If God could create Mary without original sin, why couldn't he create others the same way?

[mangy_dog]

Since God created someone without original sin (and presumably without the tendency to sin as well) why doesn’t he just create everyone else the same way? Wouldn’t that solve the problem of sin in a much easier and more effective way than having Jesus come to be sacrificed?

Because the person you are talking about (The Theotokos) had a singular mission- to be the Mother of God.

As far as resolving the “problem of sin” that you mention as a solution…well, Lucifer already tried that in the desert with Jesus and failed- you won’t fair any better.

 

[davidv]

Think about it like this: your wife (I’m guessing you’re male from your name) is going to have a baby. The doctor tells her that if she smokes and drinks while pregnant the baby will not develop properly, and will likely come out with physical and mental issues. If she wants a healthy baby all she has to do is forego smoking and drinking for the duration of the pregnancy. With this knowledge, if she did smoke and drink we’d rightly call her a terrible mother.

Extending the analogy to God, he is perfectly capable of producing sin-free humans, who are spotless of mind, body, and soul, all while retaining their free will. Instead he chooses to create us with original sin and fallen natures.

How would God produce sin-free humans? In order to be human, one must have the ability to choose to love, or not. This means that some will choose not to love, as was the case for Adam and Eve.

This doesn’t seem compatible with God’s supposed loving nature, and I’m trying to understand the justification.

Why is this not compatible? Justification is not necessary, understanding is. What is love? Why does it require the ability to sin?

 

[FurtherSuntime]

Why complain about it?

 

[mangy_dog]

Thanks for your responses so far, but I’m seeing a common pattern here. Most people seem to be telling me how and why God created Mary without sin. My question, however, is if he could create one person that way, why couldn’t he create everyone that way? If somehow she was saved at conception “by the grace of God” then why can’t everyone have the same treatment?

Because there is only one Theotokos.

You by the way, could’ve gone the way of the saints but the influence of the world, the influence of the devil and your own concupiscience (this last one especially) are the factors that led to your atheism.

It was your choice just as it was everyone else’s choice to not be like Mary and all the other saints. Choice. Mary had a choice and chose right and correct and good- always.

Mary was no automaton. Mary gave her fiat (no, not the car) her yes. And always did the will of God.

Why doesn’t everyone else in the world follow that example? Why are demons the way they are and why do we sin.

These are the questions you should be asking instead of playing atheist games.

 

[tonyrey]

Thanks for your responses so far, but I’m seeing a common pattern here. Most people seem to be telling me how and why God created Mary without sin. My question, however, is if he could create one person that way, why couldn’t he create everyone that way? If somehow she was saved at conception “by the grace of God” then why can’t everyone have the same treatment?

If God created everyone that way the materialist would complain that God’ power is limited and he is incapable of creating a more exciting universe!

Since the materialist doesn’t believe in sin anyway the question is rather pointless…

 

[Jehannette]

Since God created someone without original sin (and presumably without the tendency to sin as well) why doesn’t he just create everyone else the same way? Wouldn’t that solve the problem of sin in a much easier and more effective way than having Jesus come to be sacrificed?

“Children while in the mother’s womb have not yet come forth into the world to live among other men. Consequently they cannot be subject to the action of man, so as to receive the sacrament, at the hands of man, unto salvation. They can, however, be subject to the action of God, in Whose sight they live, so as, by a kind of privilege, to receive the grace of sanctification; as was the case with those who were sanctified in the womb.” (Summa Theologica IIIa, q.68, a.11, ad 1)

 

[Crux_Sacra]

Thanks for your responses so far, but I’m seeing a common pattern here. Most people seem to be telling me how and why God created Mary without sin. My question, however, is if he could create one person that way, why couldn’t he create everyone that way? If somehow she was saved at conception “by the grace of God” then why can’t everyone have the same treatment?

I apologize. I didn’t read the religion profile on your original post. I’m acustomed to using Bible verses as conversational shorthand with all Christians, and Catechism references (the “CCC” stuff in my first post) with Catholics. Please bear with me.

“The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceeded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.” (CCC 488)

Just as Adam and Eve both had a part in the fall of man from grace, Jesus and Mary both had roles in its redemption. Jesus is the Redemptor, and Mary the Co-Redemptrix.

