If God Commanded You To Kill Someone, Would You Do It?

[anmend43]

Could you guys provide the scripture passages please?
I’m relatively new to studying OT myself but in most of the cases where God ordered the Hebrew to kill by the hundreds/thousands it was to preserve God’s chosen people. It was only the actions of a few that allowed God to bless us with redemption through Jesus. The Hebrew people had to survive because Jesus was a descendant of them; in a violent world, God chose the Hebrew, the lives of others were forfeit by their sins. Yes, God chose people to carry out his will.
Fast forward to what Jesus means. Instead of simply the chosen people, the Hebrew, Jesus reveals to us that God will reclaim the world opens his heart to all people. That there is no longer a few chosen people anymore, his wrath has been abated by the Son’s sacrifice, and all people are now chosen.
I don’t think God would order the death by one of us again to one of us. It goes against Jesus’ whole ministry of forgiveness and striving to change people through non-killing methods.
The OT is difficult to understand, the moral implications are hard to wrap one’s head around, I hope I’m going on the right path, what do you guys think?

 

[Call_Me_V]

There’s also the idea of the interpretation. Once you decide it means something, you exclude all other possibilities. We don’t know how God would reveal such a thing. We don’t know if He would just say “Kill tomorrow at high noon”. Given how He revealed His commands to both St. Francis and St. Dominic, I don’t think it would be simple.

Or he might just give the order directly, as he did countless times.

-God didn’t order the genocide but the Israelites, in writing about the events after they happened, attributed it to the command of God

I think that that is what most likely happened (I don’t believe in God, after all).

-Any innocent children who died are now in heaven, and their early deaths prevented them from learning the sinful ways of their parents and ending up in hell

Then I guess we should be glad for all of those deaths by way of abortion; isn’t in fortunate that they never had to learn the sinful ways of their parents!

From the stuff I’ve read on them, Bin Laden’s organization use the same logic to justify their killing of innocents. If the person dies and goes to hell, well clearly they were bad and deserved to die. If they die and go to heaven, then what do they have to complain about

Could you guys provide the scripture passages please?

Yup. I provided Numbers 31:17-18 earlier, where God order the Israelites to kill the male children, and all the females that have had intercourse, but to leave the virgin girls alive take them for themselves as one example. There are countless other if you need more.

I’m relatively new to studying OT myself but in most of the cases where God ordered the Hebrew to kill by the hundreds/thousands it was to preserve God’s chosen people. It was only the actions of a few that allowed God to bless us with redemption through Jesus.

So when God told the Israelites to kill even the little children… that was done to protect Israel? Those must have been some tough little kids to present such a threat to God’s people

V

 

[LilyM]

So when God told the Israelites to kill even the little children… that was done to protect Israel? Those must have been some tough little kids to present such a threat to God’s people

V

Even the cutest little baby tiger cub grows up into a ferocious predator. If you know it’s going to be a man-killer and want to stop it, surely a legitmate way is to kill it as a cub, before it gets the opportunity.

 

[Zatzat]

Even the cutest little baby tiger cub grows up into a ferocious predator. If you know it’s going to be a man-killer and want to stop it, surely a legitmate way is to kill it as a cub, before it gets the opportunity.

Let’s be honest here…at least use the actual words your intending to use, as this thread isn’t about killing wild animals, but human beings.

Are you sure you didn’t mean;

‘Even the cutest little baby grows up into a ferocious predator. If you know the baby is going to be a man-killer and want to stop it, surely a legitmate way is to kill the baby, before it gets the opportunity.’

Please correct me if I’m wrong, and I do hope I’m wrong.

On another note, I would question why God would have allowed that baby to be born, knowing that he’d have to order one of his minions to kill the baby…but that’s for another thread.

 

[LilyM]

Let’s be honest here…at least use the actual words your intending to use, as this thread isn’t about killing wild animals, but human beings.

Are you sure you didn’t mean;

‘Even the cutest little baby grows up into a ferocious predator. If you know the baby is going to be a man-killer and want to stop it, surely a legitmate way is to kill the baby, before it gets the opportunity.’

