If faith saves us why keep the commandments.

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sara888

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If Faith saves us why keep the commandments.

I as a Catholic believe and profess Faith mean’s and defines to abide in Gods Moral Laws.

How can we seperate them .?

I would like to see responses from all, but especially the Eternal Security Believers.

Sara
 
Do you mean faith alone? If so, faith alone doesn’t save us. Baptism is necessary for salvation, as is confession of sins to a priest. I don’t understand what you mean by “eternal security believers”. I understand Faith to mean “the Faith”, meaning that which has been passed down to us from Jesus and His Church.

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
 
**Connie,

Eternal Security Doctrine is based on Faith and works, however, if they omit the works or commandments of God, church, communion, charity, etc, they still believe and profess in assured salvation = guranteed salvation or entrance into Heaven regardless of works or Gods commandments.
They believe their sins were paid for when Christ died on the cross, past , present and future sins. They also profess no sin can take away there ticket to Heaven, since they were choosen by God as his elect and pre-judged as being Saved or grafted. They claim Faith produces works however commandment keeping has nothing to do with Salvation . Its twisted and bizzare which you will see with some of the response if they respond.

Sara**
 
My name is Corinne. Connie is my mother’s name.
Thanks. I think I can assume that you were directing this thread at Protestants?

my Mother my Confidence,
Corinne
 
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
Code: 
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 

In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 

I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:1-23
 
sara888 said:
If Faith saves us why keep the commandments.

I as a Catholic believe and profess Faith mean’s and defines to abide in Gods Moral Laws.

How can we seperate them .?

I would like to see responses from all, but especially the Eternal Security Believers.

Sara
Click to expand...

Not because works save, but because:​

  1. God has prepared good works for the elect to do
  2. …since He is a Holy God,
  3. …and commands those who claim to be His to be holy
  4. …so that it may be known by the unregenerate that He is Holy; that they might come to Him and be saved.
To name a very few reasons.

It is God’s Will - is that not a sufficient reason ? Or does God have to show that He is not being immoral in requiring us to do this or that ? Why should God have to be answerable to us ? If He Wills a thing - that thing is good: no other reason is needed. Whether we understand why He does a thing, is irrelevant; it suffices that a thing is His Will.

People who imagine that eternal security is a reason for unholy living, show that they have no idea of what is required by the fact of living by the grace of Christ. They don’t seem to realise that Christians are called to be, and live, and work for the glory of God, so that God may be glorified in all His servants do - not that they may be honoured, but that he may be honoured by their obedience, and that those who do not know Him may be drawn to Him by His Presence in those who are called by His Name. ES is not a reason for lying around self-indulgently - self-indulgence had no place in the obedience of Christ to His Father - and that obedience, is the pattern, model and cause of all Christian obedience. He works, just as His Father did and does; therefore, we must: in the same Spirit, for the same end, for the same Father. Christianity is not a dodge to get us out of suffering and inconvenience: it’s a cast-iron guarantee that we will share the Cross of Christ, in however slight a degree. We must share it - if we do not, we can share His Resurrection: it stands to reason: we can’t be resurrected with Him, if we haven’t died with Him. If we are in Christ - we will do His works, as naturally as the springs gushes with water: that is what a spring does, or it is no spring at all. So with the Christian’s good works - he can’t help doing them. Because that is the sort of Saviour He is in - One who does nothing but good.

The elect are not saved for their own selfish pleasure - they are saved by the Sovereign grace of God, Who gives as He Wills, to Whom He wills. So they are not entitled - given that they are body-parts in Christ’s Body - to live for themselves; St. Paul is explicit on this. ES does not imply otherwise; if we misuse God’s grace to us, and make His mercy an opportunity to sin on more and to increase in enmity to Him, then that’s our look-out - it is a danger against which St. Paul protests, and Calvin. Grace is not an opportunity or a reason for piling sin on sin - doing that, will only increase the judgement of God upon us; for people who do that, show that they are no Christians, but children of satan. To use God’s grace as an incitement to multiply our sins, is like eating in order to vomit up the food we are given - food is meant to nourish, not to be vomited up. So with grace. Anyone so hard of heart as to use the mercy of God as an invitation to commit Deicide - which is what at bottom sin is: the murder of God - is a heathen, not a Christian.
 