The Immaculate Conception was part of God’s preparation of Mary for her role. Mary’s coming was prophesied in the very beginning of time, and every prophecy about her has to do with Jesus. We are talking about someone whose role in salvation history actually calls for her to be set apart in a special way.

But it is not necessary to set us all apart through immaculate conception. Jesus left us his holy Church and seven Sacraments for us to receive salvation. Baptism forgives all of our sins up to that point and we are made anew. If we sin after that, we have Confession to bring us back to a state of grace.

 

[cc42]

Poseidon:

The reason is because we are not all the Mother of God.

Though, for a mysterious reason God saw it as necessary to allow us to be born sinful, perhaps so we could live out the inclinations we might desire.

 

[Poseidon]

In the case of the woman, the woman actively engages in the behavior that renders the child ‘wounded’. In the case of God, He does nothing to actively render the to-be-conceived soul ‘wounded’. There is no behavior God is engaging in that he must quit for the to-be-conceived soul to be free of harm. Original sin is inherited from the human parents, not inflicted or embedded by God.

In the case of Mary, God mercifully intervened and protected Mary’s soul from inheriting the effects of original sin.

**417 **Adam and Eve transmitted to their descendants human nature wounded by their own first sin and hence deprived of original holiness and justice; this deprivation is called “original sin”.

**419 **“We therefore hold, with the Council of Trent, that original sin is transmitted with human nature, “by propagation, not by imitation” and that it is. . . ‘proper to each’” (Paul VI, CPG § 16).

In response to your first point, it doesn’t matter if God is actively causing us to have original sin or passively allowing it - the point is that he is able to stop it, and doesn’t. So whether he is putting original sin into us, or simply not taking it, it’s the same result.

Your second point is the crux of my question. God intervened to remove original sin from Mary. That means that he could do it for everyone - remove the tendency to sin without disturbing free will. So why doesn’t he do it?

 

[Poseidon]

If God created everyone that way the materialist would complain that God’ power is limited and he is incapable of creating a more exciting universe!

Somehow I doubt that.

 

[Poseidon]

God didn’t create Mary without the freedom to sin. She was essentially in the same position as Adam & Eve. She was no more capable of remaining sin-free and spotless as she was capable of sinning. She chose to remain sin free. And having been born without the effects of OS, without concupiscence, didn’t necessarily even make her life any easier here on this fallen planet. With grace provided by Christs’ sacrifice, we all have the same advantage-we can all overcome sin in the end.

She had freedom to sin, but not the natural inclination to do so, like all us normal people do. He created her in the same state that he created Adam and Eve, and gave her the free will to choose her own fate, while the rest of us poor fools have a natural disadvantage in our tendency to sin (really, it’s an inability to not sin).

 

[Poseidon]

Because the person you are talking about (The Theotokos) had a singular mission- to be the Mother of God.

As far as resolving the “problem of sin” that you mention as a solution…well, Lucifer already tried that in the desert with Jesus and failed- you won’t fair any better.

I’m not sure what you mean by Lucifer in the desert. Do you mean when he tempted Jesus? How is my question like Satan tempting Jesus?

 

[Poseidon]

I apologize. I didn’t read the religion profile on your original post. I’m acustomed to using Bible verses as conversational shorthand with all Christians, and Catechism references (the “CCC” stuff in my first post) with Catholics. Please bear with me.

“The Father of mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceeded by assent on the part of the predestined mother, so that just as a woman had a share in the coming of death, so also should a woman contribute to the coming of life.” (CCC 488)

Just as Adam and Eve both had a part in the fall of man from grace, Jesus and Mary both had roles in its redemption. Jesus is the Redemptor, and Mary the Co-Redemptrix.

The Immaculate Conception was part of God’s preparation of Mary for her role. Mary’s coming was prophesied in the very beginning of time, and every prophecy about her has to do with Jesus. We are talking about someone whose role in salvation history actually calls for her to be set apart in a special way.

But it is not necessary to set us all apart through immaculate conception. Jesus left us his holy Church and seven Sacraments for us to receive salvation. Baptism forgives all of our sins up to that point and we are made anew. If we sin after that, we have Confession to bring us back to a state of grace.

So in a nutshell, Mary isn’t a regular person?

