If God already knows the future does that mean it is meaningless for us to be good people?

[meltzerboy2]

Were the teachings of Jesus about the fires of hell, the slavery of sin, and the evil of Satan derived from the Hebrew Bible (OT) or were they something new that people had not heard about or known before? I ask this because hell was not a preoccupation of Judaism before the advent of Christianity and Satan was not regarded as the evil fallen angel that he is taken to be in Christianity. According to Judaism, there is no battle between G-d and HaSatan. Rather, the latter is considered to be the tempter (as you note) but in the service of G-d by testing the strength of our faith. So was Jesus adding something new and different to Judaism by His teaching of this or was He clarifying what was already in the religion but which the Jewish authorities of the day had misunderstood?

 

[meltzerboy2]

Thank you for the information. The subject of limbo (for infants) has certainly been a contentious one.

 

[Dovekin]

There is a story from St Augustine that may give some insight. Seeing the waters of the sea, he described our eternal destiny by imagining the many ways we try to capture the waters. A large pot holds more than a teacup which in turn holds more than a thimble. And someone using just his hands probably loses all the water he tries to grab.

A little elaboration allows more dire scenarios, as ballons are stretched beyond their elasticity. Some burst, while others remain infact stretching to hold the water poured out.

Like all analogies, this can be stretched too far. I just mean to show how we, by our choices, may prepare ourselves to receive the glory God intends for us. It does not resolve the predestination issue, which is probably intractable, but maintains the desire of God to abundantly share with us in life and after.

 

[Wesrock]

Were the teachings of Jesus about the fires of hell, the slavery of sin, and the evil of Satan derived from the Hebrew Bible (OT) or were they something new that people had not heard about or known before? I ask this because hell was not a preoccupation of Judaism before the advent of Christianity and Satan was not regarded as the evil fallen angel that he is taken to be in Christianity. According to Judaism, there is no battle between G-d and HaSatan. Rather, the latter is considered to be the tempter (as you note) but in the service of G-d by testing the strength of our faith. So was Jesus adding something new and different to Judaism by His teaching of this or was He clarifying what was already in the religion but which the Jewish authorities of the day had misunderstood?

A bit of both. Also, I think the idea of Hell you see taught by Jesus was a way of Jewish thinking at the time of his arrival. There were more diverse approaches to scripture.

I’ve been told that Judaism makes no connection between the serpent in Eden and Satan, for example. But when I was reading one of the deuterocanonical books written in the century or two prior to Jesus’ ministry I encountered a verse that made that exact connection, so this wasn’t just a Christian innovation, but something that existed prior to and during Jesus’ times.

I’ll see if I can track it down. It was during my own devotional reading and I didn’t flag it.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Sometimes we are warned to change our ways.

Jonah

Book of Jonah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[meltzerboy2]

Thanks. I would be interested in reading that. There were many different varieties or sects of Judaism during that time, so it would not be surprising to me that at least one should make the connection. But even so, this does not necessarily mean that Satan is evil. He may have been taking orders from G-d by testing the faith and will of Adam and Eve.

 

[joseie]

Back to the main point( that God knows our destiny so what is the use of being good).This will appear to be tricky but actually simple.As already pointed out here by many ,the key is that God knows your fate is such and such because you do such and such.If you were doing differently,God would have seen differently.To explain, the fact is that God if want can jump to a future date and watch the scene in advance.He find that you did a grave sin,did not repent,and is going to hell.Except expressing sympathy,what God can do? Suppose he comes back to the present and some how prevent you from doing the sin.But if that be the case,he could not have,in the first place seen you as sinned man going to hell.Is it not?
In short God is not bothered to jump to the future and see things in advance because there is absolutely no use of it.Even if he see,it is what will happen actually.To say that he could have stopped it before it reached at such a stage in future,is therefore meaningless.

 

[phil19034]

Latin:

Usagi:

No. The outcome is known. It is not predetermined.

Yes, the Catholic Church teaches that some are predestined for Heaven. But the Church also teaches that no one is predestined for hell.

God bless you Phil19034 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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Let’s see what the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect has to say about it.
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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Predestination of the elect.

Quote: Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost, there MUST EXIST a twofold predestination:

(a) one to heaven.

(b) one to the pains of hell.

However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine “reprobation,” so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.
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The COUNTERPART of the predestination of the good is the decree the Divine "reprobation."
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The conceptual difference between the two kinds of reprobation lies in this:
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The Catholic reprobation is NEGATIVE REPROBATION.

(Etc)

First: the way you made your post, I can’t tell what your are quoting vs what is your own words, so it’s a little confusing.

Regardless, I feel you are attempting to oversimplify a very nuanced Church teaching and I fear you may be boardering on Predestinarianism either from the viewpoint of Calvinism or Jansenism.

