If God can be 'uncreated & unchanging', why not the universe too?"

[Ben_Sinner]

Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)

 

[Mike_from_NJ]

Carl Sagan brought up this very point.

Here is a two minute video: youtu.be/fKF25dtcpUg

Here is a transcript of the latter half:

What happened before that [the Big Bang]? Was the universe devoid of all matter, and then the matter some way somehow suddenly created? How did that happen? In many cultures the customary answer is that a god or gods created the universe out of nothing. But if we wish to persue this question courageously we must, of course, ask the next question: Where did God come from? If we decide that this is an unanswerable question then why not save a step and conclude that the origin of the universe is an unanswerable question? Or, if we see that God always existed why not save a step and conclude that the universe always existed – there is no need for a creation, it was always here? These are not easy questions. Cosmology brings us face-to-face with the deepest mysteries with questions that were once treated only in religion and myth.

 

[JurisPrudens]

Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)

We see with our eyes that the Universe is complex, corruptible and has internal contradictions. It changes with time, on the large scsale. We can trace its evolution. Thus, it cannot be eternal. There was Someone Who set it in motion.

 

[Tomdstone]

Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)

I am not sure that God is unchanging or that He is unMoved. After all, He came down from heaven and became man. He responds to the prayers of the faithful.

 

[Tim_D]

A creator must by necessity exist outside of their own creation.

How can God be the creator of “all things visible and invisible” if all things are eternal like Him? We know that there will come a time when the universe will burn through all of its energy and die. The universe, therefore, cannot be eternal.

Can you create a vase that is as old or older than yourself? It is an impossibility.

 

[StJoseph8]

Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)

The universe could be eternal. St. Thomas had no problem with that idea when he was constructing his 5 Ways. What needs to be explained with an eternal universe is why it is there at all. I think you might find Edward Feser’s Aquinas and Daniel Sullivan’s Introduction to Philosophy helpful.

 

[user1234]

Because the universe cannot explain it’s own existence, so it requires an explanation. The idea of the universe existing for eternity doesn’t make much sense to me. Because of entropy, our universe will end in “heat death,” being in a complete energy equilibrium. If it existed for eternity, that would have happened infinitely long ago, and because it’s not in this state, it hasn’t existed for eternity. I think. I’m not a physicist.

 

[Tomdstone]

What needs to be explained with an eternal universe is why it is there at all.

Are questions regarding purpose meaningful? Suppose you go into a forest and after a long while, you see a small lake. A child then asks why is this lake here. And his older brother says that the lake is there so that the rabbits, the squirrels, and other animals can have something to drink. Do you think that an answer like that is a correct description of why the lake is there or do you think it is possible that there really is no purpose to why the lake is there?

 

[StJoseph8]

Are questions regarding purpose meaningful? Suppose you go into a forest and after a long while, you see a small lake. A child then asks why is this lake here. And his older brother says that the lake is there so that the rabbits, the squirrels, and other animals can have something to drink. Do you think that an answer like that is a correct description of why the lake is there or do you think it is possible that there really is no purpose to why the lake is there?

I was talking about existence, not about final causes. Yes, I do believe that figuring out final causes are important in order to help describe what a thing is (the 4 causes). If anyone wants a better explanation on these topics, I would recommend Feser’s book Aquinas.

 

[Nixbits]

JurisPrudens:

We see with our eyes that the Universe is complex, corruptible and has internal contradictions.

What internal contradictions does the universe have?
pietrocontolini:

Because the universe cannot explain it’s own existence, so it requires an explanation.

Surely the same can be said of God. Because God cannot explain His own existence, so He requires an explanation.

 

[JurisPrudens]

What internal contradictions does the universe have?

Surely the same can be said of God. Because God cannot explain His own existence, so He requires an explanation.

Dialectical contradictions. Between the physical forces. Like gravity and dark energy.

Unlike the universe, God is not complex. He is simple, nchangeable and has no parts or elements. He is beyond sensible perception,unlike the universe.

 

[Nixbits]

It seems like you’ve dodged my questions, JurisPrudens. The issues around gravity and dark energy seem to me to be things that we don’t yet understand. That’s not the same as a contradiction.

As far as I can tell, your response did not address the explanation for the existence of God at all.

 

[JurisPrudens]

It seems like you’ve dodged my questions, JurisPrudens. The issues around gravity and dark energy seem to me to be things that we don’t yet understand. That’s not the same as a contradiction.

As far as I can tell, your response did not address the explanation for the existence of God at all.

There is no dodging of question. God is by definition the first cause. It is nonsensical to ask what caused Him - nothing could "cause Him. It is different with the Universe. The Universe obeys the laws, it changes and evolves - thus, it is imperfect. It shows there is a starting and an ending point for the universe, when(where?) it will be perfected. Thus, it is logical to ask, what(Who) caused it to be in this state, set up the laws and started this movement.