I agree with Gottle, I was just too lazy, and did a copy+paste of Paul instead of making my own response. 😃 (I’d also add Romans 3:8 and context).
 
**Lets see what Jesus teaches to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven

.Rev14"12": Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. **
**

Rev 22"14": Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. **

Shall I copy and paste the whole NT with regard to what real Faith in Christ represents and what one must do if we love and have faith in the Lord.

Rev12"17": And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

SARA
 
**gottleofgeersaid:People who imagine that eternal security is a reason for unholy living, show that they have no idea of what is required by the fact of living by the grace of Christ. They don’t seem to realise that Christians are called to be, and live, and work for the glory of God

But the question is what happens if you dont keep the commandments of God are you still going to Heaven.? Are you still part of the elect.?

You agree Faith produces works however you also agree commandment keeping is not part of Salvation. How can you seperate the two since they are part of each other. you see the verse’s above , I have hundreds more to copy and paste.

Sara**
 
sara888 said:
gottleofgeersaid:People who imagine that eternal security is a reason for unholy living, show that they have no idea of what is required by the fact of living by the grace of Christ. They don’t seem to realise that Christians are called to be, and live, and work for the glory of God

But the question is what happens if you dont keep the commandments of God are you still going to Heaven.? Are you still part of the elect.?

You agree Faith produces works however you also agree commandment keeping is not part of Salvation. How can you seperate the two since they are part of each other. you see the verse’s above , I have hundreds more to copy and paste.

Sara
Click to expand...

I agree with you Sarah,

When Jesus is asked “**what good must I do to possess everlasting life?”, **He does not even mention “faith” (a faith seperated from the works of obeying the commandments). When I ask Protestants, "What good must I do to possess everlasting life? They never give me Jesus’ answer. Nor do most Protestants believe in Jesus when Jesus gives this answer.

NAB MAT 19:16

The dangers of riches. Another time a man came up to him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to possess everlasting life?” He answered, “Why do you question me about what is good? There is One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." “Which ones?” he asked. Jesus replied “You shall not kill”; ‘You shall not commit adultery’; ‘You shall not steal’; ‘You shall not bear false witness’; ‘Honor your father and mother’; and ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
 
If Faith saves us why keep the commandments.

How can we seperate them .?

I would like to see responses from all, but especially the Eternal Security Believers.

That is the dilemna for many Protestants who tout this false belief. Perhaps you should remember that most faithful Protestants who believe in eternal security (or once saved always saved for the evangelicals/fundamentalists) don’t separate faith and keeping the commandments per se, except perhaps the most extreme fundamentalists who are known as “antinominans” which means anti-law (or anti-moral law of Christ). This group would assert as Luther did, that one is saved even by just giving mental assent and not our free will choice, hence the condemnation of the council of Trent in 1565 of antinomianism.

A good article on faith alone and what it is and isn’t was written by Jimmy Akin. Click here: Justification by Faith Alone

Ironically, today most all Protestants would also affirm that one is NOT saved through faith unformed by charity (Latin is fide informis) the charity or works or love, however you want to call it, but one is obligated in “keeping of the commandments.” They would agree that we have to keep the commandments and to their surprise affirm the council of Trents decree that ones faith has to be fide formata or faith formed by charity in order to be genuine faith that saves.

The typical Protestant doesn’t separate faith and keeping the commandments but what they say in their incorrect view of justification, is that we are justified (made righteous) first and always and then we are being sanctified (made holy).

That’s where they err. One is made righteous through faith (and baptism) at some particular moment in time, yes that’s correct, however, to say that one is made righteous in a puncticliar sense (that one is from that moment on **and always saved or justified or in Gods favor) **is false, unScriptural and even experientially untenable.

Salvation is a process, Phil 2:12, Mt 10:22 …Jesus says you will be pursecuted, but it is** the one who perseveres to the end who will be saved. ** The also deny sins that lead to death (mortal sins, 1 John 5) and many Protesants, in particular those who believe in eternal security don’t believe that we can turn away from Christ, yet we know experientially (through lifes experience) those who, as I said prior, have certainly believed and then denied Christ. We believe that we are being justified and sanctified at the same time and if we endure to the end we will be saved.

