death penality do not, yes, do not have lower crime rates?
If the person in prison needs rehabilitation, then he or she will do much better when released if they get it.
But as Dr. LeBlanc used to ask, “How do you rehabilitate someone who was never habilitated to begin with?”
 
Sir Robert Peel, founder of Britain’s Metropolitan Police Force (whose members are still called “Bobbies” after him) demonstrated that it is the certainty of punishment, not the severity that deters crime.
This is a very important and much-overlooked point.
 
I noticed the original poster still has not responded with any alternatives. I guess I will give it. If we truly had no punishment for crime, then we still would have punishment in the form of vigilantism. Some one who steals or breaks in, and is due no punishment would be subject to the neighbors stringing him up. After all, they would not be subjct to punishment either. If you think police are corrupt now, how would these same people act knowing that they could punish in the name of justice with complete impunity. Punishment not only is geared toward protection of society, but ot making sure that all punishment is measured and controlled and not subject to teh whims of individuals.
 
Our hope is not fear of hell. Our hope is love of Jesus Christ and trust in his divine mercy.
Deacon Ed B
 
Sometimes people must see a “vision of hell” which may turn out to be prison in order to change their ways. It is then that we only hope that the imprisoned may truly repent and find God. That imprisoned person may be someone that you know and love very much. Even the most hardened of sinners will find mercy with Christ if they truly repent. Prison does work. Even if for just a few. Hell does work. It is there for those who have chosen to live seperately from Christ. This is especially important for us to understand the importance of praying for those who do not believe, hope adore and love God.
 
Well I think there is a good program called purgatory, otherwise we are all going to have do the best with what we can with the root cause, original sin.
 
True. But, if we do not repent our sins and turn to God, we will not even make it to purgatory. While we are all born with original sin, what we choose to do with our lives is the difference between purgatory to eventual heaven and unfortunately, the other option, hell. God has given us free will. So back to what hope do prisons have? Well, it depends on the will of the inmate doesn’t it?
 
Hell is not a deterrent to people who don’t believe it exist. It will not deter people who believe in God and Hell, but make themselves believe they have a legitimate reason for commiting their crime. Shrinks call it justification. It also doesn’t deter people who believe they are smarter than God, and there are plenty of them out there.

Certainty of punishment would be a great deterrent. Unfortunately many young people today , in the USA, have seen a revolving door of justice.We have plea bargaining, giving up someone else who’s crimes are more egregious, and many judges and parole boards who care about root causes. The root cause is always the same. The criminal wants what he wants and he wants it now. If he likes what you own, he feels entitled to take it. If a girl jilts him and he wants her, he feels entitled to stalk her, kill her other admirerers, even kill her so that no one else can have what he wants. If your kid has an Ipod, he is entitled to take it from your kid, by violence if neccesary, and if he also feels jealous of your child because he believes you love your child enough to buy him an expensive item like that, he can murder your child, because no one deserves to have what he doesn’t have. There are a zillion variations on the theme, but the root cause is all the same. Pride and greed.

I may be wrong but I just don’t see Christ asking Saint Peter for a probation report wiith an explanation of the root causes of our evil conduct on the day of judgement. Do You.?

Every human being is fully responsible for their conduct. That naturally varies among individuals based on their mental competence. Understanding of the immorality of their act is also a factor,but very few people fail to comprehend that it is wrong to take another persons property, Or that intentionally injuring or killing someone, is almost always wrong. All the basic crimes, standard crime, is well understood universally through the natural order of God’s creation.

I personally arrested many a misguided neer’ do well, and invariably they would look ashamed of what they had done. For a long time I thought I could maybe get through to them. I would ask them why they would do that to another human being, and they would look to the floor and say, “I dunno”. I came to hope I may plant a seed in the heart of just one of them. Who knows?

