If God already knows the future does that mean it is meaningless for us to be good people?

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Leave DT out of it! LOL Only joking. Seriously though, yes we know that there is in positive psychology what is called the hedonic treadmill, which says that people have a baseline measure of happiness, and no matter what happens to them they tend to return to that level. You use the word “fulfilled” rather than happy. Are you suggesting that people who do not believe in G-d can in no way ever be fulfilled?
 
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meltzerboy2 said:
So you mean the fallen angels are not happy with the consequence of their revolt against G-d,
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I don’t think the word would be happy, but rather a hateful defiance. Murderers are not happy; they express their miserable rage in hate. The devils hate man because man still has a chance to be saved and go to heaven; thus they want man to commit mortal sin to lose their salvation and union with God so man can have a share in their miserable lot.
 
Kei said:
A feat question with an easy answer that I’m sure you can relate to.

Imagine, you will, someone who ignores all spiritual duty but tries to fill himself with cars, money, sexual relations, material things. Will this many ever be fulfilled, truly, though he gets what he “wants”? The clear answer should be “no, clearly not”.
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The will of all people is oriented to the good. When people make choices, they are doing it to experience some good. Maybe not a moral good, but the goodness of a pleasure or a feeling (perhaps to excess). The will’s drive to obtain the good is, in part, a search for God, who is the ultimate good and the only true and perfect good that will satisfy a person. All pursuit of finite goods will never satisfy a person forever. It’s a hole that can only be filled by God.
 
No, because “belief” is not necessarily equated to “taking up of”. People who would not take up of God would not be fulfilled, because that is our purpose. Some atheist can still really be for justice of love, and in that sense take up of God without consciously ascenting to belief, necessarily. At least that is how it appears to me.
 
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Yes, I know a few. Would these people be happy in hell? Or would THEIR hell, that is, punishment be being happy all the time?

BTW, does the Church accept the notion of different hells for different people?
 
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meltzerboy2 said:
does the Church accept the notion of different hells for different people
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Yes. In the visions of St. Faustina’s, a nun canonized by Pope John Paul II in the year 2000, had a vision of hell, confirming the traditional Catholic view of hell. here is a video illustratinh]g what she saw:

 
Thank you for the video. I wonder why a nun, who later became canonized, would have a vision of hell? Perhaps to warn others as well as herself. Did St. Faustina also have a vision of heaven?
 
meltzerboy2 said:
wonder why a nun, who later became canonized, would have a vision of hell? Perhaps to warn others as well as herself. Did St. Faustina also have a vision of heaven?
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For the same reason God has always sent prophets to His People. Yes, she was also given a vision of heaven. Here it is:

 
Thanks again. All I can say is that it seems to me Catholicism (and Christianity in general, perhaps) has within it a lot of fear of punishment and desire for reward. In that respect, it is not so different from Islam. Only my observation and not necessarily a bad thing, just very different from Judaism.
 
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meltzerboy2 said:
Thanks again. All I can say is that it seems to me Catholicism has within it a lot of fear of punishment and desire for reward.
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Yes. Christ warned many times of the consequence of unrepented sin, the fires of hell and the reality of wicked spirits. but He obviously also spoke of the heavenly kingdom of God. Catholicism is the fulfillment and flowering of Judaism. thus all that happened to God’s Promised people in the Old Testament was a foreshadowing of the New Testament which would be fulfilled by Christ and lived through the end of time by the Church. Islam was an offshoot of a Christian heresy, thus it has smatterings of the Old Testament and New Testament.
 
I suppose it is a matter of reconciling Christ’s warnings to unrepentant sinners regarding the fires of hell with the love of Christ for humanity. This is apparently not so easy for some Catholics to do since it pulls the emotions in opposite directions. Hence, the phenomenon of scrupulosity in Catholicism.

We can argue till the cows come home regarding whether Catholicism is the “fulfillment and flowering of Judaism.” There are of course certain similarities in rituals and holidays, and definitely in its moral teaching. However, apart from the different ways we have of worshiping G-d, essential philosophical issues do separate the religions, one of which is the notion of hell, which most Jews of all denominations do not pay much attention to.
 
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Unsure if anyone has mentioned Divine Providence yet.

Basically, God gives us choices, like he did with Adam and Eve (Mate, leave just this one tree alone), because we have to choose to want to be close to him. It can’t be an abusive relationship where we have no choice.

He may know which way we choose, but he still gives us the choice. We also interact with others and are given the choice if we either help people or turn our backs. This is also so that we can grow together as people and a community.

If we had no choice, we would be slaves to God. That is an entirely different set of questions.

Think of it like this, you did something wrong as a child, and now you feel bad and you apologise, that feels good. Now what if your sister pinched you and you pinched back, and she told on you, sure you were wrong, and you are sorry but Mum is forcing you to apologise, the feeling is a very different one.
 
meltzerboy2 said:
I suppose it is a matter of reconciling Christ’s warnings to unrepentant sinners regarding the fires of hell with the love of Christ for humanity. This is apparently not so easy for some Catholics to do
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Yes; Jesus described sin as slavery; and Satan as the tempter, and the fires of hell as eternal. As for scrupolosity, that is sometimes a stage that people go through on their initial journey toward a desire for holiness; thus the Church provides guidance on how to persevere through it. Just for the record. For people to go to hell they have to be in the state of mortal sin, not all sins are mortal. A true conversion is a transformation of heart, a lifelong process of uprooting everything from the heart that separates us from God.

