If God can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, then why is it....

[Byzantine_Wolf]

If god can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, then why is it so impossible to believe that He could also use a 14 year old boy to bring forth ancient scripture and be a prophet of His church? This is NOT a question about doctrine. I would just be interested in knowing who thinks that God can do whatever He wants, no matter how little we may understand it at the time.

Annie

I’m afraid that’s a false comparison. You know the old saying, “We can put a man on the moon, but I can’t get my pants back by Thursday!”, even though the two situations are unrelated and with varying circumstances? It is similar to that line of thinking.

If you want to justify the foundation of Mormonism in such a way, then let’s apply that standard across the board. Does it not make sense that if God can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, that He can reveal a book over the course of a few decades to a man in the Arabian desert? Does this mean Islam is possible? Should you and I prostrate to Mecca and convert immediately? Of course not.

While doctrine may not be a direct part of the question, it is a vital aspect of it that we must examine. The ability of God to give revelation is not a question or a matter of doubt. What is a matter of doubt is the method of that revelation and the importance of it with what came before.

 

[Annie_B]

I’m afraid that’s a false comparison. You know the old saying, “We can put a man on the moon, but I can’t get my pants back by Thursday!”, even though the two situations are unrelated and with varying circumstances? It is similar to that line of thinking.

If you want to justify the foundation of Mormonism in such a way, then let’s apply that standard across the board. Does it not make sense that if God can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, that He can reveal a book over the course of a few decades to a man in the Arabian desert? Does this mean Islam is possible? Should you and I prostrate to Mecca and convert immediately? Of course not.

While doctrine may not be a direct part of the question, it is a vital aspect of it that we must examine. The ability of God to give revelation is not a question or a matter of doubt. What is a matter of doubt is the method of that revelation and the importance of it with what came before.

If you read my original post carefully, you should see that I am not trying to justify anything. I just asked a question. But I am not surprised at the responses that assume I am trying to justify my own beliefs. A few of the posts do a fine job at answering my question, and I appreciate that the posters took my question as I meant it
Annie

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

If you read my original post carefully, you should see that I am not trying to justify anything. I just asked a question. But I am not surprised at the responses that assume I am trying to justify my own beliefs. A few of the posts do a fine job at answering my question, and I appreciate that the posters took my question as I meant it
Annie

You asked a question, I answered to the fullest of my ability, keeping in mind that my words may be misunderstood or misused.

 

[Annie_B]

You asked a question, I answered to the fullest of my ability, keeping in mind that my words may be misunderstood or misused.

okAnnie

 

[Dokimas]

God Can protect His church from error! I wanted to see if anyone here agreed that it was possible for God to do whatever He wanted! I seems that many seem to feel that God **only does what ~they~ want Him to do **and they put Him in such a little box that it does not leave much room for him to work in

Annie

Does the highlighted part of your comment apply to you too?​

What makes you think your church is free from error? At one time weren’t black people thought of differenty than now? Wasn’t it God’s will that men multiply wives and then, according to your church, after the USofA gov’t made it illegal to have multiple wives, then God changed His mind? Any church that has God changing His mind is suspect, IMO. Is it God changing His mind or is it a mistake corrected by an imperfect church?

 

[spockrates]

You know, I don’t even pretend to know why God does what He does except for the reason that He doe what is best for us!
Annie
Live long and prosper my fellow trekker Oh my - a similarity between a catholic and a mormon??

Annie

Speaking of science fiction, I have a question for you: I’m a big fan of the latest *Battlestar Galactica *series, which was originally the creation of a Mormon, I’ve heard. I’m wondering if a proverb or prophecy the religious characters of the series kept repeating has any meaning in Mormon theology. The words they used were these:

This has happened before; it will happen again.

Please let me know if it sounds familiar, Annie and what significance it might have to the LDS Church.

 

[SnakeMauler]

If god can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, then why is it so impossible to believe that He could also use a 14 year old boy to bring forth ancient scripture and be a prophet of His church? This is NOT a question about doctrine. I would just be interested in knowing who thinks that God can do whatever He wants, no matter how little we may understand it at the time.

Annie

Because god would have forewarned of such a thing. As far as I know, everything that happened in the new testament about Jesus coming was prophesied.

My question to you is, if we know that things mentioned in the book of Mormon (iron weapons, animals that don’t live in America, etc.) have no archaeological evidence to back them up, why do you believe it? Also, why do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers or something? That’s not something I ever came across in the Bible.