Please correct me if I’m wrong, and I do hope I’m wrong.

On another note, I would question why God would have allowed that baby to be born, knowing that he’d have to order one of his minions to kill the baby…but that’s for another thread.

No you’re not particularly wrong - the twist, of course, being that humans do NOT know what the baby is going to grow up to do or be, and must not take it upon themselves to decide that ANY human child should be killed. God, however, certainly does and can.

God HAVE to order one of his minions to kill a baby? No, God doesn’t HAVE to order a human being to do a darn thing. Out of His goodness He takes pity on our weakness and stupidity and makes His will known, by means of commandments or ‘orders’, in such a manner that we accept those commandments or ‘orders’ as coming from Him.

All babies have to die somehow, some way, some time - why does God allow any of us to be born knowing that?

One part of the answer is that life itself is precious, worthwhile and glorious. However short, however painful, it is nonetheless a miracle and a blessing.

It is a gift that God, knowing how wonderful it is, wants to give to all of us, even Amalekite babies, even though He knows some (maybe all) of us either don’t deserve it or won’t make good use of it.

 

[Call_Me_V]

No you’re not particularly wrong - the twist, of course, being that humans do NOT know what the baby is going to grow up to do or be, and must not take it upon themselves to decide that ANY human child should be killed. God, however, certainly does and can.

God HAVE to order one of his minions to kill a baby? No, God doesn’t HAVE to order a human being to do a darn thing. Out of His goodness He takes pity on our weakness and stupidity and makes His will known, by means of commandments or ‘orders’, in such a manner that we accept those commandments or ‘orders’ as coming from Him.

All babies have to die somehow, some way, some time - why does God allow any of us to be born knowing that?

One part of the answer is that life itself is precious, worthwhile and glorious. However short, however painful, it is nonetheless a miracle and a blessing.

It is a gift that God, knowing how wonderful it is, wants to give to all of us, even Amalekite babies, even though He knows some (maybe all) of us either don’t deserve it or won’t make good use of it.

Again, I’m not questioning God’s authority to order the deaths of others. If he exists, he can obviously do what ever he wants. Simply that those who believe that God can do whatever he wants don’t always think through the implications of that statement. If they did, they would either A) be willing to kill for God without hesitation (since according to their logic, it becomes moral once God commands it, and they should have nothing to worry about), or B) reject Divine Command morality. I don’t see an option 3 anywhere, though I could just be missing it.

V

 

[doughnut]

well, i would more likely suspect that command might not be from God, and would seek verification. Many times I did things that I didn’t understand because I was ‘inspired’ by God to do so. And depending on the ‘seriousness’ of the issue, I may or may not seek counsel, to test if this is indeed from God, and not my own brain going mad.

Some things, I do, and then I realised, often from the outcome, that it was indeed from God. If I am doubtful, I will seek verification.

 

[Doc_Keele]

It does seem difficult to reconcile a God of love with the slaughter of entire peoples. God in the OT seems very harsh at times, and we all deserve a similarly harsh punishment for our sins. The apparent paradox can be resolved by understanding the differences between the New Covenant and the Old Covenants.

So no, if it appeared that God was ordering me to kill someone, I wouldn’t. That would go against the nature of God as I understand (New Covenant). God can’t do things which are evil. The fact that God does an evil act doesn’t make it good. This is where Muslims have a problem because they believe that whatever Muhammed did must be good, and he did some really wicked things.

 

[LilyM]

Again, I’m not questioning God’s authority to order the deaths of others. If he exists, he can obviously do what ever he wants. Simply that those who believe that God can do whatever he wants don’t always think through the implications of that statement. If they did, they would either A) be willing to kill for God without hesitation (since according to their logic, it becomes moral once God commands it, and they should have nothing to worry about), or B) reject Divine Command morality. I don’t see an option 3 anywhere, though I could just be missing it.

V

Option 3 is that it’s not about not being willing to kill for God, but rather about the near if not actual impossibility of being certain that one IS killing for God in a situation where the command comes to an individual alone.

You’re missing quite a bit actually.