Prayer is a great weapon. I believe we have been recently called to greater evangelization by the Pope. How’s about Catholics who feel strongly about solving the root causes of crime, take to the crime ridden inner city streets within 200 miles of their homes and bring the good news of Jesus Christ to the youth of those inner cities. Now that takes courage and conviction, That takes faith in the Lord our God. Do that and you can become a Saint, with the capital S. ,which is what all Catholics are called to strive for. You may become a martyr for Christ and the Kingdom of God.

In fact the world will hate you for it. I believe those were the reading at Mass the last two days, in fact. Having faith and going to Church is really a very easy thing to do. I actually get a great pleasure in going to Mass lately, so It is not only easy , it is a pleasurable for me. What does that cost me? Nothing, I actually wind up profiting. Not much of a sacrifice on my part.

Praying is a simple faithful act. We just need to remember to keep our hands in a dignified prayer position. We shouldn’t be wringing our hands over root causes of crime and the innumerable other things in this world that range between the unfortunate and the utterly, despicable, evil we sometimes see.

Feeling sorry for people doesn’t help them. Prayer can help some. But I don’t believe the New Testament has any books titled Feeling Sorry, Wringing Hands, or Prayer. But it does have one called ACTS. From the ancient English word, Act. It means DO something. Put yourself out there and act. Do somethig positive to help people come to God. That truly pleases Him, of this I have no doubt at all.

Do not read any disrespect towards prayer, Saints, or the Bible into this post. I regard these all very highly. Reading anything negative into this post in those regards is a reflection on your understanding, not mine. Thanks Dan
 
I totally agree with you that Hell is not a deterrent for many people. However, Christ does not need to ask for any report of any kind as he knows all and sees all. It is a very sad world that we live in. The root cause of this is Satan himself. I assume you are a police officer. I cannot even begin to imagine the things you have seen. However, I also sense that you are very angry towards these people. Although I can’t really blame you; you must remember that God wants us to have mercy on others as he will in turn have mercy on us. The best way is through forgiveness and prayer. Sometimes no matter what you say to someone will not make an impact. That is sad but you can make an impact through sincere prayer. I am sure that many of these people in prisons today have not had a good family life or upbringing and most certainly, they grew up without knowing Christ. How sad. Without a firm root in life, people are bound to make serious mistakes in their lives. These people were not taught to follow the narrow road. Their whole lives have been a struggle. Sometimes a little understanding can go a long way. As I said, prayer for others especially our enemies can make an impact and that shows a lot in a person when we ourselves face God on judement day…with or without a probation report. God Bless.
 
I do have disdain for career criminals. Especially violent ones. I even hold rage for a few particular individuals in that grouping. But the rage is easing, through prayer, and my penance for my own sins. It has eased, and I believe it will continue to dissipate. And I was a Police Officer, much contented in retirement.

I really save my mercy and my prayers for the people, economically, politically, and socially inferior, who have to live in the neighborhoods I used to patrol. They get on the train early in the morning to go into Manhattan at 5 am. They come home at 6pm, with a bag of grocercies in their hand.( Becuase they are afraid to go to the store) Go up to their little underheated in the winter, sweltering in the summer, “pest” infested little apartment. There they see thier children, who have been cooped up since school ended, or if there is no school have been in the entire day. ( Because thay cannot go outside safely.) Violence and drugs ravage their neighborhoods. 30 year old “men” impregnate 14 year old girls., Crack Mommies sell their babies. Guess why these psychos buy them. Where is the outrage on the part of people who think we should be more merciful towards criminals?

Jesus knows the criminal who is truly repentant, because to Him, there is no veil hiding their hearts or minds. We can’t tell. I don’t think the criminal has earned the right to the benefit of the doubt. Those who do believe that put violent, murderous, perverted people back on the streets . By The Thousands. Therefore the people in those poor communities, in total disproportion to all the others, suffer under the yolk of a tyrranny, I doubt many, if any, who post on these boards can comprehend.