The New Testament warns us that Jesus will come again. It does NOT however, warn us that there will be this guy who finds some golden plates in the woods that no one ever sees. The bible doesn’t say that Jesus came to America. NO NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE ANY RECORD OF JESUS COMING TO AMERICA. NO ONE IN AMERICA WAS A CHRISTIAN BEFORE EUROPEANS CAME OVER. While I do believe that anyone who observers the one true God DOES observe the one true God, I don’t understand why people choose to believe a bunch of things that have been proven wrong.

JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR, WE NEED NO ONE ELSE. Did Joseph smith die so that sins may be forgiven? No. Did Jesus ever say “Take on more then one wife”? No. Jesus is the son of God. I’d go with what he says over some American guy who has no way to substantiate his claims. In case you didn’t notice, Jesus worked all kinds of wonders; healing, he was resurrected, etc. What did Joseph Smith do besides cause all kinds of problems and get people killed?

-Snakemauler

 

[Annie_B]

Does the highlighted part of your comment apply to you too?​

What makes you think your church is free from error? At one time weren’t black people thought of differenty than now? Wasn’t it God’s will that men multiply wives and then, according to your church, after the USofA gov’t made it illegal to have multiple wives, then God changed His mind? Any church that has God changing His mind is suspect, IMO. Is it God changing His mind or is it a mistake corrected by an imperfect church?

Dokimas,
I never stated that I thought my church was free from error. I am not saying that it is in error, but I never stated it was not. Your comment “What makes you think your church is free from error?” question implies that I did.

Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Speaking of science fiction, I have a question for you: I’m a big fan of the latest *Battlestar Galactica *series, which was originally the creation of a Mormon, I’ve heard. I’m wondering if a proverb or prophecy the religious characters of the series kept repeating has any meaning in Mormon theology. The words they used were these:

This has happened before; it will happen again.

Please let me know if it sounds familiar, Annie and what significance it might have to the LDS Church.

Spockrates -
I have NO idea! I do know, though, that many sci fi shows/movies do have obvious (and some not so obvious) religious overtones/points. The first “Matrix” movie has quite a few religious name references… I am sad to say that I am not a Battlestar Galactica fan, but my husband and I are working our way through Babylon 5 at the moment (for about the 4th time)

Annie

 

[Dokimas]

Dokimas,
I never stated that I thought my church was free from error. I am not saying that it is in error, but I never stated it was not. Your comment “What makes you think your church is free from error?” question implies that I did.

Annie

Doesn’t the title of this OP refers to, at least by implication, the teaching of the Mormon church that God instructed J Smith to correct the wrong of the church (or something like that.) because it was corrupt? If so, do you believe your church is correct? If so, my statement stands.

 

[Annie_B]

Because god would have forewarned of such a thing. As far as I know, everything that happened in the new testament about Jesus coming was prophesied.

My question to you is, if we know that things mentioned in the book of Mormon (iron weapons, animals that don’t live in America, etc.) have no archaeological evidence to back them up, why do you believe it? Also, why do you believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers or something? That’s not something I ever came across in the Bible.

The New Testament warns us that Jesus will come again. It does NOT however, warn us that there will be this guy who finds some golden plates in the woods that no one ever sees. The bible doesn’t say that Jesus came to America. NO NATIVE AMERICANS HAVE ANY RECORD OF JESUS COMING TO AMERICA. NO ONE IN AMERICA WAS A CHRISTIAN BEFORE EUROPEANS CAME OVER. While I do believe that anyone who observers the one true God DOES observe the one true God, I don’t understand why people choose to believe a bunch of things that have been proven wrong.

JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR, WE NEED NO ONE ELSE. Did Joseph smith die so that sins may be forgiven? No. Did Jesus ever say “Take on more then one wife”? No. Jesus is the son of God. I’d go with what he says over some American guy who has no way to substantiate his claims. In case you didn’t notice, Jesus worked all kinds of wonders; healing, he was resurrected, etc. What did Joseph Smith do besides cause all kinds of problems and get people killed?

-Snakemauler

SnakeMauler -
as I said this was not a theological debate (I try to avoid those actually). It was merely a question as to what people thought God was capable of doing. The general consensus here seems to be that God can do whatever He wants:thumbsup:
Annie

 

[Della]

If god can turn bread and wine into His body and blood, then why is it so impossible to believe that He could also use a 14 year old boy to bring forth ancient scripture and be a prophet of His church?

It’s not that God could not do this, it’s that he would not do this. Why? Because he has already given mankind his last revelation to us–his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. No more prophets are needed. Any prophet who proclaims anything else is a false prophet.

This is NOT a question about doctrine. I would just be interested in knowing who thinks that God can do whatever He wants, no matter how little we may understand it at the time.