I used to be a fundamentalist Baptist and anti-Catholic who blieved in the “once saved always saved” doctrine many years ago and I can not but think of the Michael W. Smith song once a true believer. This presupposes that his friend was a believer at one time and then “fell from Grace.” (Gal 5:4)

Many Protestants when they defend “faith alone” or sola fide need to explain what they mean by the word “faith.” Again if its an active definition of faith then we agree as Catholics but if it’s a meaning of the antinomians and Luther then we reject it as did Trent and as God does.

Hope that helps.

chirsti simus non nostri

rc
 
****Bishophite said:don’t separate faith and keeping the commandments per se, except perhaps the most extreme fundamentalists who are known as “antinominans” which means anti-law (or anti-moral law of Christ).

I agree they will profess faith produces good works, but MOST Eternal Security or OSAS believers will profess they produce works out of faith .

HOWEVER THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION, I am not speaking about your fundie extremist , this doctrine applies to most Baptist if not all that profess and teach Nothing can intervene with salvation, no sin, etc.

Ask a Baptist, if they omit good fruits if they still gain entrance into Heaven since most claim they are among the elect and have already been saved, which is their basic doctrine since most Baptist if not All are.“antinominans”

Ask a Mormon, SDA sect, etc. these are not extremist groups ,.****
You will notice the conversation or debate become twisted and distorted.
Sara
 
Hello All,

Wasn’t it evangelist Jimmy Swagart that was caught with a Prosititue? Had all his vast amount of followers been following an “unsaved” “non-believer” as their instructor for all those years?

If God forces people to do good works once they are “saved” why are there not more Protestant Mother Teresas out there?

If God forces Protestants to obey once they are “saved” why do those who claim to be “saved” still sin?

Do those who claim to be “saved” have free will to disobey God? Can those who claim to be “saved” use free will to love God or choose hatred for God, sin and damnation?

God tells us that obedience to the commandments is love for God. Can those who claim to be “saved” use free will to freely choose to love or hate God or does God force them to obey like a robot (kind of, seeing that they still sin)?

INT 1JO 5:3****This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome.INT JOH 14:15

"If you love me, you will obey what I command." **NAB JOH 15:22 **

“If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.”
 
Howdy!

I always chuckle at the faith-alone believers.

All of St. Paul’s letters were to existing churches … to those that were already Christians … i.e. had faith.

If faith alone were true, his letters - responses to questions - would be short … “no worries, you’re good”

How is “perservere to the end” disregarded so easily?

michel
 
******Well said steve. Very nice, !

Sara./******B]

P.S. I dont get it, how hard is it for some to understand that Faith and commandment keeping cannot be seperated.

If Salvation has nothing to do with Gods Laws or Commandments then why have the commandments or why Follow them.? Its bizzare.! They have Faith and produce good fruits out of Love, yet the commandments or works have nothing to do with their salvation.?? It lacks logic.

SARA
 
sara888 said:
Well said steve. Very nice, !

**Sara./**B]

P.S. I dont get it, how hard is it for some to understand that Faith and commandment keeping cannot be seperated.

If Salvation has nothing to do with Gods Laws or Commandments then why have the commandments or why Follow them.? Its bizzare.! They have Faith and produce good fruits out of Love, yet the commandments or works have nothing to do with their salvation.?? It lacks logic.

SARA

Hello Sara,

I fully agree with you.

I once visited a web site which was devoted to telling people that they did not have to love God to go to heaven. It stated that one could hate God with all their hearts and still go to heaven through faith in accepting Jesus as their personal saviour. It makes no sence.

Why would God allow free will through which hatred sin and damnation flow if God did not tremendously value human free willed gifts of love for God? It is the fruit of love which God will be looking for on judgement day. Those who possess gifts of love for God will be brought through the blood of Jesus to become an eternal Kingdom for God.

