If God Doesn't "Prove Himself" to Preserve Free Will, What of "Apparitions"?

[aperture]

Kind of a vague title, but I wanted to get the gist of things concisely.

At any rate, I’ve often read that God doesn’t prove himself because doing so would violate free will. For example: one might ask why God does not, say, rearrange the stars in order to have a conversation with someone in a sort of celestial instant-messaging. The answer, as far as I know, is that He cannot do that if He is to preserve free will.

But where do apparitions (pardon me if that’s not the correct term) like the Blessed Lady of Fatima fit into this? The Catholic Church “recognizes” this event, in which a few children were apparently visited by a real-life angel. Isn’t that rather similar to God “proving” himself? I imagine that most atheists would be forced to think long and harder if an angel came down and talked to them.

Furthermore, why would God make Himself known to certain people and not others? It is easy to believe if one has actually experienced a miracle. This means that certain people have a much easier time of believing than others: they have proof.

This bothers me.

 

[LilyM]

Not at all. For starters lots of people (even some who were there) were and remain sceptical - they retain their free will to believe or not to believe. Just as they did even when faced with Jesus Himself preaching in front of them.

For another, the Church merely says that such things as Fatima are ‘worthy of belief’, meaning that there is no natural explanation and that the content of the message is not offensive to Church teaching. That’s a far cry from saying they actually happened and are required belief for Catholics.

 

[choy]

wait, God already has proven Himself several times throughout the Bible, and yet people still refused to believe

just read Exodus. they’ve seen the plagues, the sea parted way for them, they’ve been guided by fire through the desert, they’ve seen the handwriting of God on stone tablets, they’ve been fed mana, and in the end the still had the gall to make a golden calf and worship it

if you see Jesus in the flesh flying around like Superman in the sky, would it make a difference? i think there will still be skeptics, non-believers and naysayers out there

 

[aperture]

wait, God already has proven Himself several times throughout the Bible, and yet people still refused to believe

just read Exodus. they’ve seen the plagues, the sea parted way for them, they’ve been guided by fire through the desert, they’ve seen the handwriting of God on stone tablets, they’ve been fed mana, and in the end the still had the gall to make a golden calf and worship it

if you see Jesus in the flesh flying around like Superman in the sky, would it make a difference? i think there will still be skeptics, non-believers and naysayers out there

I agree that there would still be skeptics, but the fact remains that if they saw Jesus fly around in the sky, many people would have to change their minds. If only a few people are permitted to see this sort of thing first-hand - as only a few people were able to experience God’s actions in the OT - than doesn’t that mean that belief is easier for those people?

 

[srlucado]

I agree that there would still be skeptics, but the fact remains that if they saw Jesus fly around in the sky, many people would have to change their minds. If only a few people are permitted to see this sort of thing first-hand - as only a few people were able to experience God’s actions in the OT - than doesn’t that mean that belief is easier for those people?

Well, as one great author wrote,

…If you have ever stopped to watch a hawk in flight, or seen how a tree grows from a seedling, and not believed…you have already turned a blind eye to miracles greater than any of you will ever perform.*

*Lucado, Scott R. Never Too Busy For You, p.82

 

[lynx]

I agree that there would still be skeptics, but the fact remains that if they saw Jesus fly around in the sky, many people would have to change their minds.

True.

If only a few people are permitted to see this sort of thing first-hand - as only a few people were able to experience God’s actions in the OT - than doesn’t that mean that belief is easier for those people?

Also true.

The bottom line is that God does not show himself. To do so removes free will. If you see an apparition then you are either seeing things or going mad. The same applies to any feelings of God or mumblings in your head. I suspect, only during the 2nd coming will God make himself known to all.