Now Jesus said something to the effect of, Woe to him who leads one of my little ones astray. What do criminals do? Most lead others astray. Most obviously those who sell drugs, peddle flesh, and commit sexual offenses. How responsible are those who push and vote for a social agenda advocating soft on punishment criminal justice, responsible for the havoc and destruction those criminals wreak on civilization? If that is your agenda you may be wise to consider your complicity in crime and violence today.

As an example, As outraged as I was with the pedophiles (Child Rapers)in the ranks of Our Godly Priests, I was angrier with the Bishops who put them back in contact with children to reoffend. Their defense was, we didn’t understand the nature of their (pedophilia) illness at that time. Okay , I’ll accept that. But now the data is in. They won’t make those same mistakes , or misjudgements again. Well, the data is in. Most criminals, especially the violent, and almost always the sexual predator, will reoffend. That means they will hurt more people.Do you want to be an accomplice to their crimes. Our court system here in America will not judge you for that.(That is unless you call people mean names while doing so). Will their be a Higher Judge to answer to for that ?

Come tell my Mother in Law how the 3 “Men” who murdered her son deserve mercy and should be allowed out of jail. Tell my wife about those fine people who murdered her big brother. You can’t tell my Father in Law, because he died of a broken heart and soul soon afterward. Or the other brother who spiraled into alcoholism soon after and died due to alcohol related decision making. Tell my buddies kids. He was murdered when he was 29. three children and a wife. Two parents gone to their graves without another day of joy in their lives. This is what mercy wasted on criminals breeds. Though my Mother in Law has come to Church with us a few times, looking for something, she is no longer a Catholic. She wants to know how God could let these people murder, her son. ( He was a good man). She’s sometimes says she hates God for it. They killed him during a 30 dollar robbery. Quite a toll on a family for $30. But just so you really understand, Upon conviction they were let out on their own recognisisance. They didn’t show up to do their 15 years, (Apparently the going rate for a human life in 1978). Only when a friend on the cold case squad asked for particulars on the case did they even get searched for again. They were rearrested twlve years later. They had all been on welfare the whole time. But it gets better. When they were brought before the judge on rearrest he wanted to let them return ROR again. Only in America baby, Only screaming and howling and a near riot in the courtroom prevented such a nightmare scenario. They were all out between four and six years served. They had wives and kids while on the lam. They ate dinner, slept in beds, and held jobs(Despite collecting welfare, Only in America) all that time. My brother in Laws healthy 25 year old body rotted in a coffin beneath six feet of dirt. Soon to be joined by his brother and father.

If the release of these types of criminals makes you happy, enjoy it. But remember, the next person they murder maybe somebody you love. Dan
 
Dan,

I thank you for your response but I think you have totally misjudged me. Criminals do not make me happy nor does their release. I am deeply saddened and disgusted about the horrible things that go one in our world. However, I do believe that one can change if they truly repent to God for their sins. Remember God loves each one of us unconditionally. As hard as it is for you to believe, there are inmates who are truly sorry for their sins and do change their lives. As well, we must pray especially for the ones that do not love God and do not repent for they are in great need of mercy. We must forgive our enemies. What credit is it to us if we love the people that love us? Christ himself taught us that. I am truly sorry for everything your family has gone through. I can’t even begin to imagine. Dan, you have no idea who I am or what I have been through or what my family has been through. We have experienced and are still experiencing a great deal of sorrow. So perhaps you could tell my children why there are drug dealers running around every corner and what has happened to our once happy family? You are not the only one that sin touches. Perhaps you could comfort my mother-in-law who has lost her son due to drug dealers. My point is, we are all hurting. But judging one another is not going to make things better. Prayer for all, our loved ones and especially our enemies is important. As a retired police officer, I understand your point of view. My father was also a police officer and I have heard it all. I do not blame you one bit for being angry. But you have to forgive-for your own soul. I am angry too…I want these guys to pay but I rest as I know God knows all and sees all and I MUST forgive. Even though my family has been shattered and I do not know when the pieces will be put together again, I put all of my trust and hope in God. For it is through humility that we all can really see Christ’s face. I will keep you and your family in my prayers and I pray for peace in your life. Please pray for my family too. As for justice, God is the ultimate judge. My agenda is pretty clear. I am not happy in letting prisoners out especially those who have committed very serious crimes and are at a risk to re-offend. Not once did I mention sexual predators, either. But I do beleive in mercy for those who repent and forgiveness for all. My agenda is to teach what Christ taught us and to live as Christ wants us to live. Christ forgave those who spat on him, beat him and crucified him. Christ is our example. Who are we not to follow his lead? Peace be with you and your family. I will pray for you and your family.
 
