If God doesn't exist, does anything have meaning or value?

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Not believing in God, to all intents and purposes, is the same as there being no God. Something in which I don’t believe cannot have an influence on the way I live my life. For some people, they have not even heard of the Christian faith.

But their life would not be sad, empty and depressing. And neither is mine.

Shalom my friend;

My short response to this statement would be; if one is happy and content without G-d or the promise of some form of life after death, that person hasn’t thought deeply enough on these issues.

I say this because I once was this type of person; floating about, seemingly happy, until I had a serious reality check. That reality check was the acknowledgement of life’s futility without life after death, and the loss of meaning without G-d.

I am not saying that people who don’t believe in G-d cannot be happy, but rather, that they are living a logically inconsistent lifestyle, which cannot account for any such thing as happiness, love, purpose, etc.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bradski]

My short response to this statement would be; if one is happy and content without G-d or the promise of some form of life after death, that person hasn’t thought deeply enough on these issues.

That’s hardly a good reason to go looking for God. I’m obviously doing something drastically wrong and have been these last few decades, being happy and contented all that time.

I say this because I once was this type of person; floating about, seemingly happy, until I had a serious reality check. That reality check was the acknowledgement of life’s futility without life after death, and the loss of meaning without G-d.

Well if you come to the decision that life is futile, then you need to do something about it. If turning to God is a solution that works for you, it cannot be a bad thing. If believing in an afterlife helps you make it through the night, then that’s an answer that works. If it’s a comfort to you, then who am I to argue with that.

I am not saying that people who don’t believe in G-d cannot be happy, but rather, that they are living a logically inconsistent lifestyle, which cannot account for any such thing as happiness, love, purpose, etc.

But you have to be careful in assuming that what works for you will work for someone else. I don’t think that there’s an ultimate purpose to humankind. And it doesn’t worry me in the slightest, so I have no problem to solve.

 

[someperson555]

Not believing in God, to all intents and purposes, is the same as there being no God. Something in which I don’t believe cannot have an influence on the way I live my life. For some people, they have not even heard of the Christian faith.

But their life would not be sad, empty and depressing. And neither is mine.

exactly, if there was no God, that doesnt mean there cant be meaning to life, on the contrary, it would be us who create that meaning for ourselves!

 

[itullian]

exactly, if there was no God, that doesnt mean there cant be meaning to life, on the contrary, it would be us who create that meaning for ourselves!

there’s no objective meaning.

you can invent any meaning you want.
its still meaningless.
in a blink you’re gone…forever

think about it.

 

[ReapReason]

Nope. “Discovering” the meaning that some one has assigned to something is a part of communication.

You are talking here about creative meaning, fantasy. That in its self does not suggest that meaning is limited to what humans invent. I experience meaning that is different from creative meaning, such as guilt, virtue, and love. The human race discovered these things, they did not invent them.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

there’s no objective meaning.

you can invent any meaning you want.
its still meaningless.
in a blink you’re gone…forever

think about it.

That’s an argument that has been presented many times here and other places in different forms. I think the phrase “you can invent any meaning you want” is illustrative of meaning indicating a relationship between a mind and a “thing” (where thing can be object, concept, so on). But you are also getting into the question of whether there can be permanent meaning without a permanent mind. At least I think that is what you are getting into. When ever I see the phrase “objective meaning” it seems to refer to the subjective meanings assigned by a specific entity.

You are talking here about creative meaning, fantasy. That in its self does not suggest that meaning is limited to what humans invent.

Indeed, meaning isn’t limited to humans. So instead of referring to “humans” I refer to “minds.” An entity capable of what I can only now refer to as “thinking” can participate in assigning and discovering meaning. Even my cat may have some mental concept that is similar to meaning, though I’ll never know for sure since she never talks about these things.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

there’s no objective meaning.

you can invent any meaning you want.
its still meaningless.
in a blink you’re gone…forever

think about it.

Exactly; like I said, if you live happy and contented with such a reality, you really haven’t thought about life and it’s ultimate destiny hard enough.

This isn’t just a conclusion that theists come to, but mind you, many hard atheists ( an atheist who follows through on their world view ) admit to this, and they openly declare how depressing, futile, and meaningless life really is.

It really is that simple; you’re here, and you’re gone. Paraphrasing Jean Paul Sartre;

One second, or one lifetime; it doesn’t carry any significance, once you lose eternity

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ReapReason]

Indeed, meaning isn’t limited to humans. So instead of referring to “humans” I refer to “minds.” An entity capable of what I can only now refer to as “thinking” can participate in assigning and discovering meaning. Even my cat may have some mental concept that is similar to meaning, though I’ll never know for sure since she never talks about these things.