 

[DeepBlueSea]

Since God created someone without original sin (and presumably without the tendency to sin as well) why doesn’t he just create everyone else the same way?

Because she was ordained to carry baby Christ.

Wouldn’t that solve the problem of sin in a much easier and more effective way than having Jesus come to be sacrificed?

Because God ordains us to be part of the solution. He ordains our efforts to overcome sins and to defeat sins in the way Christ taught us without which we are hopeless. Of course, always under the grace and guidance by the Holy Spirit.

“And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” (Genesis 4:7)

That’s my understanding. Correct me if I’m not right.

I’m interested to know whether Mother Mary was ever subjected to temptation and how she resisted temptation without any struggle.

 

[Journey322]

CCC491: Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, “full of grace” through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.

492: The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: she is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by the merits of her Son.” The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person “in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places” and chose her “in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love.”

493: The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God “the All-Holy” (Panagia) and celebrate her as “free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.” By the Grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

---

Mary, too is redeemed by Christ. There is no redemption without Christ. The price for mankind sinning is death. Genesis 3:3, 19; Romans 6:23. Jesus paid the price for us, once for all. 1 Peter 3:18

The example usually given is about falling into a mud puddle. We have fallen in and Jesus pulls us out. Mary was prevented by Jesus from ever falling in.

Mary was told what God had in store for her in the Gospel of Luke, and she consented to it, undoing the “no” of Eve. Mary could have said no, but said yes. She, too had free will, but was unencumbered by the attachment to sin and the clouded judgment that comes with it. God wants us to love him. Love, by its nature, means making a decision. If the decision is removed from the equation, then it cannot be love.

This is how it was explained to me at the parish I attend as well. Mary wasn’t created without sin. She was a genuine daughter of Eve, and thus bore the inherited sin nature just like the rest of us. However, the Holy Spirit wiped her clean for the conception.

 

[MarcoPG]

Going further, another question would be:
Since Mary was preserved from sin because of her call to bear the Son, this grace is also given because God knows her entire life before anyone else, so He knew she would be worthy.

So, why God let people be born in sin, when He knows us better than we do and could save us from the beginning, since He knows who will be judged worthy?

I would say, that part of the story, our life, simply has to be lived. What God sees before us has to exist. if he prevented us from being born in sin, it would make no sense that we are born in such a world. And we are.
Am I right? Could anyone add something?

 

[tonyrey]

*If God created everyone that way the materialist would complain that God’ power is limited and he is incapable of creating a more exciting universe!

• Somehow I doubt that.

You need to explain why - especially in view of the constant complaints about the disadvantages of life on this planet.

 

[tonyrey]

So in a nutshell, Mary isn’t a regular person?

Why do you expect the mother of Jesus to be a “regular” person?

 

[MarcoPG]

Why do you expect the mother of Jesus to be a “regular” person?

I guess he thinks anyone who isn’t God is regular. Or, no one but God is special.

Well, Adam was created without sin, Eve also, Mary was saved and conceived without sin, Jesus was God and (oops!). They weren’t exacly regular in the way we think we are regular. But they were men!

 

[tonyrey]

The OP fails to take into account the precise meaning of “original sin”:
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405

Although it is proper to each individual,295 **original sin does not have the character of a personal fault **in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. **

The unique vocation of Mary to be the mother of the Saviour surely entitles her to have a unique spiritual status.

**

407

The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that **man has a wounded nature inclined to evil **gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals. **

It is logical that the woman who consented to be the mother of the Saviour should be purified** in advance **by the suffering she shared with her Son when He was scourged and crucified.

408 The consequences of original sin and of all men’s personal sins put the world as a whole in the sinful condition aptly described in St. John’s expression, “the sin of the world”.300 This expression can also refer to the negative influence exerted on people by communal situations and social structures that are the fruit of men’s sins.301

It is hardly surprising that the woman who was bearing Christ in her womb wasn’t subject to that influence.

**

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man’s life a battle:

The whole of man’s history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God’s grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303**Mary was tempted - especially when she became aware of the horrifying ordeal that lay ahead but she was united to Jesus spiritually as well as maternally. In the words of John Keats her unselfish love gave her “negative capability”. She identified herself with Him totally, fulfilling His prayer for all of us:

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

John 17:20-26