If God can be 'uncreated & unchanging', why not the universe too?"

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Ben_Sinner said:
Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)
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Anytime there is “becoming”, there is time - a time when you were materially not what you are now, but you were that way. There is now, which is after that time when you were. And there will be a time, sometime, when you are materially different than you are now, the future. Something is moving you in that change, your “genes”, and your own actions (eating, sleeping, etc.). But your got your beginning material from something that was not you (from your parents), way back in the beginning of your appearance in time, immediately beginning to change toward what you are now, and toward what you will be materially, and then eventually no longer materially living.

So, even though it does not answer the “why?” question, your material is an example of a material being that was not, that is, that becomes, and then will not be.
Material is the reason - it assumes being in a specific form mechanically, being “transformed” into what it is supposed to be. And change of matter from what it was (your breakfast) into what it is (your hair) takes time. Mechanical (biological, in your case) mechanisms transform matter, and matter (and energy) is the composition of the universe, constantly being transformed. If the universe always did exist, it would have to be complete (fully formed and unchanging in all its parts) because any changing would imply becoming, which is incompatible with eternal being. It would also imply no “time”, since there would be no changing, therefore no notice of “before”, “now”, “still to come”.

God is not a being among the beings of the universe we know. He is being itself, etc. He is fully complete, not becoming more or better or more real. Something fully complete has no time. (and, let me tell you a mystery: in the resurrection, we will be that way with Him - eternal life will not be “time that keeps going and changes happening”, but it will be knowing all in one and knowing one in all).

How you doing, Ben? it’s been a while since I have responded to one of your posts.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
Originally Posted by Nixbits
The assumption that change implies imperfection (in the metaphysical sense) and thereby implies purpose (i.e. a defined goal) is flawed. Justification is needed to support such an assertion.
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What would you give as the rebuttal, Ben? If you know about change, movement, intention of the power that initiates movement, and how effective that one is who does to initiating… could you put the rebuttal into words for us, how you think a correct rebuttal would sound?
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Ben_Sinner said:
Why is it illogical for the universe to be eternal, uncaused, indestructible, and incorruptible?..but not illogical for God to have those attributes?

Why does the universe have to have a beginning and not God? What would happen if the universe DID in fact always exist?

(Without resorting to scientific evidence. I’m asking from a purely philosophical point of view)
Click to expand...
For the universe to be eternal, it would have no beginning, and no end, always existing. If it was always existing, it didn’t need a cause to exist, then it had to have existence as it’s nature. If it had existence as it’s nature, that means that it would be all that it could be, and not be subject to change, a thing changes if it does not possess complete existence or being, it has a capacity for change There is constant change taking place in the universe, it did not cause it’s own existence or being Change involves movement, movement is always toward being and completeness, the universe has for part of its nature potency and act, a capacity to become, to becoming, it can not move itself, or cause itself to exist. Logically there has to be an Uncaused cause, and an unmoved mover who we call God.
If the universe alway existed it is saying that the material world is God and that’s the heresy of Pantheism. God is the I Am Who Am, in other words, “I Am Existence” and Pure Spirit not matter.
 
ynotzap said:
For the universe to be eternal, it would have no beginning, and no end, always existing. If it was always existing, it didn’t need a cause to exist, then it had to have existence as it’s nature. If it had existence as it’s nature, that means that it would be all that it could be, and not be subject to change, a thing changes if it does not possess complete existence or being, it has a capacity for change There is constant change taking place in the universe, it did not cause it’s own existence or being Change involves movement, movement is always toward being and completeness, the universe has for part of its nature potency and act, a capacity to become, to becoming, it can not move itself, or cause itself to exist. Logically there has to be an Uncaused cause, and an unmoved mover who we call God.
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IMHO, a lot of unproven assumptions.
  1. If the universe was always existing, then it had to have existence as it’s nature.
  2. If the universe had existence as it’s nature, that means that it would be all that it could be.
  3. a thing changes if it does not possess complete existence or being, it has a capacity for change
  4. movement is always toward being and completeness
  5. Logically there has to be an Uncaused cause, and an unmoved mover
For #5, I don;t think that God is unMoved. God responds to our prayers and responds to the prayers of the Mass by performing the miracle of the Eucharist. By responding to our prayers, it shows that God is not unMoved by our prayers.
 
Tomdstone said:
IMHO, a lot of unproven assumptions.
  1. If the universe was always existing, then it had to have existence as it’s nature.
  2. If the universe had existence as it’s nature, that means that it would be all that it could be.
  3. a thing changes if it does not possess complete existence or being, it has a capacity for change
  4. movement is always toward being and completeness
  5. Logically there has to be an Uncaused cause, and an unmoved mover
For #5, I don;t think that God is unMoved. God responds to our prayers and responds to the prayers of the Mass by performing the miracle of the Eucharist. By responding to our prayers, it shows that God is not unMoved by our prayers.
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All five have been proven by accepted authorities (accepted by Catholics).
The five were given as a summary of the proofs in a sequence that should be regarded in this sequence in order to answer the OP, not given as proofs “from scratch”. Why re-write Aquinas when he is already free to read online?