What relevance is it that a cat or an animal other than a human can invent fantasy?

You have not addressed what I have said.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

What relevance is it that a cat or an animal other than a human can invent fantasy?

You have not addressed what I have said.

I thought that I had. Perhaps there is disagreement in the part that I concentrated on and the part that you wanted me to concentrate on. I was concentrating on the word “human” when you said that meaning isn’t limited to what we humans invents. So I used the cat as an example of a non-human that may have some concept that we might describe as “meaning.”

That’s the second time you’ve used the words “invent” and “fantasy.” So perhaps those are the words you’d like emphasized the most. Would you mind expanding on your use of these words? Thanks.

 

[Bradski]

This isn’t just a conclusion that theists come to, but mind you, many hard atheists ( an atheist who follows through on their world view ) admit to this, and they openly declare how depressing, futile, and meaningless life really is.

I’d say that they have some problems in life, other than a lack of a belief in any particular god. I’ve talked to countless atheists (almost all on line) and I haven’t crossed paths with one that would fit your description.

It really is that simple; you’re here, and you’re gone.

I don’t see why everyone doesn’t get this. Not being here after you’re dead is exactly the same as not being here before you were born. Where’s the mystery?

 

[ThinkingSapien]

I’d say that they have some problems in life, other than a lack of a belief in any particular god. I’ve talked to countless atheists (almost all on line) and I haven’t crossed paths with one that would fit your description.

I’ve not come across too many hard atheist. Here I am assuming that hard atheist is synonymous with “positive atheist” or “strong atheist” as defined here.

Most atheist of which I know are agnostic atheist.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

I’d say that they have some problems in life, other than a lack of a belief in any particular god. I’ve talked to countless atheists (almost all on line) and I haven’t crossed paths with one that would fit your description.

Shalom Brad;

Precisely, that’s the whole point. Many atheists live with a worldview that cannot possibly give reason for being “happy” and “hopeful” in life. Despite this, some live happily, because they haven’t faced their world view for what it is; following it to its logical conclusion.

Bertrand Russell, for example, wrote that the logical atheist must build their life upon “the firm foundation of unyielding despair.”

You can try and build meaning or happiness without G-d or an afterlife, but it’s a farce.

If you cannot understand why the hope of life after death is central to being a happy person, you have not thought long enough on this point, that is all I can say.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bradski]

I’ve not come across too many hard atheist. Here I am assuming that hard atheist is synonymous with “positive atheist” or “strong atheist” as defined here.

Most atheist of which I know are agnostic atheist.

I don’t like splitting the definition, preferring to keep it simple: I don’t believe in gods. However, I’d be in the agnostic atheist group if you were to split them. As would, for example, the World’s Most Famous Atheist, Richard Dawkins.

Precisely, that’s the whole point. Many atheists live with a worldview that cannot possibly give reason for being “happy” and “hopeful” in life. Despite this, some live happily, because they haven’t faced their world view for what it is; following it to its logical conclusion.

No, no. I have faced ‘my’ world view for what it is. All the way through to it’s very logical conclusion. Non-existence when I die. And I still live happily. What’s not to enjoy about life? I mean, how extraordinarily lucky am I to be here in any case. That’s cause enough to celebrate in itself.

Bertrand Russell, for example, wrote that the logical atheist must build their life upon “the firm foundation of unyielding despair.”

Well, he wasn’t exactly Mr Chuckles, the Life and Soul of the Party. He was always a miserable old sod. The Leonard Cohen of Philosophy.

If you cannot understand why the hope of life after death is central to being a happy person, you have not thought long enough on this point, that is all I can say.

If hoping for a life after death makes you happy, then it must be a good thing for you. I’ve reached the decision that there is no after life and I’ve got to tell you, I’m pretty happy in that regard. Not worried or despondent. Quite relaxed, thanks for asking.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

If hoping for a life after death makes you happy, then it must be a good thing for you. I’ve reached the decision that there is no after life and I’ve got to tell you, I’m pretty happy in that regard. Not worried or despondent. Quite relaxed, thanks for asking.

Shalom friend,

I choose not to believe you.

I am glad you are happy (G-d willing, we all should strive to be such), but I refuse to accept your position as a logical conclusion.

Like I said, I was once in your position, an agnostic with atheistic leanings. I would have said I was happy too, if one would have asked, but I hadn’t given it enough serious thought yet.

