If God didn't create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how

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Hi, If God didn’t create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how can we be said to create the physical place of hell?

Evil is that which is lacking the fullness of good (or that which is good, God). Here is what Saint Faustina says: divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

I haven’t read it, but I head the children of Fatima were also shown hell, or Mother Mary told them about it or something…

I am talking to a Muslim friend who says they can get out of hell after serving time there (Islam seems to teach that theory), and cannot seem to get across the message of God’s perfect justice which is eternal. I also mentioned the above, but Muslims seem to say God created hell.

Thanks for your scholarly help in advance!
 
‘One of these angels was most beautiful, and was named Lucifer, which means light-bearer. He was so perfect that he seems to have forgotten that he received all his beauty and intelligence from God, and not content with what he had, became sinfully proud and wished to be equal to God Himself. For his sin he and all his followers were driven out of Heaven, and God then created Hell, in which they were to suffer for all eternity. This same Lucifer is now called Satan, and more commonly the devil, and those who accompanied him in his fall, devils, or fallen angels.’

Baltimore Catechism #4
 
Read the description, several pages long, in the very beginning (probably pages 2-6) of volume I The Life of Christ and Biblical Revelations by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich. Although, it may not have the same impact if you don’t have an understanding of the Fall beforehand, and the damaging effects of untempered self-interest, it is still valuable (it does not require a great respect for visions or mysticism; it mostly stands on its own).

If you can’t find it online, please tell me, and I will check the copyright information and see if I can transcribe it here.
 
Khalid said:
Read the description, several pages long, in the very beginning (probably pages 2-6) of volume I The Life of Christ and Biblical Revelations by Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich. Although, it may not have the same impact if you don’t have an understanding of the Fall beforehand, and the damaging effects of untempered self-interest, it is still valuable (it does not require a great respect for visions or mysticism; it mostly stands on its own).

If you can’t find it online, please tell me, and I will check the copyright information and see if I can transcribe it here.
Click to expand...
I will look for it. My Muslim friend doesn’t get the need for a Savior. Says we will be judged for good or bad, and then most will go to heaven after some time in hell for sins. I cannot seem to get across the need for a perfect sacrifice for sin and the permanence / eternity of heaven and hell. You are ex Muslim? Any ideas with that? Maybe i need to post on a new thread based on those questions alone. It is sort of frustrating, but leading me to grow in my faith (THANKS BE TO GOD!).
 
GodHeals said:
I will look for it. My Muslim friend doesn’t get the need for a Savior. Says we will be judged for good or bad, and then most will go to heaven after some time in hell for sins. I cannot seem to get across the need for a perfect sacrifice for sin and the permanence / eternity of heaven and hell. You are ex Muslim? Any ideas with that? Maybe i need to post on a new thread based on those questions alone. It is sort of frustrating, but leading me to grow in my faith (THANKS BE TO GOD!).
Click to expand...
Yes, I am a “recovering Muslim”, to borrow the term, and can explain the doctrines and theology quite well, and can recommend further reading/good books/unbiased, non-apologetic literature even more quite well. Ask and you shall receive, to the best of my ability.
 
GodHeals said:
Hi, If God didn’t create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how can we be said to create the physical place of hell?

Evil is that which is lacking the fullness of good (or that which is good, God). Here is what Saint Faustina says: divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

I haven’t read it, but I head the children of Fatima were also shown hell, or Mother Mary told them about it or something…

I am talking to a Muslim friend who says they can get out of hell after serving time there (Islam seems to teach that theory), and cannot seem to get across the message of God’s perfect justice which is eternal. I also mentioned the above, but Muslims seem to say God created hell.

Thanks for your scholarly help in advance!
Click to expand...
…though not a scholar… Jesus tells us that Hell was actually Created for Satan (Lucifer) and his demons (angels that fell along with Satan):
Then he will say to those on his left hand, "Go away from me, with your curse upon you, to the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (St. Matthew 25:41)
Click to expand...
…and, while there’s no problem with anyone thinking God Created Hell, any theology that spouses penance to get out of Hell is not based on Christianity: only way out ending up of Hell is Jesus–but if we chose Hell… nothing will bring us back to God!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
…though not a scholar… Jesus tells us that Hell was actually Created for Satan (Lucifer) and his demons (angels that fell along with Satan):

…and, while there’s no problem with anyone thinking God Created Hell, any theology that spouses penance to get out of Hell is not based on Christianity: only way out ending up of Hell is Jesus–but if we chose Hell… nothing will bring us back to God!