As for number 5, you are appealing to human apprehension and emotion, to claim God is moved. Yet the same accepted authorities clearly show that there is “movement of operation” that is not about change nor about being moved, but the very “being in completeness” is “being of operation” which is movement, not “being of rest” like a rock on the ground. God’s “operation” is to inspire desire and prayer and give the answer to what he inspires us to ask for, to inspire the desire for participation in his being in us and to be united to us in the substance of Christ’s body in the Eucharist in fulfilment of the desire of union which he inspires in us. There is no “response” in God, as if he did not think about it until someone “nudged” him.
 
Tomdstone said:
IMHO, a lot of unproven assumptions.
  1. If the universe was always existing, then it had to have existence as it’s nature.
  2. If the universe had existence as it’s nature, that means that it would be all that it could be.
  3. a thing changes if it does not possess complete existence or being, it has a capacity for change
  4. movement is always toward being and completeness
  5. Logically there has to be an Uncaused cause, and an unmoved mover
For #5, I don;t think that God is unMoved. God responds to our prayers and responds to the prayers of the Mass by performing the miracle of the Eucharist. By responding to our prayers, it shows that God is not unMoved by our prayers.
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God doesn’t have to move, He is Omnipresent, present everywhere, there is no outside ofGod, we have our being in God, we are not part of God, for He is Simple, where is He going to move to? You don’t understand the concept of Pure Being. Yes He manifest His presence in Jesus Christ because He took on human nature, but God created that human nature, it had it’s existence in God. You understand God in this regard in a logical, but not an ontological way, not a metaphysical way, that’s why you can’t conceive the idea of God being the Unmoved Mover, or the Uncaused Cause It is understandable, because Ontology is a difficult study, and not a common one among many. If you think that these are unproven assumptions, then counter the arguments, and prove they are wrong. I am afraid you are up against thinkers like St.Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, and Plato to name a few. I tried to explain this to you before God moves others, all motion comes from Him, but doesn’t move Himself, doesn’t change.
 
ynotzap said:
God doesn’t have to move, He is Omnipresent, present everywhere, there is no outside ofGod, we have our being in God, we are not part of God, for He is Simple, where is He going to move to? You don’t understand the concept of Pure Being. Yes He manifest His presence in Jesus Christ because He took on human nature, but God created that human nature, it had it’s existence in God. You understand God in this regard in a logical, but not an ontological way, not a metaphysical way, that’s why you can’t conceive the idea of God being the Unmoved Mover, or the Uncaused Cause It is understandable, because Ontology is a difficult study, and not a common one among many. If you think that these are unproven assumptions, then counter the arguments, and prove they are wrong. I am afraid you are up against thinkers like St.Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, and Plato to name a few. I tried to explain this to you before God moves others, all motion comes from Him, but doesn’t move Himself, doesn’t change.
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There is no inside or outside God. You misunderstand the concept of Omnipresence.
 
Bahman said:
There is no inside or outside God. You misunderstand the concept of Omnipresence.
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How do I misunderstand Omnipresence? Enlighten me.

Acts 17; 28… (St.Paul) " For in Him we live and move and have our being…"
 
ynotzap said:
How do I misunderstand Omnipresence? Enlighten me.

Acts 17; 28… (St.Paul) " For in Him we live and move and have our being…"
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God is a spiritual being meaning that He cannot be located. This means that there is not any inside and outside of God. Omnipresence only means that God can perceive everything eternally.
 
John_Martin said:
All five have been proven by accepted authorities (accepted by Catholics).
The five were given as a summary of the proofs in a sequence that should be regarded in this sequence in order to answer the OP, not given as proofs “from scratch”. Why re-write Aquinas when he is already free to read online?

As for number 5, you are appealing to human apprehension and emotion, to claim God is moved. Yet the same accepted authorities clearly show that there is “movement of operation” that is not about change nor about being moved, but the very “being in completeness” is “being of operation” which is movement, not “being of rest” like a rock on the ground. God’s “operation” is to inspire desire and prayer and give the answer to what he inspires us to ask for, to inspire the desire for participation in his being in us and to be united to us in the substance of Christ’s body in the Eucharist in fulfilment of the desire of union which he inspires in us. There is no “response” in God, as if he did not think about it until someone “nudged” him.
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Playing on words. Of course, God responds to our prayers. So He is not unMoved.
 
ynotzap said:
God doesn’t have to move, He is Omnipresent, present everywhere, there is no outside ofGod, we have our being in God, we are not part of God, for He is Simple, where is He going to move to?.
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The Roman Catholic creed tells us specifically that God came down from heaven and became man. Further. God responds to prayer and becomes present in the Eucharist in every Mass. Do you say that God was already present in the Eucharist before the Consecration? If so, why have the Consecration prayers at the Mass? Why would they be necessary?
 