 

[Bradski]

How can God be the creator of “all things visible and invisible” if all things are eternal like Him? We know that there will come a time when the universe will burn through all of its energy and die. The universe, therefore, cannot be eternal.

This universe isn’t eternal (although it may be infinite). But existence itself may be eternal and uncaused.

That nice Mr. Occam had a realy good idea about removing anything that further complicates a system without adding to it.

God is unknowable. Quite possibly the existence of anything outside of the universe is likewise unknowable. So I’m going with the simpler answer.

Incidentally, the supposition that God is all powerful (He created the universe!) is just that. A supposition. Even if He did create this universe, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to presume that He has control over it.

And this universe may well be the only thing we can ever experience. It will therefore be, effectively, all of creation. All you can possibly say about God is that He created all we can ever experience. Which might not be all that there is.

Maybe we live in a second rate existence. We are in steerage and those in First Class are rather amused by how we behave and what we believe.

 

[Tim_D]

This universe isn’t eternal (although it may be infinite). But existence itself may be eternal and uncaused.

That nice Mr. Occam had a realy good idea about removing anything that further complicates a system without adding to it.

God is unknowable. Quite possibly the existence of anything outside of the universe is likewise unknowable. So I’m going with the simpler answer.

Incidentally, the supposition that God is all powerful (He created the universe!) is just that. A supposition. Even if He did create this universe, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever to presume that He has control over it.

And this universe may well be the only thing we can ever experience. It will therefore be, effectively, all of creation. All you can possibly say about God is that He created all we can ever experience. Which might not be all that there is.

Maybe we live in a second rate existence. We are in steerage and those in First Class are rather amused by how we behave and what we believe.

Not being an adherent of the Catholic faith, I can easily understand why you arrive at so many incorrect conclusions. Indeed, the whole basis of the faith is that God IS knowable in certain ways. You attempt to say that God is unknowable and then turn around and try to place limits on Him.

 

[JurisPrudens]

Not being an adherent of the Catholic faith, I can easily understand why you arrive at so many incorrect conclusions. Indeed, the whole basis of the faith is that God IS knowable in certain ways. You attempt to say that God is unknowable and then turn around and try to place limits on Him.

Technically, God is unknowable in terms of our own efforts. We can never “catch Him by the beard”. He is knowable in so far as He reveal Himself to us. It is either through positive revelation (Bible), or though the natural reason He gave to us. It is by this natural reason that we are able to look around and deduce that there must be a Cause and a Purpose for all that.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Is the universe unchanging? Obviously not. The uncaused cause is naturally a necessarily existing being. It is the unchanged changer, or unmoved mover. The universe is neither. It is composed of material that does not exist by necessity. And it is constantly in a state of change. Every material thing has a cause. The universe is just one more material thing. There is no reason to think it does not have a cause either. Or to put another way we only have examples of physical things having causes with no examples of physical things uncaused. Why should the universe be exempt? It seems like special pleading to say that the everything physical in the universe has a cause, but the universe itself does not.

In addition, the universe is composed of parts which require an explanation (or an outside cause) for how those parts came together.

In addition the universe would have had to exist for infinite time. Yet, it is impossible that there should have been an infinite amount of time before now. You could have a potential infinite, but not an actual infinite number of things. You for instance could not actually attain living for an infinite amount of time, because it doesn’t matter how long you have lived, you could always live longer, and therefore infinite amount of time is never reached. But if you say the universe is infinitely old then you are saying that an infinite amount of time has been reached, which is impossible.

In addition science tells us the universe had a beginning.

Etc

 

[Nixbits]

JurisPrudens:

There is no dodging of question. God is by definition the first cause. It is nonsensical to ask what caused Him - nothing could "cause Him. It is different with the Universe. The Universe obeys the laws, it changes and evolves - thus, it is imperfect. It shows there is a starting and an ending point for the universe, when(where?) it will be perfected. Thus, it is logical to ask, what(Who) caused it to be in this state, set up the laws and started this movement.

By defining God as the First Cause, I would agree that God is, by definition, the First Cause. But I would also observe that this is saying very little. It may well be nonsensical to ask what caused God. If so, it’s fortunate that I didn’t.

The assumption that change implies imperfection (in the metaphysical sense) and thereby implies purpose (i.e. a defined goal) is flawed. Justification is needed to support such an assertion.

Which leaves me with the same point I originally made: The existence of God (if He exists) requires just as much explanation as does the existence of the universe. So why subject them to different standards of explanation?

 

[kdbueno]

The universe was conceived according to heavenly means. The conceivable fact that the universe exist is universal

 

[Bahman]

Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)

The universe could be uncaused but it cannot be eternal.