Maran atha!

Angel
Click to expand...
Thanks for the post and the scripture.
 
Khalid said:
Yes, I am a “recovering Muslim”, to borrow the term, and can explain the doctrines and theology quite well, and can recommend further reading/good books/unbiased, non-apologetic literature even more quite well. Ask and you shall receive, to the best of my ability.
Click to expand...
Muslims - What is best way to share the need for a sacrifical Lamb of God (Jesus), opposed to dying and being judged on good and bad personal deeds, and that hell is eternal?

So what is the best way to get across to Muslims the need for a sacrifical Lamb of God to take away their sins. It seems they believe they don’t need a Savior and will just be judged at the end of the world. Totally disregarding needing a Savior. I cannot seem to get the point across to my Muslim friend and i am sowewhat new at evanglizing Muslims.

Thanks!
 
GodHeals said:
Muslims - What is best way to share the need for a sacrifical Lamb of God (Jesus), opposed to dying and being judged on good and bad personal deeds, and that hell is eternal?

So what is the best way to get across to Muslims the need for a sacrifical Lamb of God to take away their sins. It seems they believe they don’t need a Savior and will just be judged at the end of the world. Totally disregarding needing a Savior. I cannot seem to get the point across to my Muslim friend and i am sowewhat new at evanglizing Muslims.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
…I think that part of the problem you have is that they cannot accept Jesus as a Savior since it will dismantle their faith base… Jesus, as I understand it, to Musliims is just a prophet and teacher (not even *the *prophet).

…if the person/s is receptive you must start by familiarizing him/her with the purpose of the Messiah and God’s Salvific Plan (quick study of Genesis 3:15; Apocalypse 12; St. John 3:14-21; St. John 4:23-24; St. John 15:1-10).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton said:
…I think that part of the problem you have is that they cannot accept Jesus as a Savior since it will dismantle their faith base… Jesus, as I understand it, to Musliims is just a prophet and teacher (not even *the *prophet).

…if the person/s is receptive you must start by familiarizing him/her with the purpose of the Messiah and God’s Salvific Plan (quick study of Genesis 3:15; Apocalypse 12; St. John 3:14-21; St. John 4:23-24; St. John 15:1-10).

Maran atha!

Angel
Click to expand...
Thank you for the verses! God Bless You! It seems there is no easy way… PRAYER needs to be first and then the sharing of the entire Gospel, which i think i have done.

You are right, Mohammed is a greater prophet than Jesus and the rest, in Islam. They say Peace Be Upon Him for Mohammed, and AS for the rest, I think… or SAW for Mohammed too, it seems.
 
GodHeals said:
Thank you for the verses! God Bless You! It seems there is no easy way… PRAYER needs to be first and then the sharing of the entire Gospel, which i think i have done.

You are right, Mohammed is a greater prophet than Jesus and the rest, in Islam. They say Peace Be Upon Him for Mohammed, and AS for the rest, I think… or SAW for Mohammed too, it seems.
Click to expand...
…yeah, as St. James explained, prayer goes a long way!

…we also have to remember that we are called to witness and to warn (sentinel)… conversion (conviction) is the Job of the Holy Spirit!

…so do your best to know your Faith and present it with generosity and love… God will do the rest, if the other person/s is willing!

…we must also remember to employ loads of patience as non-Believers must overcome decades, if not centuries, of cultural and religious upbringing.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
GodHeals said:
Hi, If God didn’t create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how can we be said to create the physical place of hell?