Tomdstone said:
The Roman Catholic creed tells us specifically that God came down from heaven and became man. Further. God responds to prayer and becomes present in the Eucharist in every Mass. Do you say that God was already present in the Eucharist before the Consecration? If so, why have the Consecration prayers at the Mass? Why would they be necessary?
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  1. “God” did not come down from heaven, but God the Son assumed human nature as one of the natures of his Person, the Son, becoming man.
  2. “God” does not become present in the Eucharist, but the bread’s and wine’s substance are changed into the substance of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. And wherever the body and blood of Jesus are, there also is his soul, and his divinity. And wherever the Son is, there too is the Father and their Holy Spirit.
  3. It is we who are moved to participate in Holy Thursday, the Last Supper, at every mass, joining the twelve in the one sacrifice for sin - though we may think we do it hundreds of times, we are only eating his flesh and drinking his blood once at the one new Passover, the one new covenant meal. We are praying the prayers to move us to that moment, not to move God today.
 
Bahman said:
God is a spiritual being meaning that He cannot be located. This means that there is not any inside and outside of God. Omnipresence only means that God can perceive everything eternally.
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God is spiritually present everywhere, because He sustains everything that He has created, He doesn’t create and then abandons what He creates We are in His Omnipotence and Omnipresence by necessity Nothing exist apart from Him, that is what is meant by “outside of Him.” Everything exists by His omnipotence, that is what is meant by "having our being in Him You fail to understand what I meant by my terms. God not only perceives everything eternally, but sustains everything eternally by His Omnipotence
 
Tomdstone said:
The Roman Catholic creed tells us specifically that God came down from heaven and became man. Further. God responds to prayer and becomes present in the Eucharist in every Mass. Do you say that God was already present in the Eucharist before the Consecration? If so, why have the Consecration prayers at the Mass? Why would they be necessary?
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God is present everywhere by His Omnipotence and Omnipresence, see post to Bahman. He manifests His physical presence is Jesus Christ, who has two natures, human and divine, through a mystery of Faith, the Transubstantiation, under the appearance of bread and wine. God is always present. But He is Pure Spirit, not sensed, but only known, By the Mystery of the Eucharist He once again assumes a physical presence, through a manifestation of Faith It is through Jesus who is human (also divine) that He is present physically. Jesus is also Pure Spirit in His divine nature, always present God is the creator of Jesus’ physical nature. He is always present to His creation, not like Deism, who believe once created, God abandons His creation, which is left to itself.
 
John_Martin said:
  1. “God” does not become present in the Eucharist, but the bread’s and wine’s substance are changed into the substance of the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. And wherever the body and blood of Jesus are, there also is his soul, and his divinity. And wherever the Son is, there too is the Father and their Holy Spirit. .
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God responds to the prayers of the Mass by performing the miracle of Transubtantiation.
 
ynotzap said:
God is present everywhere by His Omnipotence and Omnipresence, see post to Bahman. He manifests His physical presence is Jesus Christ, who has two natures, human and divine, through a mystery of Faith, the Transubstantiation, under the appearance of bread and wine. God is always present. But He is Pure Spirit, not sensed, but only known, By the Mystery of the Eucharist He once again assumes a physical presence, through a manifestation of Faith It is through Jesus who is human (also divine) that He is present physically. Jesus is also Pure Spirit in His divine nature, always present God is the creator of Jesus’ physical nature. He is always present to His creation, not like Deism, who believe once created, God abandons His creation, which is left to itself.
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Does God respond to the prayers of the Mass? I think you have to say yes. In which case, God moves. He is not unmoved.
 
John_Martin said:
  1. “God” did not come down from heaven,.
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Here is a part of the creed said by Catholics at Mass:
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
God true from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
 
Tomdstone said:
Here is a part of the creed said by Catholics at Mass:
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
God true from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
He came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
Click to expand...
As I said, “God did not come down from heaven”; thank you for the verification from our confession of faith that it was the Only Begotten of the Father, who came down from Heaven, from the Father, to whom we also pray, “Our Father, who art in Heaven”.

Thus, a Person came down from Heaven, one “in the likeness of a Son of Man”, as the prophet foretold.

As to God “being moved” by us in our prayer, have you not been told from Jesus’ messengers that “The father already knows what you need before you ask him, therefore pray…”
This is God’s ordering of his operation in his unchanging, yet operating, completeness - he provides without being moved, and the movement is movement of us to desire from him, to turn to him in our desire and ask, and then like the birds feed on the worms that show up, we go to the person holding out what he has provided, the Body and Blood of Christ - this would be there whether we desired it or not, but we would not go to the front with open hands and open mouth if Jesus had not told us where to go for our food and from whom to seek our food. We instead would be anxious for bread that perishes and go looking where he is not to be found.
 
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