Death, my friend; the total annihilation of yourself, your person, is an absolutely terrifying, hopeless, pit of despair. To the one who proclaims serenity over death, over this annihilation; I say, you kid yourself.

When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.

Those who sit comfortably with such a notion of complacency, simply haven’t stared into the pit long enough.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[itullian]

Shalom friend,

I choose not to believe you.

I am glad you are happy (G-d willing, we all should strive to be such), but I refuse to accept your position as a logical conclusion.

Like I said, I was once in your position, an agnostic with atheistic leanings. I would have said I was happy too, if one would have asked, but I hadn’t given it enough serious thought yet.

Death, my friend; the total annihilation of yourself, your person, is an absolutely terrifying, hopeless, pit of despair. To the one who proclaims serenity over death, over this annihilation; I say, you kid yourself.

When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you.

Those who sit comfortably with such a notion of complacency, simply haven’t stared into the pit long enough.

Shalom Aleichem

you speak true my friend.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

you speak true my friend.

Shalom my friend,

I speak only as one who has experienced the realization of this truth, first hand. It was my dark night of the soul, and it was truly the worst spiritual state I had ever been, in all my life. I had never felt so disconnected, alone, and far from my family, friends, and ultimately G-d. The thoughts of emptiness I felt, the futility of life, brought me face to face with a depression that grew like a tumor.

I know firsthand what the term, “unyielding despair” means; this was my life, every day, for a good 6 months, until I found G-d. ( Or until G-d found me )

It was a catalyst though, and G-d didn’t leave me to wither away; through my struggle, I came to know life, abundantly.

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Bradski]

I am glad you are happy (G-d willing, we all should strive to be such), but I refuse to accept your position as a logical conclusion.

All I can say is that what works for one person does not work for another. But it is not a logical conclusion to be afraid of non-existence.

Death, my friend; the total annihilation of yourself, your person, is an absolutely terrifying, hopeless, pit of despair. To the one who proclaims serenity over death, over this annihilation; I say, you kid yourself.

If you found yourself scared of death, if you found the prospect terrifying, then it is only logical that you would be drawn to a world view that promises victory over it. That’s perfectly understandable. But it seems that you cannot understand that someone, like myself, has also contemplated the certainty of death without finding it terrifying.

If you continue to think that I haven’t thought enough about it, then there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise. But thank you for your thoughts in any case.

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

All I can say is that what works for one person does not work for another. But it is not a logical conclusion to be afraid of non-existence.

If you found yourself scared of death, if you found the prospect terrifying, then it is only logical that you would be drawn to a world view that promises victory over it. That’s perfectly understandable. But it seems that you cannot understand that someone, like myself, has also contemplated the certainty of death without finding it terrifying.

If you continue to think that I haven’t thought enough about it, then there’s not much I can do to convince you otherwise. But thank you for your thoughts in any case.

My friend,

If a mad man rushed into your house right now, held a gun to your head and proceeded to threaten your death, would you not make an attempt to save your life? Would you not try to fend him off?

If you answer yes to this, why?

You will die in this life, whether sooner, or later. So why hold on? What about life gives you satisfaction?

If, in the end, you will cease to exist, what’s keeping you here now? If you are so comfortable with death, as you claim, what is so special about life that keeps you here enjoying its fruits?

( Please don’t take this as my suggesting you self harm, I am merely attempting to illustrate a point )

Shalom Aleichem

 

[YeshuaOrHaOlam]

Shalom my friends;

I feel as though my time on this thread is done, thank you for your kindness during our discussion.

To all those who have not yet come to faith in Yeshua, who feel confused, or lonely, know this;

There is a G-d out there who loves you more than you could ever know, and His Son, Yeshua can help you through any trial or tribulation. If you ever need help, or feel lost, look to Him, and He will give you rest. Miracles happen, everyday. Seek and you will find. May G-d bless you richly in your life.

Thank you again, and G-d love you.

Shalom Aleichem to you all.

 

[someperson555]

Exactly; like I said, if you live happy and contented with such a reality, you really haven’t thought about life and it’s ultimate destiny hard enough.

This isn’t just a conclusion that theists come to, but mind you, many hard atheists ( an atheist who follows through on their world view ) admit to this, and they openly declare how depressing, futile, and meaningless life really is.

It really is that simple; you’re here, and you’re gone. Paraphrasing Jean Paul Sartre;

Shalom Aleichem

yes, sartre is correct, “youre here and youre gone”… but youre also free.
and its that freedom which would be the ultimate joy of life.