If God doesn't exist, does anything have meaning or value?

[duncan123]

But if God does not exist, this thing you call “enjoy” is simply a feedback mechanism to tend to provide your assembly of atoms something that it benefits from. But what does it matter if your atoms have developed such a feedback mechanism? Why is that better than any other atom-assembly feedback mechanism, or none at all?

I think what you are refering to is EGO !! Take the ego away and things just are…You want to find god live in the moment… Where are you? Here… What time is it? Now… WHAT ARE YOU ? THIS MOMENT…

 

[empther]

I just finished reading Joseph Conrad’s *Heart of Darkness *again. A sailor named Marlow, who critics agree represent Conrad himself, goes up the Congo River to the remote Inner Station to find Kurtz. He finds out that Kurtz, who had left Europe and gone to Africa with an intention of civilizing the natives has himself become totally degenerate.

Conrad was a materialist. He didn’t believe man had a soul. Death was exactly that: death, the end, nothingness.

The “darkness” was the world in which man would inevitably die pointlessly.

As Kurtz dies, his last words are, “The horror! The horror!”

He had summed up – he had judged. “The horror!” He was a remarkable man. After all, this was the expression of some sort of belief; it had candour, it had conviction, it had a vibrating note of revolt in its whisper, it had the appalling face of a glimpsed truth – the strange commingling of desire and hate.

Conrad thought a man with ambition and desires will use evil means to get what he wants if he can’t get it legitimately. There is not guilt to this because there is no soul. This is the horror.
　
　
If God doesn’t exist then life is meaningless, a brief moment of rewardless suffering and than we’re gone.

 

[damianmark]

Well if even in the absence of God in a world that is just a series of random occurrences, did the people you made smile cry or laugh mean nothing? If you caused misery and torment does that mean in the absence of God you are fine to do as you will? If we only exist for the moment then does that moment have to be a selfish indulgence that can only ever be self serving? If God does not exist and knowing that for a fact means that you can be evil because you fear no consequence for your actions? If we live and die upon each moment then then let that moment be God and let us be the best that we can ever be

 

[duncan123]

I just finished reading Joseph Conrad’s *Heart of Darkness *again. A sailor named Marlow, who critics agree represent Conrad himself, goes up the Congo River to the remote Inner Station to find Kurtz. He finds out that Kurtz, who had left Europe and gone to Africa with an intention of civilizing the natives has himself become totally degenerate.

Conrad was a materialist. He didn’t believe man had a soul. Death was exactly that: death, the end, nothingness.

The “darkness” was the world in which man would inevitably die pointlessly.

As Kurtz dies, his last words are, “The horror! The horror!”

Conrad thought a man with ambition and desires will use evil means to get what he wants if he can’t get it legitimately. There is not guilt to this because there is no soul. This is the horror.
　
　
If God doesn’t exist then life is meaningless, a brief moment of rewardless suffering and than we’re gone.

WOW !!! Thats depressing… That a person would go to such lenghts to find meaning and purpose… Can you not just exist?? Must you be something/someone?? God does exist and is all around us in the medium of the pretry dish that we exist in… Instead of spending so much energy living in the ego of trying to be something/someone; perhaps it is better to live in the way that all the great teachers lived (Jesus included) with love, compassion, stillness, mindfullness. Perhaps, spending our energy in this way and for others will find us meaning/value/purpose/peace, even if they are man made… When you inhale a breath there is a pause before you exhale. In that pause there is emptyness, void of thoutht… There you will find peace… I suggest we take longer pauses…

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

If yes, please explain why.

Without God there is no objective purpose for why everything exists. Things would simply exist for no reason but this can’t happen because nothing exists without a purpose for its existance. Trees exist for a reason, animals exist for a reason, the laws of gravity, seasons, and etc. all exist for a reason and when we find the reason for their existance we find their purpose. Yet none of these things choose their own purpose; none of them have assigned themselves their own reason for existing. We know the source of their objective purpose is not themselves because none of them are the source of thier own existance; meaning they did not will themselves into being, they were created and what created them is the source of their purpose. Humans likewise cannot will themselves into existance, therefor there is a reason for why they are here and an objective purpose for why they exist which they are not the source of.

 

[snarflemike]

Well if even in the absence of God in a world that is just a series of random occurrences, did the people you made smile cry or laugh mean nothing?

You mean that other assemblies of atoms (AofA) had certain reactions to my AofA? So what? That’s happening throughout the universe, big deal.

If you caused misery and torment does that mean in the absence of God you are fine to do as you will?

Why not? Atoms don’t care.

If we only exist for the moment then does that moment have to be a selfish indulgence that can only ever be self serving?

Why not? What do AofA “owe” to other AofA?

If God does not exist and knowing that for a fact means that you can be evil because you fear no consequence for your actions? If we live and die upon each moment then then let that moment be God and let us be the best that we can ever be

Why does it matter how different AofA behave? It’s all just the laws of physics in operation, if God doesn’t exist. Do the laws of physics speak to “evil”? Of course not. Is it evil when a star goes supernova? When particle and antiparticle annihilate? The question doesn’t even have any meaning.