What we as Catholics believe is that PUBLIC revelation from God, including commands from Him, actually ended with the death of the Apostle John. We believe that all current authority and authoritative pronouncements are clarifications of that revelation, that ‘deposit of faith’, rather than fresh revelation or fresh commands from God.

Equally importantly, we believe that nothing binding comes to us from God except through the Church. That’s why we submit PRIVATE revelation (visions, locutions, apparitions) to it for scrutiny before accepting them.

Now the Church has, no doubt about it, authorised killing in the name of God in the past, including the Crusades against Muslims and Albigensians and the various Inquisitions. When THAT happened, people obeyed, people flocked to the Holy Land, Spain and wherever else such crusades had been declared, and fought in numbers. Or they fought the good fight against the evil of heresy at home.

But even in those cases it wasn’t ever presented as a COMMAND. It was presented in terms of ‘it’s a good thing to do, and pleasing to God’, not ‘you MUST go and smite those Saracens/Albigensians/Moors/Protestants’.

So as you can see, the idea of God positively commanding (in the only way He DOES command us these days, via the Church) killing is just something foreign to Catholics.

 

[Hooding_Trees]

No you’re not particularly wrong - the twist, of course, being that humans do NOT know what the baby is going to grow up to do or be, and must not take it upon themselves to decide that ANY human child should be killed. God, however, certainly does and can.

So the ONLY way god could deal with this is to kill the baby. Given we KNOW that much of the troubles adults have is caused by their upbringing i could think of many other ways to deal with this, are you telling me your god cant?

God truly did order the genocide and since he is the author of life and death it is his perogative to do so

This really makes my blood boil. NO HE DOES NOT! My parents are the authors of my life, they do NOT have the right to kill me! What you are talking about is nothing more than god the mafia boss, “i have the power, therefore i can do!”. Just because one has the power to do something does not MAKE IT RIGHT to do it.

You need to watch this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=cAzJxkwUNA4

 

[LilyM]

So the ONLY way god could deal with this is to kill the baby. Given we KNOW that much of the troubles adults have is caused by their upbringing i could think of many other ways to deal with this, are you telling me your god cant?

What tha? Stop putting false words into my mouth. Of course I never said the ONLY way God could deal with it was to kill the baby. God has at least as many options as we do in such a case.

I said it’s A way to deal with it, and absolutely in some cases it might be equally as good or better than any other that He could choose. Not being omniscient, I’m not going to pretend that I know more than God about such matters.

This really makes my blood boil. NO HE DOES NOT! My parents are the authors of my life, they do NOT have the right to kill me! What you are talking about is nothing more than god the mafia boss, “i have the power, therefore i can do!”. Just because one has the power to do something does not MAKE IT RIGHT to do it.

You need to watch this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=cAzJxkwUNA4

Feel free to argue the toss with Him when you meet Him, then. I’m sure the Creator of the Universe will be more than willing to bow to your superior morality

Your parents didn’t create your soul, merely your body. The first human body was a lump of clay - ie lifeless - before God breathed a soul into Adam, and every human body is a lump of flesh - lifeless - until God breathes a soul into it.

So although your parents assisted in the process, their contribution to your creation is infinitely inferior to that of God. They have infinitely fewer rights over you as a result.

 

[Luke_K]

This really makes my blood boil. NO HE DOES NOT! My parents are the authors of my life, they do NOT have the right to kill me! What you are talking about is nothing more than god the mafia boss, “i have the power, therefore i can do!”. Just because one has the power to do something does not MAKE IT RIGHT to do it.

You need to watch this video.

youtube.com/watch?v=cAzJxkwUNA4

Your parents aren’t God, and the analogy simply isn’t relevant. Talking about two people who had sex and let nature take its course is entirely different than an eternal creator who created us out of nothing and then we rebelled against him.

Also, on a philosophical level, since God is defined as good it really doesn’t make sense to argue whether his commands are moral or not. The issue is whether we are capable of accurately recognizing what his commands are.

 

[curlycool89]

Or he might just give the order directly, as he did countless times.