As for the reality of hell there’s plenty of evidence for it. As for Judaism, that religion no longer has the characteristics nor the continuation we see alive and active in the Old Testament; long gone are the miraculous events that were a hallmark in the Old Testament. Catholicism since it’s foundation retains its complete and official teachings, the three levels of priesthood we saw in the Old Testament, a perpetual sacrifice offered every hour every day upon altars everywhere in the world wherever there are Catholic Churches, a visible leader, a stream of prophets throughout the ages along with an unbroken history of miraculous events, just as were seen in the times of the Old Testament throughout the New. Just one example would be the miracles at Fatima and the vision of hell given to the three children in Portugal in 1917, predicting the spread of Communism and the Second World War. It was on the anniversary of that event that Pope John Paul II was shot, thus He met with one of the children seers who became a nun (Sr. Lucia) Here is a short video about the miracle of the sun at Fatima witnessed by 70,000 people:

 
meltzerboy2 said:
This is interesting. A question: do those who reject G-d therefore LACK “the divine initiative in the work of grace” or do they REJECT that divine initiative?
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God bless you Meltzerboy2 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your questions.
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I believe the best I can do is to give you the Official Church teaching on the subject as follows:
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.
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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience.

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THE THEORY OF PREDESTINATION prævisa merita

THIS THEORY, CHAMPIONED BY all Thomists and a few Molinists (as Bellarmine, Francisco Suárez, Francis de Lugo):

Asserts that God, by an absolute decree and without regard to any future supernatural merits, predestined from all eternity certain men to the glory of heaven, and then, in consequence of this decree, decided to give them all the graces necessary for its accomplishment. End quote.


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Continue
 
Continuation
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CCCS 1996-1998; This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming TOTALLY from God’s decision and surpassing ALL power of human intellect and will.
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John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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Our cooperation with the grace of God is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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As we see above, we don’t have free will to choose God and heaven, only God can choose heaven for us.

As it is described above, of course AFTER our Justification we all happily say YES to God’s call to Eternal Life.
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COUNCIL OF TRENT Session 6 Chapter 8
… We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which PRECEDE justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification.
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As you see above Meltzerboy2, NO ONE rejects God’s call to heaven, those whom God did not predestined to heaven, God did not called them to Eternal Life in Heaven.

Of course, how could anyone reject an invitation, who NEVER HAD the invitation?
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God bless you Meltzerboy2 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin
 
“phil19034 said:
Latin said:
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Usagi:
No. The outcome is known. It is not predetermined.
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Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that some are predestined for Heaven. But the Church also teaches that no one is predestined for hell.
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God bless you Phil19034 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Let’s see what the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect has to say about it.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.

Quote: Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven.

(b) one to the pains of hell.

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
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The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:
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The Catholic reprobation is NEGATIVE REPROBATION.

Merely implies the absolute will not to grant the bliss of heaven, though not positively predestined to hell, yet they are absolutely predestined not to go to heaven (cf. above, I, B).
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The Calvinistic reprobation is POSITIVE REPROBATION.

Calvinistic reprobation means the absolute will to condemn to hell. End quote.


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The above teaching is clear, anyone can understand it.
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I don’t believe I have to explain, those who are not predestined to heaven, they don’t get God’s invitation to heaven, plain and simple.
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So, who can reject God, as the predestined to Heaven NEVER REJECT God (DE FIDE), and those who are not predestined to Heaven they NEVER HAD/HAVE A CHANCE TO REJECT God?
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God bless you Phil19034 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin
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Thanks for the video and your (name removed by moderator)ut regarding Catholic thought and belief. My question is if Catholicism is the flowering and fulfillment of Judaism, as you state, then why are miracles of the kind found in the Old Testament, on such a broad scale, still needed? Judaism believes they are no longer necessary since we now have sufficient faith in G-d and His Law without them. Or do we? We are being tested daily in our world regarding our faith without the appearance of grand miracles and with the appearance of human evil and natural catastrophes of all sorts. Miracles of a personal nature do occur nonetheless every day, and not only to those who pray for them. Thus the choice, the free will to believe or not remains ours, now more than ever before.
 
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Gab123,
re: “When God makes a soul He already knows the glory that is in store for every soul He makes. God knows that many would and will turn away from Him; thus He sent a savior to save everyone that wants to be saved. Thus even the most wicked soul has a place in heaven if that person responds to God’s grace.”

But does He know before He makes a specific soul that that soul will not respond to His grace?
 
Thank you for your reply. There are several subtle nuances in your argument. My question is not meant to be offensive, only seeking clarification: is what you state the acceptable view of the Catholic Church or is it more in line with heretical movements or perhaps Jesuit thinking?
 
Well, I question whether these people are truly happy. They’re just attached to their misery or things/behavior that make them miserable.

The Church has taught that the punishments of hell are not the same for everyone. The grade of punishment will depend upon the person. The idea of a limbo for infants is essentially, in some respects, a “hell” (people are often uncomfortable with the negatie connotations of the word) in which there isn’t punishment, just not receiving the beatific vision of God. (Note: A limbo for infants is just theological speculation, not doctrine, and it was more popular some decades/centuries ago, but I just used it as an illustration here.)
 
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