Predestinarianism

Predestinarianism is a heresy not unfrequently met with in the course of the centuries which reduces the eternal salvation of the elect as well as the eternal damnation of the reprobate to one cause alone, namely to the sovereign will of God, and thereby excludes the free cooperation of man as a...

www.catholic.com

God wills no one to be in hell. And we are all “invited” because we God gives the gift of faith to all, however, not everyone accepts it.

If Heaven is a “club,” then our time on earth & in purgatory is the waiting line. In this analogy, the elect are given “vip treatment” and get to move right on in without having to wait in line, when they show up, they go right in. While the unelect stay in line until they are let in, or they choose to get out of line.

Those who choose to get out of line (by sin) risk hell, unless they get back in line. But it comes a harder path for them because they are now “further back in the line.”

God Bless

 

[QwertyGirl]

There are not multiple actual futures. Our choices are free, but ultimately we make a particular choice and not others … and God knows, in eternity, what we do choose. But He knows it because we choose it; he doesn’t predetermine our choices or force us to do anything.

This is the part I have never been able to get past. If God knows how things are going to shake out at the end, and say I am an evil person with an evil soul, then why would he create me (physiclaly or spiritually) to begin with? It is his choice, to make that decision based on what he knows (which is everything). So how do we get around the understanding that he then created evil?

I have asked this question many times over the years, and I have never received a solid answer. Most of the clergy and theologians I have asked respond with something along the lines of “He knows, but He still gives you free will to choose.” But that doesn’t answer the question at all. For me, the question is one of “why”. Why would he create someone/thing that he knows ahead of time will, without doubt, evolve into evil?

 

[Wesrock]

I think I found what I was referring to:

Wisdom 2:23 - 24: …for God created us for incorruption, and made us in the image of his own eternity, but through the devil’s envy death entered the world, and those who belong to his company experience it.

This one is more of an allusion than a direct connection, though it fits with Christian interpretation of the events in the Garden. I am not sure if this is the one I was thinking of; it may be. The Book of Jubilees and Enochian literature are also pre-Christian and, while not in the Roman Catholic Bible, do make connections between Satan leading fallen angels and contain stories about fallen angels, something modern Judaism rejects, as I understand it.

I’m not saying Christianity and that type of Enochian philosophy is one and the same, but merely trying to point out that such concepts did exist in some first century Judaism traditions and weren’t just Christian innovations.

 

[Wesrock]

“Ahead of time” may be, in part, a stumbling block here.

 

[goout]

Usagi:

There are not multiple actual futures. Our choices are free, but ultimately we make a particular choice and not others … and God knows, in eternity, what we do choose. But He knows it because we choose it; he doesn’t predetermine our choices or force us to do anything.

This is the part I have never been able to get past. If God knows how things are going to shake out at the end, and say I am an evil person with an evil soul, then why would he create me (physiclaly or spiritually) to begin with? It is his choice, to make that decision based on what he knows (which is everything). So how do we get around the understanding that he then created evil?

I have asked this question many times over the years, and I have never received a solid answer. Most of the clergy and theologians I have asked respond with something along the lines of “He knows, but He still gives you free will to choose.” But that doesn’t answer the question at all. For me, the question is one of “why”. Why would he create someone/thing that he knows ahead of time will, without doubt, evolve into evil?

The question is answered literally all the time on this forum and many other places. You say it’s not a solid answer, but it’s the only answer. You are free (ironically) to accept it or reject it.

God creates because God is love, and that’s what love is and that’s what love does: create us for relationship. That’s it.

The constant problem with this question is time. Do you know the future? NO. You live in time. God is aeternal, or not subject to time. God does not exist in time. When we say God has “foreknowledge” of something, that is an anthropomorphism. An attempt to express the inexpressible.

God is not subject to “if this, then why that?..”, like we are. So when we ask “if God knows I will commit evil, why does he create me?”, we are asking a nonsensical question in regard to God because in God there is no time.

 

[QwertyGirl]

But God still knows what will be. If he knows one of his creations will be evil, why does he create it?

I have my own idea. My idea is that even the most evil among us are good in God’s eyes. It is us who are flawed in the way we view the souls of others. Of course, that doesn’t fall in line with Church teaching. But it does fall in line with the idea that we shouldn’t put ourselves in the positoin of judging the souls of others.

I guess, if one is to believe in God, this is a mystery that has to be accepted. I guess we have to be OK with not knowing how this one works.

Good discussions, here. I have enjoyed reading all of the responses and thoughts.

 

[goout]

And probably the best expression of this timeless love is marriage.
In marriage, two people come together in creative love. These two people are well aware of the human condition: suffering, death, hardship, etc…

And still, they bring forth children. Why? Because at the “end of the day” it is good to exist, even with all the potential hazards. We love each other, and we love to exist, and so we procreate.

 

[QwertyGirl]

It certainly seems to lend itself to the fact that humans love to procreate. Hope springs eternal!