Evil is that which is lacking the fullness of good (or that which is good, God). Here is what Saint Faustina says: divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

I haven’t read it, but I head the children of Fatima were also shown hell, or Mother Mary told them about it or something…

I am talking to a Muslim friend who says they can get out of hell after serving time there (Islam seems to teach that theory), and cannot seem to get across the message of God’s perfect justice which is eternal. I also mentioned the above, but Muslims seem to say God created hell.

Thanks for your scholarly help in advance!
Click to expand...
Sounds as tho the Muslem’s hell is our purgatory.

We can’t prove anything when it comes to the next world since it is out of our reach except for our faith.

Give him a Green Scapular. I believe Muslems revere Mary.

Mary appeared and spoke with Sister Justine Bisqueyburu, a
Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, in 1840, about a green scapular.

Mary herself made promises to those who would keep the scapular on them, and would say a certain prayer everyday, and believe that Mary would obtain those favors from her Son. Here are the favors she promised:
  1. Conversion of those who do not have the faith
  2. Reconciliation to the Church for those who have lost/strayed from the faith
  3. Assurance of a happy death
  4. Strengthening of the faith for those already in the Church
  5. Protection from Satan for those who wear or promote the scapular
This is the very answer to your search. But on your part you must
pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”,
once for yourself and once for your friend every day.

Here are the very words of Mary to Sister Justine:
“The GREATEST graces come from using the scapular but these graces come
in direct proportion to the degree of CONFIDENCE in ME which the user has.”
The user is the giver in this case, the trust depends on you for it to work well.

Fear is a sign of lack of trust.
What kind of confidence? Mary showed this herself at the annunciation of Gabriel.
“Yes, blessed is she who BELIEVED that the PROMISE made her by the Lord would be FULFILLED.” (Lk. 1;45)
St. Elizabeth extolling the absolute trust of Mary in God’s promise. Mary believed without doubt that it would happen as the angel said it would.

You may get a free one by googling “Green Scapular”. Get one for yourself as well.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=620449
(From an atheist)
How did you come to embrace Catholicism?
Strangely enough, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary. That friend of mine had sneakily
snuck in a scapular under my mattress. I didn’t know until about 1 year into my
conversion. I imagine that she had something to do with it. I think it was the
green scapular.
 
GodHeals said:
Hi, If God didn’t create HELL or EVIL, but permitted it, how can we be said to create the physical place of hell?

Evil is that which is lacking the fullness of good (or that which is good, God). Here is what Saint Faustina says: divinemercysunday.com/vision.htm

I haven’t read it, but I head the children of Fatima were also shown hell, or Mother Mary told them about it or something…

I am talking to a Muslim friend who says they can get out of hell after serving time there (Islam seems to teach that theory), and cannot seem to get across the message of God’s perfect justice which is eternal. I also mentioned the above, but Muslims seem to say God created hell.

Thanks for your scholarly help in advance!
Click to expand...
Hell is not a place. It is a state of being. Same with heaven and purgatory.
 
Hi all,
Hell seems to have been created by God, out of love/respect for those who choose an eternity away from him. But God did not create evil. Rather, he created creatures with free will, angels and humanity, so that they had the power to live in loving communion with him. In order to love, one must be able to freely choose. Love cannot be forced. A consequence of free will is the ability to choose not to love, thus evil and all its consequences, and the need for a “space” of eternally apart from God. In the same way that heaven is the state of being in the presence of God face to face (beautific vision), hell is the state of being forever apart from God. The greatest pain of hell is the remorse of being eternally separated from God and his love.

My own speculation is that the second greatest pain of hell may be that in the absence of love, rule is by the mightiest. Think of the torment inflicted on the victims of Hitler’s Nazi concentration camps. Then think of being deliberately tormented eternally for the pleasure of a supernatural intelligence.The neighbors, Satan and his minions, are much more powerful than any human, and they particularly hate us because we are made in the image of God.
Love in Christ, Bob
 
rvergenz said:
Hi all,
Hell seems to have been created by God, out of love/respect for those who choose an eternity away from him. But God did not create evil. Rather, he created creatures with free will, angels and humanity, so that they had the power to live in loving communion with him. In order to love, one must be able to freely choose. Love cannot be forced. A consequence of free will is the ability to choose not to love, thus evil and all its consequences, and the need for a “space” of eternally apart from God. In the same way that heaven is the state of being in the presence of God face to face (beautific vision), hell is the state of being forever apart from God. The greatest pain of hell is the remorse of being eternally separated from God and his love.