 

[choy]

oh, forgot to mention one more thing

after Jesus resurrected Lazarus, what did the other people do? they wanted to kill Jesus and Lazarus, to deny the miracle ever took place

a few people saw God’s miracles in the OT, namely the Israelites in Exodus. but even though, their belief is still weak, they’ve succumbed to idol worship and doubts too many times. so no, even if they saw God at work, it still wasn’t easy for them to believe

 

[lynx]

oh, forgot to mention one more thing

after Jesus resurrected Lazarus, what did the other people do? they wanted to kill Jesus and Lazarus, to deny the miracle ever took place

a few people saw God’s miracles in the OT, namely the Israelites in Exodus. but even though, their belief is still weak, they’ve succumbed to idol worship and doubts too many times. so no, even if they saw God at work, it still wasn’t easy for them to believe

No one can say for sure what is in the mind of another man. But, I would think they have to believe because they saw it, they can’t un-see it. By trying to hide the miracle they must acknowledge it and therefore believe. Which makes this tough for me to reconcile. On the one hand, if this is true, God robbed these men of their free wil. On the other hand, this story isn’t true and is therefore meant to be interpreted differently within the logic of God’s universe.

 

[aperture]

Well, as one great author wrote…

As someone who really likes natural beauty (as most people do) I don’t know that this is a very good argument. There’s a difference between a seedling growing (which science can examine and explain) and, say, the stars being re-arranged to communicate a message. One is certainly a bit more awesome.

 

[Abba]

At any rate, I’ve often read that God doesn’t prove himself because doing so would violate free will.

Is this the latest atheist argument?

Did God rob all the biblical figures that experienced spiritual experience and visions and miracles of their Free Will?

Did God rob Saint Paul of his Free Will?

Did God rob all the Saints who saw Jesus of their Free Will? Did God rob Saint Anthony of Padua of his Free Will? Saint Faustina? Saint Anthony Mary de Claret? Etc…etc…etc…

No. He did not.

 

[lynx]

Is this the latest atheist argument?

It’s a philosophical question, religiously neutral.

Did God rob all the biblical figures that experienced spiritual experience and visions and miracles of their Free Will?

Did God rob Saint Paul of his Free Will?

Did God rob all the Saints who saw Jesus of their Free Will? Did God rob Saint Anthony of Padua of his Free Will? Saint Faustina? Saint Anthony Mary de Claret? Etc…etc…etc…

Maybe.

No. He did not.

Why?

 

[Abba]

It’s a philosophical question, religiously neutral.

Maybe.

Why?

Hello lynx,

It is way pass my bedtime and I am very sleepy. I will post again tomorrow. I will think about how to verbalize my understanding.

But, quickly I can say to you that a spiritual experience, miracle or apparition is in the process, if you will, of faith and spiritual development. What a human being yearns for is to be united with God and this longing continues even after faith, if you will, is confirmed by a supernatural experience. The person, e.g. Paul, still has Free Will because he can still choose to sin and choose all of his actions etc… It’s more like that…

---

Hello Aperture,

Remember: To all those that much is given much will be expected. So, there is nothing to be jealous or envious about.

I’ll be back…

 

[doughnut]

God has always shown himself, in many ways. The problem is mostly in us, how blind we are to the things he had revealed.

Very often, when in a religious gathering, there are bound to be some who felt strongly the presense of God, some felt something, and others not at all.

Is it the same place? Yes, but different experiences for different people. It is more of a matter of personal preparation. If we build a close relationship with God our Father, then we are more likely in tune with our sensitivity towards Him.

 

[lynx]

Hello lynx,

It is way pass my bedtime and I am very sleepy. I will post again tomorrow. I will think about how to verbalize my understanding.

Until tomorrow then

But, quickly I can say to you that a spiritual experience, miracle or apparition is in the process, if you will, of faith and spiritual development. What a human being yearns for is to be united with God and this longing continues even after faith, if you will, is confirmed by a supernatural experience.

Does faith need confirmation or is faith confirmed by natural order?

The person, e.g. Paul, still has Free Will because he can still choose to sin and choose all of his actions etc… It’s more like that…

So, is it your position that people by merit of humanity know of God?

 

[Abba]

Hello Lynx,

Thank you for your patience. Oof! Long and busy day…time to relax.

'Philosophical" that’s a big one. Hey, bwt, today is Immanuel Kant’s birthday. I prayed a Hail Mary for him. That was a birthday gift from me to him.

“religiously neutral” I don’t know about this. How can it be religiously neutral? What is the question? Let’s write the question down to be clear.