 

[goout]

It certainly seems to lend itself to the fact that humans love to procreate. Hope springs eternal!

Yea, exactly. Hope. Faith. Those virtues are perfected in love. The outpouring of one’s self becomes creative.
Love creates without counting the costs.

 

[Gab123]

why are miracles of the kind found in the Old Testament, on such a broad scale, still needed? Judaism believes they are no longer necessary since we now have sufficient faith in G-d and His Law without them. Or do we?

For the same reason they occurred in the Old Testament; to remind the generations of the Church (the People of God) the reality of the supernatural. Especially today when science has replaced belief in God. At Fatima the call was for repentance and penance, if not a great terrible war would break out (WWII) and that the errors of Russia (at the time beginning in 1917) would spread throughout the world (Atheist Marxist Communism)

So the supernatural had never stopped. Simply read the lives of the saints throughout the ages, the visions they had, St Catherine Laboure, St Margaret Alacoque, etc. etc. and all the history of Marian apparitions throughout the centuries in the unfolding drama of Salvation History.

Nobody on this planet today even existed 150 years ago, and the people that did were living without electricity and getting around on horses; God is constantly reinvigorating the faith of the generation of pilgrims and sending prophets and shepherds to those who are still passing from the slavery of this world to the promised land of Heaven. In Judaism today there is no one religious leader or faith, no sacrifice, most are secular and non-believers and have made this world the focus of existence with Zionism replacing God for many…

But the New Covenant with God continues today.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Gab123]

For me, the question is one of “why”. Why would he create someone/thing that he knows ahead of time will, without doubt, evolve into evil?

Because virtue is possible only when vice is a choice. If the choice to be evil did not exist, then virtue would be meaningless, and God didn’t make meaningless souls. God could have made this world full of robot people without free will, where it was impossible for people to be bad. But then it would be impossible for people to be good. They would be good like fire is hot, without a choice. Thus the reason why even though God doesn’t cause evil, He permits it, because evil itself serves a purpose, namely, to bring good out of it. So God knows that some of the people He creates will choose to become evil, but they will choose it fully aware of their choices, thus fully responsible for their consequences, thus God permits it.

The same way God permits the laws of gravity to take effect even though He knows that some people will fall or jump off a cliff.

Birds glorify God by being birds; cows glorify a God by acting like cows; man being mad in the image and likeness of God, glorifies God by reflecting and acting like God. Since this is impossible for man alone, God supplies all the grace necessary grace and time to be transformed. All the good and saved souls in heaven could have equally ended up condemned and demonized. Either consequence glorifies God; the salvation of souls glorifies God’s mercy, while the damnation of some, glorifies His Justice. I either case man’s choice was the deciding factor; either to respond or to reject God’s gift.

All human beings are all connected, thus many saints had bad people in their genealogy. You might have had a wicked great great grandfather, yet through him ͏y͏o͏u are here today.

 

[QwertyGirl]

I don’t know that I buy that God creates evil so good can come from it. I may be way off here, but I believe we are here to learn. Those who don’t learn in this life, will continue to learn in the next. Actually, I believe we will all continue to learn in perpetuity. We are all on the path of learning, just not all at the same place.

I guess it is why I don’t really believe in the concept of hell. Where as Catholics believe there is no redemption once the human body dies, I believe God gives us endless opportunities for redemption, both in this life and in the next.

“Why does God permit evil” is a question that is right up there with “Why do we exist?” There are multitudes of circular theories, but truthfully, I think I have to accept that (in this life at least) nobody really knows for certain.

I love reading all of the responses here. They are so rich, and wnoderful food for thought. Including yours, so thank you!

 

[Gab123]

I don’t know that I buy that God creates evil so good can come from it.

Well, we know that evil exists and that God permits it, and that virtue is only possible when evil is a choice, so there’s your reason.

Those who don’t learn in this life, will continue to learn in the next.

Yes, the Church calls this Purgatory. Purgatory means purification, and it begins on earth but continues after death for those who died in God’s grace but did not reach the perfection and holiness God intended for them.

Actually, I believe we will all continue to learn in perpetuity.

Yes, God is infinite so part of heaven is always discovering more; but in order to enter heaven we first must be perfected. God is Perfect, thus to see God (Heaven) we have to be perfected.

I guess it is why I don’t really believe in the concept of hell.

Then you don’t believe what Jesus warned about, and you would then have to deny that Satan and wicked spirits exist. The Bible says otherwise. We see evil in this world in the news all the time; what makes you think there is no evil in the spiritual world, which itself is outside of time?

I think I have to accept that (in this life at least) nobody really knows for certain.

what is certain is that evil exists, and that God permits it; since He permits it, it is safe to assume that it has a purpose. If your spouse didn’t have a choice in loving you it would really be a spiritually meaningless relationship, like a relationship between you and a robot.