My own speculation is that the second greatest pain of hell may be that in the absence of love, rule is by the mightiest. Think of the torment inflicted on the victims of Hitler’s Nazi concentration camps. Then think of being deliberately tormented eternally for the pleasure of a supernatural intelligence.The neighbors, Satan and his minions, are much more powerful than any human, and they particularly hate us because we are made in the image of God.
Love in Christ, Bob
Click to expand...
…but it is clear from Scriptures that Satan and his minions will also be tortured… do you recall the passage where a demon asks something to the effect: ‘…why have you come to torment us before time?’

Maran atha!

Angel
 
I think Albert Einstein said it best- I paraphrase- can we measure darkness no we can only mesure light- can we measure cold no only can we measure warmth- can we measure evil- no we can’t because the the abcence of Love is evil.
 
fred_conty said:
Sounds as tho the Muslem’s hell is our purgatory.

We can’t prove anything when it comes to the next world since it is out of our reach except for our faith.

Give him a Green Scapular. I believe Muslems revere Mary.

Mary appeared and spoke with Sister Justine Bisqueyburu, a
Daughter of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul, in 1840, about a green scapular.

Mary herself made promises to those who would keep the scapular on them, and would say a certain prayer everyday, and believe that Mary would obtain those favors from her Son. Here are the favors she promised:
  1. Conversion of those who do not have the faith
  2. Reconciliation to the Church for those who have lost/strayed from the faith
  3. Assurance of a happy death
  4. Strengthening of the faith for those already in the Church
  5. Protection from Satan for those who wear or promote the scapular
This is the very answer to your search. But on your part you must
pray, at least daily: “Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.”,
once for yourself and once for your friend every day.

Here are the very words of Mary to Sister Justine:
“The GREATEST graces come from using the scapular but these graces come
in direct proportion to the degree of CONFIDENCE in ME which the user has.”
The user is the giver in this case, the trust depends on you for it to work well.

Fear is a sign of lack of trust.
What kind of confidence? Mary showed this herself at the annunciation of Gabriel.
“Yes, blessed is she who BELIEVED that the PROMISE made her by the Lord would be FULFILLED.” (Lk. 1;45)
St. Elizabeth extolling the absolute trust of Mary in God’s promise. Mary believed without doubt that it would happen as the angel said it would.

You may get a free one by googling “Green Scapular”. Get one for yourself as well.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=620449
(From an atheist)
How did you come to embrace Catholicism?
Strangely enough, it was the Blessed Virgin Mary. That friend of mine had sneakily
snuck in a scapular under my mattress. I didn’t know until about 1 year into my
conversion. I imagine that she had something to do with it. I think it was the
green scapular.
Click to expand...
THANKS BE TO GOD. I LOVE MOTHER MARY! I APPRECIATE YOUR SHARING. I DO HAVE A BROWN SCAPULAR FROM FIRST COMMUNION? I THINK? I HAVE WORN IT OFF AND ON. DO YOU WEAR YOUR SCAPULAR EVERYDAY? I JUST DON’T LIKE HOW IT FEELS UNDER MY SHIRT… NOT SURE IF THAT IS A GOOD ENOUGH EXCUSE!

I HAVE HAD A COUPLE OF POWERFUL DREAMS OF MARY; ONE OR TWO? SUCKING FLIES (EVIL?) OUT OF ME WHERE I WOKE UP. THIS WAS IN 2004 OR SO I BELIEVE. THEY WERE POWERFUL, BUT I DIDN’T AND STILL AM LEARNING WHAT THEY MEANT. I BELIEVE MOTHER MARY HAS PROTECTED ME FROM FALLING DEEPER INTO SIN AND EVIL AND BROUGHT ME CLOSER TO JESUS.

Sorry for the CAPS. Not sure why I used them. Wasn’t yelling at you.
God Bless You,
Brian
 
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