NAB DEU 30:19

“I call heaven and earth today to witness against you:** I have set before you life and death**, the blessing and the curse. Choose life, then, that you and your descendants may live, by loving the LORD, your God, heeding his voice, and holding fast to him.” NAB EXO 20:5

“. . . you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their fathers’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but bestowing mercy down to the thousandth generation, on the children of those who love me and keep my commandments.”
NAB DEU 6:1

"These then are the commandments, the statutes and decrees which the LORD, your God, has ordered that you be taught to observe in the land into which you are crossing for conquest, so that you and your son and your grandson may fear the LORD, your God, and keep, throughout the days of your lives, all his statutes and commandments which I enjoin on you, and thus have long life. Hear then, Israel, and be careful to observe them, that you may grow and prosper the more in keeping with the promise of the LORD, the God of your fathers, to give you a land flowing with milk and honey." The great commandment. Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone! Therefore, you shall love the LORD, your God, with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength. Take to heart these words which I enjoin on you today. Drill them into your children. Speak of them at home and abroad, whether you are busy or at rest. Bind them at your wrist as a sign and let them be as a pendant on your forehead. Write them on the doorposts of your houses and on your gates.

NAB LUK 10:25

"Teacher, what must I do to inherit everlasting life?" Jesus answered him: "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He replied:

**"You shall love the Lord your God **
**with all your heart, **
**with all your soul, **
**with all your strength, **
**and with all your mind; **
and your neighbor as yourself."
Jesus said, “You have answered correctly. Do this and you shall live.”
Click to expand...
 
**

Sara-- You said: "I agree they will profess faith produces good works, but MOST Eternal Security or OSAS believers will profess they produce works out of faith .**

HOWEVER THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION,** I am not speaking about your fundie extremist , this doctrine applies to most Baptist if not all that profess and teach Nothing can intervene with salvation, no sin, etc."**

**Right, however they would also by the same token affirm that one has to repent of those “sins” that will keep one out of heaven as **1 Cor 6:9-10 says" Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God" and if one doesn’t then that person isn’t saved because he/she didn’t believe in the first place.

**As I said prior, the number of extreme fundamentalists that assert that no unrepented sin can take them away from Christ is very few, most affirm that one must confess his or her sins to God and “repent” in order to be saved; and they agree that adulterers, fornicators, homosexuals and those in sin can’t enter heaven. And that if someone doesn’t repent then that person wasn’t a believer in the first place. Of course this logic is not only unpersuasive but irrational being that no person can truly know what goes on in the heart of another; only God truly knows that.
**

Ask a Baptist, if they omit good fruits if they still gain entrance into Heaven since most claim they are among the elect and have already been saved, which is their basic doctrine since most Baptist if not All are."antinominans"

Ask a Mormon, SDA sect, etc. these are not extremist groups ,."

**Well, SDA’s don’t accept “once saved always saved” then are Arminian in their theology not Calvinist and believe we can loose our salvation. **
You will notice the conversation or debate become twisted and distorted.
Sara

Most fundamentalists/evangelicals won’t say that they can do whatever they want and still be “saved.” As I said before that position is very rare, most will agree that they have to keep the commandments as was your first question.
Generally speaking, when Catholics converse with fundamentalists/evangelicals and attempt to talk to them about the faith plus works issue, the typical fundamentalist/evangelical in his/her mind throws up a red flag simply because when they think of the word “works” they think of their own works, in and of themselves, yet they do do good works; it’s because the have been conditioned to think of the word “works” generally as a negative.

However, the Catholic generally thinks of faith and works as under grace as Gal 5:6 says…faith working through love…" As a former fundamentalist Baptist, I always thought of the faith and works as my faith and my works because we were told that from the pulpit. I make it a point when speaking to Baptists/evangelicals when the subject of works comes up to always try to make sure I clarify what “works” we are speaking of. If we are speaking of our own works then Catholics also affirm that those are usless, yet if we speak of our works under Gods grace i.e., Gal 5:6, Mt 25:40, then we can mutually agree that those works are Gods works through us that He blesses as His own. It is a matter of symantics and communication of terms. Again they also have to define what they mean by “faith.” If it is an active faith then works are obviously done and we both agree.

rc
 
not to mention we should do the BEAUTITUDES that Christ taught us
 
hee hee…

just a funny note on how the transations of the bible are so differant…

Luke: What is written in the law? How do you read it
I have been given this verse as justification of scripture alone…

“we must perservere to the end”

I have been told the reason why this doesnt mean the end of our life is because the end is christ… so this statement actually means we must perservere to christ…

not all protestants do this, but I love some of the hopes people jump through so that sola fida/sola scriptura is validated…

In Christ
 
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