Both Hell and prison **do **work.

You don’t see Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot coming back and renewing their evil ways, do you?

Similarly, when we keep career criminals locked up, they cannot prey on the innocent people who walk our streets. And if we worked harder to keep the most violent and those most prone to recidivism locked up longer, prisons would work better.

When I was running for Congress, I was approached by a lady who wanted me to help right an “injustice.” It seems she met a man while working in the prison system and wanted him released so she could marry him. She admitted he committed a crime, but “he was young and on drugs.” She went on to say he should be out, but “while he has forgiven his accuser, his accuser won’t forgive him.”

So I looked into it. Yes. When “he was young and on drugs,” he raped a friend’s wife, and beat her so badly she suffered serious brain damage. Then he dragged her unconscious body up a railroad embankment and left her lying there, with her arms draped over the rail.

And every time he’s up for parole, this badly mangled, armless woman shows up in her wheel chair and speaks against letting him out.

Good for her!
 
:rotfl:

I just had to thank you for that laugh. When I was scrolling down the list of topics I thought “now there’s a bumper sticker!”

I needed that.
 
Linda Julia,
At no time did I ever judge you. It appears to me you may have those sentiments I mentioned. There have been many others in these forums and on this thread who also appear that way. I am sorry for the pain you suffer in your life. I do not suppose that the pain I have had, or that of my family is worse than yours or anyone elses. You seem to be a very nice person who’s heart is where it should be. There are no attacks on any posters or judgements of any posters in my post. I made some points as to how I view things, and suggested some people reexamine the consequences to themselves and society, if they see any validity to my views. i apologize if it came off as putting you down. That was no my intent.

I have listened to tons of podcasts of Catholic Answers Live. EWTN’s Open Line, and some other true Catholic teaching audios lately. Many point out that though God forgives any of us when we truly repent and have a firm intent to reform our ways. They also point out that we are still do our temporal punishment The best example is during the crucifixion of our Lord, Jesus Christ, the “good thief” ( talk about oxymorons ) repented to Christ. Jesus told him that He ( Christ ), would see him, ( The good thief ) in paradise that day. Christ did not bring him down off of his cross and relieve his suffering. Christ left him there to endure the suffering he was sentenced to for his crime. ( Paradise being the land of the dead where Jesus went after dying on the cross.) The thief was not set free among the citizenry, or sent directly to heaven. The thief had to pay, in human terms for his crime, although he was forgiven his sins by Jesus Christ Himself. Repentance gave him eternal salvation, not mercy for his human punishment.
We all pay for our crimes and our sins in very human terms. I hope to see purgatory,where I can be purified, ( That will take a long , long time) so that , after paying for my sins and transgressions against God and man, our Lord will allow me to behold the beatific vision. I hope for that mercy, in the afterlife, which I have not earned. I can only be given that gift, if God allows me, despite my unworthiness, to behold Him in all his glory. What a sight it must be.

Please accept my apologies for any wording in my posts that could reasonably be understood to attack you, impugn your integrity, or insult you. And as to sexual offenders, I only put them in the post because I loathe them, I despise them, and I consider them the most cunning work of satan himself. May God protect all of us, the entire human family, from these twisted, depraved, shadows of humanity. Dan.
 
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