If God already knows the future does that mean it is meaningless for us to be good people?

[clarkgamble1]

I think you would be better served to look at both Thomism and Molinism for models of God’s Providence and free will.

I will do that.

 

[Wesrock]

I think that’s good!

People approach the concept of free will with different definitions, too. Insofar as I understand, it simply means that I have ownership of the decisions I made. That the decision came from me. It’s not a matter of some extrinsic force controlling my thoughts or moving my limbs and moving my mouth against my will.

Even if my will does work in a deterministic way and I exist in a pre-constructed maze – and I’m not saying it is deterministic in that way; only if – it is still my will operating of its own volition, not a matter of me being moved by invisible strings against my will. The movement of my will towards external objects originated intrinsically from me and who I am.

 

[Rhys_Thomas_00]

No. You’re still very much free to choose your own destiny. God merely already knows what you will choose, it doesn’t mean that you are predetermed to do something because predetermination conflicts with free will.

 

[MT1926]

Clark,

Thanks for the response.

I’m still having trouble following your reasoning here.

If God chooses not to reveal His knowledge, that’s His right.

Agreed

But that knowledge still exists .

Agreed

And if so, it could be written down.

Agreed. It could. Also, we know that it also has been written down in the past.

And I using my free will, reading what He wrote down, could do something to create an opposite scenario to what He wrote down.

This is where you lose me. You are once again basing your entire argument on an assumption.

You are making the assumption here that you were given the ability to read what is written down. How do you know some event from your future wasn’t already presented to you and at the present moment you don’t have the ability to understand what is being presented to you.

It seems to me you are trying to make God play be your rules and if He were to play by your rules then you would win.

I’m not sure if you can see where I am going with this, but basically you are saying if I had God’s power (to see the future) then I would also have the power to change said future. Therefore, since statement A is a true statement, then it is only logical to conclude that it would also be true to say God can’t have the power to know the future since I would be able to change the future(if I had His power).

You’re trying to disprove something that God has by using saying if I had that power (which we agree you don’t) then God wouldn’t be able to have that power?

I’m not sure if that makes sense or not.

Your Thoughts?

God Bless

 

[Gab123]

It is impossible for God to know the future. Because if God knows my future, He could surely write it down and present it to me and the entire world like He did the 10 Commandments, the writing on the wall of the King, and the sins of the crowd in the dirt. On reading it I could with free will arrange my life to do just the opposite of what He said I will do.

Understand what the word Eternity means. An Eternal Being is outside of time itself. Even the Big Bang theory explains that time and matter came into existence together. Thus the cause of time is outside of time itself. The future is part of time. Time is a measurement of change. Thus Being outside of time knows the future of those inside of time. One analogy would be a film on DVD. The beginning through the end is on that DVD. If you watched the film Gone With the Wind if you already know the outcome of of all the character’s actions and decisions captured on the film in time.

 

[fhansen]

Wesrock:

Latin:

The culpability for they end up in hell belongs to God, because God never given the possibility for them to end up in heaven.

Are you claiming that these people do not deserve Hell by their own demerits? That they have no culpability for their fate?

Also, please refer to CCC 1037

God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”

God has knowledge of everyone who is saved and everyone whon is reprobate, but what you mean by predestination is apparently not what the Chirch means.

God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Thank you for your answer.
.

Your questions Wesrock:

1. Are you claiming that these people do not deserve Hell by their own demerits?
2. That they have no culpability for their fate?
   .

My answer of the first question:
Yes I am absolutely claiming, those people who are end up in hell, God is culpable for their eternal suffering in the pains of hell.
.

Reasons:

1. God is culpable for the reason He did NOT predestined them to heaven.
   He who has been NOT predestined to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s them nothing.
   .
2. God is culpable for the reason He did not provided them all the graces necessary for their entrance to heaven.
   He who has been denied the necessary graces to enter to heaven, may exhaust all his efforts to attain heaven: it avail’s them nothing.
   .
3. Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
   .
   Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,
   .
   Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
   .

God permits evil and sin for the only reason to draw good out of evil.

To conclude the good, God draws out sin and evil would be hell, that would be an absurd conclusion.
.

Continue

This kind of God, you’d have to admit Latin, would be a worthless untrustworthy pos

 

[Latin]

Would you agree with the statement that God is culpable insofar as He creates a reality in which He knows a person is among the reprobate, and that the reprobate is culpable insofar as his own demerits brought about by his own agency deserve the punishments of Hell?

God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Very good question.

FIRST
God created the reality, the pre-constructed maze-/Design/Plan/Universal Script, down to the minutest detail and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
.
SECOND
We are God’s creation, includes our agency with our limited free will. – We can do everything what God permits us to do, what God does not permits us to do we CAN NOT do and that act does not happen.
.
THIRD
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
.
NOW I’M READY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.