Annie

No. God cannot do whatever he wants just because he wants to. That would violate his nature.

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates -
I have NO idea! I do know, though, that many sci fi shows/movies do have obvious (and some not so obvious) religious overtones/points. The first “Matrix” movie has quite a few religious name references… I am sad to say that I am not a Battlestar Galactica fan, but my husband and I are working our way through Babylon 5 at the moment (for about the 4th time)

Annie

OK, thanks!

 

[Annie_B]

It’s not that God could not do this, it’s that he would not do this. Why? Because he has already given mankind his last revelation to us–his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. No more prophets are needed. Any prophet who proclaims anything else is a false prophet.

No. God cannot do whatever he wants just because he wants to. That would violate his nature.

Della - I did not state that God can do whatever he wants ~just because He wants to~.

Annie

 

[LilyM]

Yes, as a hypothetical it is possible.

Remember, though, that to mainstream Christians, Christ is a whole lot more than a prophet. Certainly much more than a mere human being as Joseph Smith was.

Christ is God’s (the uncreated, eternal God, who alone is God) ultimate message and revelation to mankind - His revelation of His own self to them in human form. He is the end to which all prophecy points.

So after God coming Himself to earth to give us His message from His own lips, what need of further (vastly inferior) human messengers like Joseph Smith? None. God’s revelation and message reached its zenith with Christ

So there are no new prophets in the sense in which the LDS claim there are. None are either possible or necessary. Instead there are keyholders and truth-preservers such as the Apostles and their successors. Who claim no new revelation from God, because God has already revealed all in revealing His own self and cannot reveal more than that. Merely people to whom God has granted the authority to preserve and clarify that which He revealed in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Della]

Della - I did not state that God can do whatever he wants ~just because He wants to~.

Annie

Ah, yes you did. If God can do anything he wants (as you stated) then he can do anything he wants for any reason at all. You can’t ascribe motives to him that limit him if you are going to state he can do anything he wants–even go against his own nature. It’s why your argument falls flat. It’s a common fallacy we see in the silly philosophical question: Can God lift a rock too heavy for him? and that sort of thing. God cannot do whatever he wants if it would violate his nature because he won’t do that.

 

[Annie_B]

Ah, yes you did. If God can do anything he wants (as you stated) then he can do anything he wants for any reason at all. You can’t ascribe motives to him that limit him if you are going to state he can do anything he wants–even go against his own nature. It’s why your argument falls flat. It’s a common fallacy we see in the silly philosophical question: Can God lift a rock too heavy for him? and that sort of thing. God cannot do whatever he wants if it would violate his nature because he won’t do that.

Della -
I resent that you are telling me what I said when I DID NOT SAY IT!!! I would certainly not try to tell you what you said when you did not say it. Do NOT try to twist my words!
Annie

 

[Annie_B]

Della -
an a final thought: I don’t know about you, but I mean what I say when I say it. When I post it - that is what I mean - nothing hidden. Do you mean what you say? Or do all your posts need to be revisited to discover their “true” meaning? It is sad that it has come to this. I do not mind talking about the differences in our faiths and trying to understand those differences - that is why I come here. But I will be darned if ANYBODY is going to accuse me of not meaning what I say.

Congratulations. This is my FINAL post on CA. I will not be returning. Too bad that one bad apple really can spoil the whole bunch…

Annie

 

[Della]

It’s not that I think you didn’t mean what you said, it’s that I don’t think you are aware of all the implications of what you said. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’m take philosophical ideas to their ultimate end instead of assuming they only mean what someone thinks they do. I meant nothing against you at all. Truly. I’m trying to get you to see that, as you stated it, you were stating a fallacy. I ascribe no “guilt” to you for that, I just think you were not seeing it.

 

[ricko]

Della -
an a final thought: I don’t know about you, but I mean what I say when I say it. When I post it - that is what I mean - nothing hidden. Do you mean what you say? Or do all your posts need to be revisited to discover their “true” meaning? It is sad that it has come to this. I do not mind talking about the differences in our faiths and trying to understand those differences - that is why I come here. But I will be darned if ANYBODY is going to accuse me of not meaning what I say.

Congratulations. This is my FINAL post on CA. I will not be returning. Too bad that one bad apple really can spoil the whole bunch…

Annie

You could be mistaken but if that’s what you believe no one can change your mind.

God bless you (the One Real True God).

In answer to your question. No, He would NOT do such a thing because it would be contary to what He has already done, (Establish a Church to last until the end of the world). Falls under the same belief that God would not lie.