 

[damianmark]

so because you claim that atoms electrons and neutrons only exist and act in accordance with the rules laid down by physics and have no direct influence over their behaviour (I don’t agree) then we are also just a victim of circumstance with no direct control over our own behaviour??? Am I an accident an occurrence of the universe at large? simply mass sucked in to a void until it reaches a critical point and spews back what it has absorbed? Well I’m sorry but I do have a choice I can choose I am not a force operating upon another force indiscreetly!I am indeed energy waiting to be converged but I have a choice in how that will happpen and impact upon my environment

 

[snarflemike]

so because you claim that atoms electrons and neutrons only exist and act in accordance with the rules laid down by physics and have no direct influence over their behaviour (I don’t agree) then we are also just a victim of circumstance with no direct control over our own behaviour??? Am I an accident an occurrence of the universe at large? simply mass sucked in to a void until it reaches a critical point and spews back what it has absorbed? Well I’m sorry but I do have a choice I can choose I am not a force operating upon another force indiscreetly!I am indeed energy waiting to be converged but I have a choice in how that will happpen and impact upon my environment

If you are just an AofA, how do you have any more “choice” than an apple has “choice” to fall to the ground? Isn’t everything you do reducable to the laws of physics? Where does choice come in? Does a computer program have “choice”?

 

[itullian]

the question is wrong.

life after death is the key. God or no God.

without that everything is meaningless.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

the question is wrong.

life after death is the key. God or no God.

without that everything is meaningless.

Shalom Itullian;

So very true. In fact, they both go hand in hand. Even if we we’re immortal but with no G-d, life would still be meaningless, and in fact, would become sad, empty, and depressing.

But I agree with your point. The first, life after death, is the most important, existentially. Then, meaningfully, G-d must be as well, for He alone can provide purpose.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[itullian]

Shalom Itullian;

So very true. In fact, they both go hand in hand. Even if we we’re immortal but with no G-d, life would still be meaningless, and in fact, would become sad, empty, and depressing.

But I agree with your point. The first, life after death, is the most important, existentially. Then, meaningfully, G-d must be as well, for He alone can provide purpose.

Shalom Aleichem

Shalom Aleichem brother,

yes, even if there’s God, so what? we perish in the blink of an eye…oblivion.
life after death is the key.

 

[circumferential]

‘Meaning’ or ‘value’ always need qualification. There needs to be someone or something which values or who finds meaning in. Certainly however, if you remove God, the Ultimate Being, then one cannot have ultimate value or meaning.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Shalom Aleichem brother,

yes, even if there’s God, so what? we perish in the blink of an eye…oblivion.
life after death is the key.

This was the very conclusion the writer of Ecclesiastes came to, and most all of Israel for that matter; there was no real hope for life after death prior to Mashiach being raised from the dead.

“Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity.”

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Meaning is a relational concept. Even many forms of what is labeled as “Objective Meaning” is expressive of a relationship between some object and a very specific perceiver. If you suppose that are no gods then is such a relationship possible? Quite certainly, as long there are minds to engage in that relationship!

 

[duncan123]

Without God there is no objective purpose for why everything exists. Things would simply exist for no reason but this can’t happen because nothing exists without a purpose for its existance. Trees exist for a reason, animals exist for a reason, the laws of gravity, seasons, and etc. all exist for a reason and when we find the reason for their existance we find their purpose. Yet none of these things choose their own purpose; none of them have assigned themselves their own reason for existing. We know the source of their objective purpose is not themselves because none of them are the source of thier own existance; meaning they did not will themselves into being, they were created and what created them is the source of their purpose. Humans likewise cannot will themselves into existance, therefor there is a reason for why they are here and an objective purpose for why they exist which they are not the source of.

Good one, I like this,copyed and saved.

 

[ReapReason]

Meaning must be ‘meaning to’.

You have given no justification for this. You are merely dictating what the word means to you.

 

[ReapReason]

Meaning is a relational concept.

Would you say that we do not discover meaning? That is clearly false given my experiences.

 

[ReapReason]

If you suppose that are no gods then is such a relationship possible? Quite certainly, as long there are minds to engage in that relationship!

Its not possible that reality has intrinsic meaning if the act of reality itself is not the actuality of meaning. Its possible that you can fantasize, pretend, or delude yourself in to thinking that life has meaning. Evidently atheists are equally prone to this delusional behavior.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

Would you say that we do not discover meaning?

Nope. “Discovering” the meaning that some one has assigned to something is a part of communication. How many times have you encountered some one that has uttered a phrase for which the intended meaning wasn’t apparent at first? Given a phrase, a speaker, and a listener there are two minds in this scenario that can engage in what I originally referred to as a “relationship.” There is a meaning relationship between the speaker and the phrase. There is also a meaning relationship between the listener and the phrase in his interpretation.

It is quite possible that the speaker is using a word or phrase in a manner that doesn’t conform to “standard use” such that many people might say her word usage is plain wrong. But this doesn’t in any way impact the relationship between the uttered phrase and her intended meaning. It is also possible that the listener doesn’t understand all the words whether because a word isn’t in his vocabulary, he can’t hear the person well, or he is thinking in a different context. A number of other actions, interactions, and considerations may play a role in one person “discovering” the meaning of the phrase.

Even through our interactions here you could be said to be discovering what I meant in my previous reply.

That is clearly false given my experiences.

That’s fine. That stance is, as far as I can see, compatible with what I’ve said.

Its not possible that reality has intrinsic meaning if the act of reality itself is not the actuality of meaning.

I’ll take note that you’ve said this, but my reply wasn’t contingent on the concept of “intrinsic meaning.”

 

[Bradski]

Even if we we’re immortal but with no G-d, life would still be meaningless, and in fact, would become sad, empty, and depressing.

Not believing in God, to all intents and purposes, is the same as there being no God. Something in which I don’t believe cannot have an influence on the way I live my life. For some people, they have not even heard of the Christian faith.

But their life would not be sad, empty and depressing. And neither is mine.