If God already knows the future does that mean it is meaningless for us to be good people?

[phil19034]

For me, it is more complex than that. God creates us, giving us free will, knowing that human beings will commit evil. That means He knowingly creates a situation where evil will occur. For me, that is the same thing as Him contributing to evil. Because I don’t believe God creates true evil, this is why I believe maybe our souls and minds are not capable of understanding how God looks at evil, Himself.

Yeah, this all comes down to freewill. If we were not capable of doing evil, then we would not have free will.

But if we were not given free will, then we would be like robots or animals, doing only what our instincts or programming allowed us to do.

My pastor once said, when answering this same question, that God determined that the amount of Good that would happen from giving us free will (even with all the evil that we would bring into the world) still out weighted not giving us free will.

Therefore, we have free will; and that’s why we also have evil in this world.

 

[Latin]

Thank you. I had basically drafted up the other post prior to reading this one.’

Latin:

AFTER our Justification as God’s children/elect we are all happily say YES to God’s call to Eternal Life.

Remember also that those who are justified and actually receive God’s graces can lose their justification. That is de fide.

God does know the number. He knows who will go to Heaven and who will go to Hell. We are unable to choose Heaven unless God gives us the graces to do so. He also offers graces to people who do not choose Heaven. But we go to Hell due to choices made under our own agency. Anyone who does end up in Hell deserves to be there because of his own demerit. I understand God’s role in this, but we can’t speak as if man has no culpability.

God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your post.

I noticed from your posts, you have really good Theological education, far greater then mine, as I never had any formal theological education.

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You said Wesrock:
Those who are justified and actually receive God’s graces can lose their justification. That is de fide.

Yes I know and I agree with you Wesrock.
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So, in catholic Soteriology we have two predestination to salvation.

One to heaven and the predestined cannot lose their salvation and cannot go to hell, they all must end up in heaven. – If even one of them would end up in hell, God would lose His omniscience, de fide.
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The other predestination to salvation called Predestination to Grace or Predestination to Initial Justification, they all must die in their sins and all predestined must end up in hell. – If even if one of them would end up in heaven God would lose His omniscience, de fide.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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Let’s see the way this would work out in a Computer simulation.
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For example:

Ten billion people ever lived on the earth.

One billion predestined to heaven. – They all receive all graces they need for their salvation and they all must end up in heaven, otherwise God would lose his omniscience, de fide.

For the Glory of their salvation belongs to God, their place in heaven (glory and position) will be determined by the kind of life they choose to live here on this earth.
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Two billion predestined to grace. – They all Justified and saved for a limited time period and they all must die in their sins and they all must end up in hell, otherwise God would lose his omniscience, de fide.

The culpability for they end up in hell belongs to God, because God never given the possibility for them to end up in heaven.
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Seven billion predestined neither to heaven, nor to grace, they never justified, they never received God’s gift of salvation. – As the result, they never saved, they never had a possibility for salvation or to end up in heaven, due to the “fall” and their sins they all must end up in hell, otherwise God would lose his omniscience, de fide.

The culpability for they end up in hell belongs to God, because God never given the possibility for them to end up in heaven.
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THE WAY I SEE IT
For the absolute predestination of the blessed to heaven is at the same time the absolute will of God “not to elect to heaven” a priori the rest of mankind, or which comes to the same, “to exclude them from heaven,” in other words, not to save them.
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I respectfully ask you Wesrock, please educate me by correcting my post if need any correction.

Thank you in advance.
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God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Wesrock]

The culpability for they end up in hell belongs to God, because God never given the possibility for them to end up in heaven.

Are you claiming that these people do not deserve Hell by their own demerits? That they have no culpability for their fate?

Also, please refer to CCC 1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”

God has knowledge of everyone who is saved and everyone whon is reprobate, but what you mean by predestination is apparently not what the Chirch means.

 

[Latin]

Latin:

The culpability for they end up in hell belongs to God, because God never given the possibility for them to end up in heaven.

Are you claiming that these people do not deserve Hell by their own demerits? That they have no culpability for their fate?

Also, please refer to CCC 1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”

God has knowledge of everyone who is saved and everyone whon is reprobate, but what you mean by predestination is apparently not what the Chirch means.