God created the reality, the pre-constructed maze-/Design/Plan/Universal Script, it is absolutely perfect as God is perfect.
.
The end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
If there is no flaw in God’s system, will be everyone saved for the Glory of God. – We can be sure with an absolute certainty, there is no flaw in God’s system.
.

If would be any flaw in the system, like God’s recreation (2 Cor.5:17) of a person would fail, by a person would deserve the punishments of Hell, that would be God’s failure of His recreation of that person and the culpability would be 100 % God’s.
.

Everyone who understand the message in the Book of Jonah knows, God promised hell and distraction to all ninevites for the reason to pay attention, and He provided universal salvation to them.

God working with the same principle in the New Testament as well, God and His principles does not change. – Promise hell to pay attention and provides heaven.
.

Continuation

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

FOR THE REASON TO PROVE MY ABOVE STATEMENTS I present a citation from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence.
.
Life everlasting promised to us, (Romans 5:21); but unaided we can do nothing to gain it (Rom.7:18-24).
.
This, the beneficent purpose of an all-seeing Providence, is wholly gratuitous, entirely unmerited (Romans 3:24; 9:11-2).
.
It extends to all men (Romans 2:10; 1 Timothy 2:4), even to the reprobate Jews (Romans 11:26 sq.); and by it all God’s dealings with man are regulated (Ephesians 1:11).
.
It extends to every individual, adapting itself to the needs of each (St. John Chrysostom, “Hom. xxviii in Matt.”, n. 3 in “P.G.”, LVII, 354).
.
His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
.
That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God.
.
The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
.
Thus things happen contingently as well as of necessity (I, Q. xxii, a. 4), for God has given to different things different ways of acting, and His concurrence is given accordingly (I, Q. xxii, a. 4).
.
Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.
.

Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
.

Hence Providence is at once universal, immediate, efficacious, yet all alike postulate Divine concurrence and receive their powers of operation from Him (I, Q. xxii, a. 3; Q. ciii, a. 6); efficacious, in that all things minister to God’s final purpose, a purpose which cannot be frustrated (Contra Gent., III, xciv);
.
In spite of sin, which is due to the willful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
Sin is not ordained by the will of God, though it happens with His permission.
.
Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;
.
Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”
.
Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
.

God bless you Wesrock and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Benadam]

God works in pairs and opposites. They got a bit more extreme when death and sin entered the picture. God made us self determined creatures. I am so greatful He knows the end we all determine for ourselves. That way all those determined to not be what God intends them to be will have become what was needed for those who do.

 

[MonteRCMS]

It’s frustrating that God knows so much more than we do.

 

[clarkgamble1]

re: “Your Thoughts?”

"You are making the assumption here that you were given the ability to read what is written down. " Yes, all this is taking place in my present state of knowledge, in my now. I can read it fine if He writes his prediction in English.

“…it would also be true to say God can’t have the power to know the future since I would be able to change the future (if I had His power).” True except for last part. I don’t need His power, I already have the power to do something to nullify His written prediction by exercising my free will. For instance if He said I will have chicken for supper tonight, I could easily order beef.

 

[clarkgamble1]

I’m OK with the idea that of the infinite number of things that could happen tomorrow, God knows of the possibility of them all, each and every one. But I do not believe He can pin down and know a specific one as certain, write it down, and present it to me for reading. It would be too easy to arrange things so that what He wrote didn’t happen.

 

[MT1926]

"You are making the assumption here that you were given the ability to read what is written down. " Yes, all this is taking place in my present state of knowledge, in my now. I can read it fine if He writes his prediction in English.

My only response here is what I said earlier.

It seems to me you are trying to make God play be your rules and if He were to play by your rules then you would win.

“…it would also be true to say God can’t have the power to know the future since I would be able to change the future (if I had His power).” True except for last part. I don’t need His power, I already have the power to do something to nullify His written prediction by exercising my free will. For instance if He said I will have chicken for supper tonight, I could easily order beef.

I think we are talking past each other. I never said God’s power is your ability to chose beef over chicken. God’s power is the ability to know your future. The only point I’m trying to make is him not sharing the future with you doesn’t prove he doesn’t have it in the first place.

It all comes down to authority and who is in charge. You are saying if you are in charge and I can tell God what to do then it will prove He is not able to do something.

Here is the thing. On God’s end all He would have to do is say before you die you will do X. Can you honestly say for the next 40 years or however long it may be you will be able to avoid X?

Your response will most likely be well that’s not fair God would have to write down the day I do X and the time I do X and He would have to put a 24 hour window on X. Which would once again bring me back to your rules.

I’m not saying this proves God can tell the future all I’m trying to point out is your reasoning for why He can’t has a flaw in it.

Your thoughts?

God Bless

 

[Hark]

Read “The Consolation of Philosophy” by St. Boethius. The end goal is to answer something much like this question. Long story short, everything you ever will do is necessary according to that necessity named “hypothetical” but not according to necessity absolutely speaking. Aristotle’s physics is also helpful in understanding this distinction.