If God did not create evil, then who did?

[Robert_Sock]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

This question may have been discussed before, but it’s a topic where I would like people’s opinion. Keep in mind that we believe in one God, not two, one good and the other evil. The paradox for me is in people’s belief that God is all good, and cannot do anything evil. I know that many will try and say that Lucifer had a free will and chose evil, but I would contend that such a belief has to be false because evil would have had to be present before Lucifer chose it.

 

[simpleas]

 

[Stephen_says]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

This question may have been discussed before, but it’s a topic where I would like people’s opinion. Keep in mind that we believe in one God, not two, one good and the other evil. The paradox for me is in people’s belief that God is all good, and cannot do anything evil. I know that many will try and say that Lucifer had a free will and chose evil, but I would contend that such a belief has to be false because evil would have had to be present before Lucifer chose it.

I contend that “Evil” isn’t a thing that was created. “Good” isn’t a thing either. It is a trait, or a description of a relationship between two things. Therefore, something is said to be good when it works according to God’s laws, and evil when it works against God’s laws. God only created an environment where things could be evil by their own choice.

Thoughts?

 

[STT]

I contend that “Evil” isn’t a thing that was created. “Good” isn’t a thing either. It is a trait, or a description of a relationship between two things. Therefore, something is said to be good when it works according to God’s laws, and evil when it works against God’s laws. God only created an environment where things could be evil by their own choice.

Thoughts?

But how God commit an act against, evil, His own laws? Isn’t that a sin?

 

[Robert_Sock]

I contend that “Evil” isn’t a thing that was created. “Good” isn’t a thing either. It is a trait, or a description of a relationship between two things. Therefore, something is said to be good when it works according to God’s laws, and evil when it works against God’s laws. God only created an environment where things could be evil by their own choice.

Thoughts?

That’s a good way of looking at it, but we still have Isaiah 45:7 to contend with. I personally view evil as a state of affairs which is programmed into us and our world.

How would you explain the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

This question may have been discussed before, but it’s a topic where I would like people’s opinion. Keep in mind that we believe in one God, not two, one good and the other evil. The paradox for me is in people’s belief that God is all good, and cannot do anything evil. I know that many will try and say that Lucifer had a free will and chose evil, but I would contend that such a belief has to be false because evil would have had to be present before Lucifer chose it.

well since you use the Douay Rheims let’s see what it says regarding 'create evil". . .
create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
[7] Create evil: The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

So God did not create sin (or evil). Afflictions and punishments are ‘results’. They are consequences of actions.

Evil is not a thing in itself. It is a ‘spoiled good’. There is no ‘evil’ that is not a twisting of some good. And the ability to ‘twist’ is part of that ‘free will’ that we have.

If there were no way for us to reject a good, then we’d be robots. We reject good by omission and commission: there are things which are good that we could do, but that we don’t (we’re tired, we think somebody else will do it). We don’t do anything actively bad instead, but we just don’t do all the good that we could.

There are also things that we do which are 'spoiled good." Sex is a great good, but we can choose not to receive it properly (fornicate, commit adultery, masturbate, etc). Those things are evil, but they would not exist without the original good.

Gluttony is wrong, but food itself is good.

Fire warms the freezing, but somebody who wants to burn down a house is using a good thing for an evil purpose.

God created all for good, including us. . .but we are free to reject or spoil that good due to our fallen nature. . .or embrace the good by trying to conform our nature more to God’s own. ’

So Lucifer, in your example, had the good --the ability to say to God, “I don’t understand this, but your will be done”. Instead he chose to reject the good and had the ability to say to God, “Because I don’t understand this, I reject your will. MY will be done instead.” It wasn’t that some big old hunk of ‘evil’ either came to pass with Lucifer or was just waiting for him to choose it. It was Lucifer’s choice, just as at any given moment it is the choice of all of us.

God, or not.

 

[Wesrock]

God is light. The light does not create the darkness, it creates only light, but permits shadows to fall.

That is an analogy. What is not an analogy is to say God is Being, and that’s he creates and sustains all creation’s being, while permitting defects. The absence is not created, it’s just not filled in. And where being is convertible with goodness. Evil is a deprivation.

Evil, in this sense, is largely a consequence of permitting change. If there was no give and take between being and not being, between act and potential, there could be no change.