God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your answer.
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Your questions Wesrock:

1. Are you claiming that these people do not deserve Hell by their own demerits?
2. That they have no culpability for their fate?
   .

My answer of the first question:
Yes I am absolutely claiming, those people who are end up in hell, God is culpable for their eternal suffering in the pains of hell.
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Reasons:

1. God is culpable for the reason He did NOT predestined them to heaven.
   He who has been NOT predestined to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s them nothing.
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2. God is culpable for the reason He did not provided them all the graces necessary for their entrance to heaven.
   He who has been denied the necessary graces to enter to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s them nothing.
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3. Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
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   Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
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   Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
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God permits evil and sin for the only reason to draw good out of evil.

To conclude the good, God draws out sin and evil would be hell, that would be an absurd conclusion.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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Second question:
That they have no culpability for their fate?
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My answer of the second question:

1. We have the culpability for even the most miner sin we commit, and we suffer the consequences for it.
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2. We have the culpability if we will have little glory in heaven and we enter into heaven without any rewards, because our rewards depends on the way we act from our Initial Justification until we die.
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3. For those if any, who are end up in hell the culpability is 100 % God’s.
   He who has been not predestined to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s him nothing.
   .
   .

Also, please refer to CCC 1037
God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”
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MY REFERENCE TO CCC 1037
It is very simple; if God does not want “any one to perish, God only need to do to predestine everyone to heaven.

Those who are not predestined to heaven, everyone dies in the state of mortal sin, it is plain and simple. – Might add as I stated above, the culpability is 100 % God’s.
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God doesn’t need to predestine anyone to go to hell, for a person to go to hell, only need to do is to deny from him the grace of predestination to heaven, this is the cause to go to hell, and the effect is, ETERNAL SUFFERINGS IN THE PAINS OF HELL.
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God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[clarkgamble1]

…God already knows the past, present and future at every moment in time…

It is impossible for God to know the future. Because if God knows my future, He could surely write it down and present it to me and the entire world like He did the 10 Commandments, the writing on the wall of the King, and the sins of the crowd in the dirt. On reading it I could with free will arrange my life to do just the opposite of what He said I will do. That would contradict His prediction. So either God can not reveal His knowledge, or He doesn’t have it. There is no other alternative explanation.

 

[MT1926]

So either God can not reveal His knowledge, or He doesn’t have it. There is no other alternative explanation.

Why is God choosing not to reveal His knowledge not an alternative explanation?

Your entire argument is based on the presupposition that the only way God could know the future if He would reveal that future to us.

Your applying a rule that doesn’t have to exist for God to know the future.

Your thoughts?

God Bless

 

[clarkgamble1]

Why is God choosing not to reveal His knowledge not an alternative explanation? Your entire argument is based on the presupposition that the only way God could know the future if He would reveal that future to us.

If God chooses not to reveal His knowledge, that’s His right. But that knowledge still exists. And if so, it could be written down. And I using my free will, reading what He wrote down, could do something to create an opposite scenario to what He wrote down. Therefore He could, (1) - not write it down, or (2) - He does not have the knowledge. As it is unlikely that God could not be able to write it down. (He has in the past written things down.) The only possibility that is left, is that He does not have the future knowledge to write down.

 

[Wesrock]

MT1926:

Why is God choosing not to reveal His knowledge not an alternative explanation? Your entire argument is based on the presupposition that the only way God could know the future if He would reveal that future to us.

If God chooses not to reveal His knowledge, that’s His right. But that knowledge still exists. And if so, it could be written down. And I using my free will, reading what He wrote down, could do something to create an opposite scenario to what He wrote down. Therefore He could, (1) - not write it down, or (2) - He does not have the knowledge. As it is unlikely that God could not be able to write it down. (He has in the past written things down.) The only possibility that is left, is that He does not have the future knowledge to write down.

Eh, I would see it more as locking down into a self-fulfilling prophecy. Anything written down would still come about even if you tried to avoid it, as if avoiding it is what causes it to actually occur.

Also, might just be a square circle scenario. God can’t create a square circle. That’s just logically impossible. So is writing down absolute foreknowledge in the minutest details and then having something different be done. That doesn’t mean the knowledge doesn’t exist, just that we aren’t privy to it by logical necessity.