That’s absolutely possible too. I was speaking more from a statistical/probability angle, saying that what’s happened more recently (say in the case of St. Dominic) is more likely to happen than a direct command (but either could definitely happen).

 

[Langdell]

I haven’t read the whole thread, but …

I voted for the last option (see a doctor), but I would’ve picked the next-to-last option also if we could pick two (a demonic trick).

I don’t believe that the violence in the OT is “okay because God told them to do it.” I think it’s appropriate to read the OT with the recognition that its authors had human limitations in how they viewed God and history, among other things.

.

 

[Hooding_Trees]

Feel free to argue the toss with Him when you meet Him, then. I’m sure the Creator of the Universe will be more than willing to bow to your superior morality

Your parents didn’t create your soul, merely your body. The first human body was a lump of clay - ie lifeless - before God breathed a soul into Adam, and every human body is a lump of flesh - lifeless - until God breathes a soul into it.

So although your parents assisted in the process, their contribution to your creation is infinitely inferior to that of God. They have infinitely fewer rights over you as a result.

You can bet i would. For even if it was proved that your god was real i could never worship such an immoral creature. Love and friendship are earned, not forced upon one. Your god is utterly immoral and your claim that this is ok because he has the power makes him no better than a mafia boss, or Hitler. Was it moral for Hitler to kill the jews just because he has the power to do so? Just like it could never be moral for your god to kill millions of babies just because he had the power to do so.

The fact that people can not only defend such stories, but claim that are moral, shows a deeply disturbed psyche. What is even more disturbing is you hold such warped beliefs with out a single shred of evidence to validate them. I have to admit though if your version of the god of the bible did exist, all of humanity would be in BIG trouble for it is clearly insane. I thank my stars not only because you are at the extreme end of the catholic faith, but there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest any god exists let alone yours.

 

[curlycool89]

You can bet i would. For even if it was proved that your god was real i could never worship such an immoral creature. Love and friendship are earned, not forced upon one. Your god is utterly immoral and your claim that this is ok because he has the power makes him no better than a mafia boss, or Hitler. Was it moral for Hitler to kill the jews just because he has the power to do so? Just like it could never be moral for your god to kill millions of babies just because he had the power to do so.

Oh, I haven’t checked lately. Did Hitler create the Heavens and the Earth from nothing? Did der Führer create man in his own image and breath his own breath into us and give us life? No, he decided he wanted to play God when he’s was just a man.

Funny enough, there is no way to describe the beginning of the Universe without God. If you go back far enough, there had to be a point at which matter was created, which science says can’t be done. There has to be a beginning. Science can’t explain that.

Thirdly, Goodwin’s law. Please hand in you’re debate card on the way out.

 

[Call_Me_V]

Option 3 is that it’s not about not being willing to kill for God, but rather about the near if not actual impossibility of being certain that one IS killing for God in a situation where the command comes to an individual alone.

You’re missing quite a bit actually.

What we as Catholics believe is that PUBLIC revelation from God, including commands from Him, actually ended with the death of the Apostle John. We believe that all current authority and authoritative pronouncements are clarifications of that revelation, that ‘deposit of faith’, rather than fresh revelation or fresh commands from God.

Equally importantly, we believe that nothing binding comes to us from God except through the Church. That’s why we submit PRIVATE revelation (visions, locutions, apparitions) to it for scrutiny before accepting them.

I don’t see how this helps. It seems like you’re just adding another link in the chain of command. Saying that it has to come from God through the Church, in the end results in the same thing, you receive a command from God. Once you have received this command from God, I think that the options are still the same.

Now the Church has, no doubt about it, authorised killing in the name of God in the past, including the Crusades against Muslims and Albigensians and the various Inquisitions. When THAT happened, people obeyed, people flocked to the Holy Land, Spain and wherever else such crusades had been declared, and fought in numbers. Or they fought the good fight against the evil of heresy at home.

I’m just curious, I thought that the infallibility of the Church didn’t extend to the Crusades or the Inquisition. I thought that most Catholics think that it was wrong to kill people who disagreed with the Church. So so you believe that the Crusades and Inquisition were approved by God?