 

[ffg]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

This question may have been discussed before, but it’s a topic where I would like people’s opinion. Keep in mind that we believe in one God, not two, one good and the other evil. The paradox for me is in people’s belief that God is all good, and cannot do anything evil. I know that many will try and say that Lucifer had a free will and chose evil, but I would contend that such a belief has to be false because evil would have had to be present before Lucifer chose it.

It might be good if you expand on your last.

In light of Lucifer and God, Why does God knowing in the possibility and allowing choice (aka a result of love) before Lucifer was even created (well before Lucifer chose), make God have an attribute of evil?

A human example, you and I both know evils (say murder), that knowledge doesn’t make us evil.

Another example - ever have someone do something for you, ever watch how they are working / doing, and notice that it wasn’t going to come out right?

Does your knowledge of the wrong outcome mean you made the mistake?

Perhaps to get past the sticking point, if you don’t like the word ‘created’, just say that Lucifer was the first to action an Evil act in rejecting God.

But arguing the creation of evil is it’s entrance with a deliberate act, seems possible.

 

[po18guy]

Is this a trick question? You cannot create evil.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Is this a trick question? You cannot create evil.

So Isaiah 45:7 is not correct? I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

You believe.

The more important question though is does GOD believe it?

 

[ProdglArchitect]

So Isaiah 45:7 is not correct? I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

Isaiah 45:7 is a classic example of a OT tendency to ascribe all things to God, even those things that are not a direct result of God, but rather a result of the rejection of God.

Evil is, ultimately, the rejection of God. As God is all good, it would be impossible or Him to create evil, which is completely opposition to Himself.

Evil occurs when someone make a choice that goes against God’s will. It is not “created” or “willed” by God so much as it is “allowed” by God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So Isaiah 45:7 is not correct? I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

Did you miss this? (It is in the Douay Rheims after all)
create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.
[7] Create evil: The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin.

Afflictions and punishments are effects, not causes. Light from the sun causes sunburn if a person is overexposed (an ‘evil’), but light itself is not evil. The effect of imprudent overexposure is that the original good is ‘spoiled’, in this case, the beneficent effect of light builds up and builds up and causes a not beneficent effect of burning. Did God create ‘evil sunburn’ followed by evil skin keratosis, squamous cell carcinomas, and melenas?

A person eats too much. All the food is good, but the evil effects are overweight, stomach issues, too tight clothes, muscles becoming atrophied, etc.etc. All these things start with good. The stomach is good. Muscles are good. The effects of ‘too much’ of a good thing though become not good.

A person fornicates. The sexual act is good (within marriage). Outside marriage, the person merely indulges his or her body and mind with all the nice endorphins and the feeling of being ‘loved’, but sooner or later the relationship stops. And there is not only the pain of less, but deep inside, the knowledge that the whole sexual relationship was made evil in that it was all a fake. This was not a real giving for life, it was a ‘trade’ of good feelings, and then a rejection of the person on the deepest level, leading to feelings of worthlessness that spill over into every future relationship. But the ‘bad effects’ start with good. The human body is good. The human mind is good. Caring for a person, ‘loving’ are good. Abuse of those things lead to evil.

And these are not ‘set up by God’. They are the results of making a free choice to reject the good in favor of having what we should not, too much or too little of what we should, etc.

 

[Richca]

Isaiah 45:7 - “I form the light, and create darkness, I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord that do all these things.” (Douay-Rheims)

This question may have been discussed before, but it’s a topic where I would like people’s opinion. Keep in mind that we believe in one God, not two, one good and the other evil. The paradox for me is in people’s belief that God is all good, and cannot do anything evil. I know that many will try and say that Lucifer had a free will and chose evil, but I would contend that such a belief has to be false because evil would have had to be present before Lucifer chose it.

In short, God’s rules the world by his providence. Nothing happens in the world by chance or outside of his providence which includes even the sins and wicked deeds of wicked people. God permits sins but they would not take place without his permission and will. God permits evil to bring good out of it. God also inflicts the evil of punishment which is actually a good because punishment is inflicted out of God’s justice which is a good. For example, the Israelites were banished from the promised land by foreign invaders who were instruments of God’s justice against the Israelites for disobeying God’s commandments. This is an example of the Lord ‘creating evil.’ To the Israelites, it was an evil to see their towns and villages destroyed, many of them killed, some sent into exile, and overcome by foreign invaders. It was the Lord creating this evil that befell them due to their disobedience to God’s commandments. This evil of punishment is really a good though as it comes from God’s justice. God is also the one who makes peace as he told the Israelites that if they kept his commandments the Israelites would have peace on their borders. Our Lady of Fatima said that war is a punishment from God for sin.