 

[Wesrock]

My answer of the second question:

1. We have the culpability for even the most miner sin we commit, and we suffer the consequences for it.

…

1. For those if any, who are end up in hell the culpability is 100 % God’s.
   He who has been not predestined to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s him nothing.

…

Those who are not predestined to heaven, everyone dies in the state of mortal sin, it is plain and simple. – Might add as I stated above, the culpability is 100 % God’s.

Would you agree with the statement that God is culpable insofar as He creates a reality in which He knows a person is among the reprobate, and that the reprobate is culpable insofar as his own demerits brought about by his own agency deserve the punishments of Hell?

 

[clarkgamble1]

…Anything written down would still come about even if you tried to avoid it…

Then my free will to change the situation described as written down is meaningless?

Interesting conversation here!!

 

[Wesrock]

It’s just spitballing over a rather absurd hypothetical which doesn’t really grasp God’s mode of being.

But your will would still be your own even in that situation. If you chose to try to change the results or not, the movement of the will towards any action or object would still be your own intrinsic will. It’s not a matter of your body or thoughts having movement or action imposed extrinsically.

 

[philipl]

God know all probable and improbable futures. Think of it this way. You are going to go knock on your neighbor door. Try to imagine all the paths you can take to get there. Every step you make will start to remove a path.

 

[fhansen]

If the future states that I am destined to be a bad guy there is no point in trying my best to become a good guy anymore right?

The “problen” is that we don’t know the future. We can live and act only in the present which means that it matters not a bit what God knows, in terms of our moral choices. He exists in eternity so He sees everything at once. We don’t.

 

[Dovekin]

Would you agree with the statement that God is culpable insofar as He creates a reality in which He knows a person is among the reprobate, and that the reprobate is culpable insofar as his own demerits brought about by his own agency deserve the punishments of Hell?

Great idea! Is God culpable for creating Hell in the first place? If Hell did not exist, nobody would go there!

Or do we create hell somehow…

 

[fhansen]

Wesrock:

Would you agree with the statement that God is culpable insofar as He creates a reality in which He knows a person is among the reprobate, and that the reprobate is culpable insofar as his own demerits brought about by his own agency deserve the punishments of Hell?

Great idea! Is God culpable for creating Hell in the first place? If Hell did not exist, nobody would go there!

Or do we create hell somehow…

Hell is said to be, ultimately, the complete absence of God. So hell is to finally, fully choose that absence, a total rejection of God.

 

[clarkgamble1]

How can a simple logical reasoning example be called …a rather absurd hypothetical…

And as to, “…which doesn’t really grasp God’s mode of being”… This is puzzling as I think no one has ever, or will ever grasp God’s mode of being.

You have stated, “Anything written down would still come about even if you tried to avoid it.” Sounds like you are saying the future is per-determined and we can’t do anything about it?

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

Would you agree with the statement that God is culpable insofar as He creates a reality in which He knows a person is among the reprobate, and that the reprobate is culpable insofar as his own demerits brought about by his own agency deserve the punishments of Hell?

Great idea! Is God culpable for creating Hell in the first place? If Hell did not exist, nobody would go there!

Or do we create hell somehow…

In hindsight, I should retract my use of the word “culpable” in that instance. However, Hell is also within God’s sovereignty and Creation. God does “send” people to Hell, but not arbitrarily as if they didn’t deserve it by choices taken under their own agency.

When we talk about people veing predestined to Heaven, it doesn’t just mean they go to Heaven. It means they were elected for something that they could not have done on their own. Anyone who ends up in Hell get there because of things they did on their own.

 

[Wesrock]

Wesrock:

How can a simple logical reasoning example be called …a rather absurd hypothetical…

And as to, “…which doesn’t really grasp God’s mode of being”… This is puzzling as I think no one has ever, or will ever grasp God’s mode of being.

You have stated, “Anything written down would still come about even if you tried to avoid it.” Sounds like you are saying the future is per-determined and we can’t do anything about it?

No one fully comprehends God. Still, there are some things we can contemplate, such as God’s eternity, which have bearing on questions of “foreknowledge” and before and after in respect to God. Your logical reasoning example doesn’t conclude to what you think it concludes, as it neither undermines God’s knowledge nor the idea that we have intrinsic agency and culpability over our own choices, and I think you would be better served to look at both Thomism and Molinism for models of God’s Providence and free will.