But even in those cases it wasn’t ever presented as a COMMAND. It was presented in terms of ‘it’s a good thing to do, and pleasing to God’, not ‘you MUST go and smite those Saracens/Albigensians/Moors/Protestants’.

Yes, but I’m talking about a case in which it IS an absolute command, which he has certainly done, according to scripture.

I think it’s appropriate to read the OT with the recognition that its authors had human limitations in how they viewed God and history, among other things.

Are you implying that when the Old Testament says that God, gave the command, that that is not true? That God did not really act as the Old Testament portrays him? I would agree, but I’m just curious how it would affect the divine inspiration of the Old Testament if the Old Testament presented false information.

V

 

[Luke_K]

You can bet i would. For even if it was proved that your god was real i could never worship such an immoral creature. Love and friendship are earned, not forced upon one. Your god is utterly immoral and your claim that this is ok because he has the power makes him no better than a mafia boss, or Hitler. Was it moral for Hitler to kill the jews just because he has the power to do so? Just like it could never be moral for your god to kill millions of babies just because he had the power to do so.

The fact that people can not only defend such stories, but claim that are moral, shows a deeply disturbed psyche. What is even more disturbing is you hold such warped beliefs with out a single shred of evidence to validate them. I have to admit though if your version of the god of the bible did exist, all of humanity would be in BIG trouble for it is clearly insane. I thank my stars not only because you are at the extreme end of the catholic faith, but there is not a single shred of evidence to suggest any god exists let alone yours.

It is not a matter of power. It is a matter of who is who.

 

[Joe_5859]

V,

I confess I didn’t read through the entire thread, but I just wanted to point out something important in case it was missed.

I think you have caught onto something important. To think of God commanding us to kill someone “in this day and age” seems utterly ridiculous. We cannot imagine that God would ever do that. And yet, we see in the Old Testament instances where God did command such things. This creates an exegetical dilemma that we must answer.

The key point to reconciling this apparent contradiction is an understanding of incremental revelation (a good understanding of the Law as found in Scripture is also helpful). Basically, God had to teach us in stages (incrementally) in order for us to be able to keep up with Him.

We see other examples of this in Scripture. For example, Moses allowed for divorce, but then Jesus lets us know that this was a concession made because of the hardness of their hearts. In the beginning, it was not so.

I recommend reading Jimmy Akin’s wonderful article, Hard Sayings of the Old Testament. He addresses this same question, but in a way that most of us here could not articulate quite so well.

 

[Call_Me_V]

The key point to reconciling this apparent contradiction is an understanding of incremental revelation (a good understanding of the Law as found in Scripture is also helpful). Basically, God had to teach us in stages (incrementally) in order for us to be able to keep up with Him.

I have to say, I don’t buy this. I don’t think that modern Christian morality is so hard to learn that God had to build up to it. Most Christians are taught Christian morals and have learned them well even as small children, without “building up to it”. I have to be honest, from what I know of progressive revelation, it seems to me like a cheap way to explain why God changed his mind on morality. I could be wrong though.

I recommend reading Jimmy Akin’s wonderful article, Hard Sayings of the Old Testament. He addresses this same question, but in a way that most of us here could not articulate quite so well.

Well, first of all, his excuse for why God could kill innocents (that they get to go to heaven, so it’s not big deal) I wold just like to restate is the the exact same logic used by Osama Bin Laden, as I said earlier:

From the stuff I’ve read on them, Bin Laden’s organization use the same logic to justify their killing of innocents. If the person dies and goes to hell, well clearly they were bad and deserved to die. If they die and go to heaven, then what do they have to complain about

Anyways, I’m not arguing about whether God’s actions were moral (if divine command morality is true, than his actions obviously were moral). I’m just trying to drive home to those who believe in divine command morality the true implications of that belief (specifically, if God’s commands are the only determiner of morality, then they should be willing to carry out his commands without hesitation, no matter what that command was, murder, theft, wiping out a tribe and taking their virgins for yourselves, whatever.

V