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

I am no Authority on Anything religious ,but I believe everything in Gods Creation has a balance,
You can’t have a Positive without a negative ,you can’t have good without bad,
You can’t have birth without death , you can’t have peace & Holyness without Sin,
Balance is everywhere , it’s up to the individual which side of the Ledger you choose

 

[Jomann]

You must be very careful when extracting something doctrinal from OT. The ultimate truth was only revealed in Jesus. Primarily the OT is historical to Christians. And we have to consider the way it was written was in form of exaggerated allegories in most part.

God indeed created the possibility of evil just like an architect creates the possibility to jump out from a high balcony. The first creation of God was the Nihil a reality lacking an infinite potency. God created anything else from Nihil. Nihil itself is not evil but is the stuff evil is made. Evil is the lack of God.

Satan first chose to jump in the abyss of Nihil, the only “place” where he could be a creator. He created evil, evil is the Columbus’ egg of Devil. And he’s still digging it out.

 

[Robert_Sock]

“While God has created man with both good and evil inclinations, the two powers or tendencies that pull him in opposite directions, God commands each man to choose the good and right path over the evil.”
-Wikipedia

The above is Jewish in origin, but it describes what I’m trying to get at in having created this post. Although it’s Jewish, it does not take much analysis to know that we have both an evil and good inclination. In Catholicism, the evil inclination is similar to concupiscence.

 

[BrunoMaria]

the original question is as provocative as wrong.
God never created anything non-good.

Imagine a good father, who’s son suddenly reacts evil.
Did this father make this? Definitely not.

God created all He did create (angels) as good, but with free will. Anyone who’s got a free will, is free to decide for good or bad. Animals can not - the just react - hence can not be neither specifically good nor bad. Angels could - we can.

Such, Lucifer’s evilness was not created, but decided. He was therefore condemmned in all eternity. It’s him who keeps creating evil in the world.

All in belief is so terribly easy to comprehend. But it takes the will to. Pope Benedict therefore rightly said:
Belief is easy!

 

[OneSheep]

That’s a good way of looking at it, but we still have Isaiah 45:7 to contend with. I personally view evil as a state of affairs which is programmed into us and our world.

How would you explain the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Hi Robert,

Great question, and I really like your starting point for the thread. As far the Tree goes, I think it refers directly to the formation of the conscience, which has to do with knowing what is good to do, and what is bad. Evidence of this was in the effect of eating. A&E “learned” that it was bad (shameful) to be unclothed.

So Isaiah 45:7 is not correct? I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

Well, to the degree that Isaiah 45:7 contradicts other parts of the Bible, i.e. NT explanations that God is Love, then yes, it is literally “incorrect”, it needs explaining, as other posters have done very well so far. I really liked Tantum ergo’s first response, I am wondering what your response to her is. I liked Wesrock’s too.

Another angle to this, Robert, is “Do humans have an evil inclination?” This is an assertion in itself that needs to be established. Humans definitely have an inclination to love one another and love God. They have an inclination to meet their own needs, satisfying their God-given inclinations to survive and thrive. While we are in the process of satisfying our own needs, we do occasionally do hurtful things. Is this an “inclination” to do evil? If yes, we are saying that the hurtful side-effects are what we are inclined to, but this is very difficult to establish.

We are inclined to do good, to do what we see as good.

 

[po18guy]

So Isaiah 45:7 is not correct? I believe that God created the evil inclination in humans.

In the link, we see that this verse has been interpreted variously. Isaiah 45:7. And, from the Rev. George Leo Haydock Commentary:

"Ver. 7. Create evil, &c. The evils of afflictions and punishments, but not the evil of sin. (Challoner) — I afflict and comfort my people.

Some translations describe God as placing limits on the ocean, so that it will not surpass the shore. Thus, is the ocean evil? After all, souls perish in it.

Evil, as defined in the Modern Catholic Dictionary, by Fr. John Hardon, S. J.†

EVIL. The privation of a good that should be present. It is the lack of a good that essentially belongs to a nature; the absence of a good that is natural and due to a being. Evil is therefore the absence of what ought to be there.

Evil is not created, it is not a “thing” It is anti-thing. It is the lack of good, a negative, not a positive. A vacuum, not a pressure. God, Who is existence Itself, cannot create against His nature. He cannot create a negative, as that is anti-God. However, He can create beings and grant them the freedom to lose the grace with which they were born.

Do you need a catechism? I will send you one.