Aperture asked:

If God Doesn’t “Prove Himself” to Preserve Free Will, What of “Apparitions”?

Maybe to begin we can minimize the question and then after certain points are made we can consider the other parts of the question. How is this:

Did God deny the Free Will of all those persons who have experienced and/or witnessed apparitions or miracles or spiritual experiences? That is experiences that are supernatural and as such inexplicable by human knowledge per se, specifically - science.

What do you think Lynx? Is this the question? If it is, I think that there is nothing religiously neutral about it. Do you agree?

We also need to agree with what’s on the table. What is Free Will? What exactly do we mean when we use this phrase and that and nothing else with no assumptions. I will let you offer the definition of the Free Will that we are wondering about.

Peace,

Abba

 

[TomD123]

At any rate, I’ve often read that God doesn’t prove himself because doing so would violate free will. For example: one might ask why God does not, say, rearrange the stars in order to have a conversation with someone in a sort of celestial instant-messaging. The answer, as far as I know, is that He cannot do that if He is to preserve free will. ****This is only one possibility, but what this means is not always understood. When people say “it would violate free will” what they usually mean is that if God was the all powerful king appearing to everyone up in the sky and whenever someone did something bad he would immediately punish them, then it would violate free will because people would be good out of fear and not love, a little fear of the Lord is good, but not if it overrides our choice or decides for us. Another reason God probably does not appear to us is that it may cause people to actually be more evil than they are. If God were to appear to every person, some people would still deny him, remember Christ was crucified. So maybe God does not appear to some people because in all his wisdom he knows that they would end up rejecting him even more. One more thing that we have to remember is that God alone knows everything. We cannot always think of the reasoning of God’s actions, we can only speculate and accept ****

But where do apparitions (pardon me if that’s not the correct term) like the Blessed Lady of Fatima fit into this? The Catholic Church “recognizes” this event, in which a few children were apparently visited by a real-life angel. Isn’t that rather similar to God “proving” himself?
****God has given us many proofs of himself- the shroud, Eucharistic miracles, healing miracles, visions, etc. which help everyone to believe. However, God chooses some people to witness these events live or be a part of them. This does not mean that he takes away free will, God just knows that by revealing himself to these people, he can help accomplish something for all of us. For example, Saint Faustina had visions of Jesus. She was always devoted to the Blessed Sacrament and was a very prayerful woman. When Jesus appeared to her, he knew that she would accept the responsibilities given to her and he knew that she was the best person to carry out his mission of spreading a devotion to Divine Mercy. God did not take her free will away because she had already chosen to Love him and God knew that she would continue to do so regardless of the visions or not. ****
Furthermore, why would God make Himself known to certain people and not others? It is easy to believe if one has actually experienced a miracle. This means that certain people have a much easier time of believing than others: they have proof. **God’s plan is not always known to us. Remember God knows the possible outcome of every situation imaginable and he also knows the needs and states of the souls of every human. God’s plan is much larger than we can see now. We do not always know why God chooses a certain person to accomplish something, but we should trust in him. It is true that some people are given extra help with their faith, but on the other hand, if it is hard to have faith, and we still do, that would please God. Mother Theresa never had any mystic experiences yet she was one of the holiest people in the past century, she even had doubts at times, but she did not give up her faith, making her especially holy. **

 

[Abba]

TomD123:
What he said.

 

[StrawberryJam]

Kind of a vague title, but I wanted to get the gist of things concisely.

At any rate, I’ve often read that God doesn’t prove himself because doing so would violate free will. For example: one might ask why God does not, say, rearrange the stars in order to have a conversation with someone in a sort of celestial instant-messaging. The answer, as far as I know, is that He cannot do that if He is to preserve free will.

But where do apparitions (pardon me if that’s not the correct term) like the Blessed Lady of Fatima fit into this? The Catholic Church “recognizes” this event, in which a few children were apparently visited by a real-life angel. Isn’t that rather similar to God “proving” himself? I imagine that most atheists would be forced to think long and harder if an angel came down and talked to them.

Furthermore, why would God make Himself known to certain people and not others? It is easy to believe if one has actually experienced a miracle. This means that certain people have a much easier time of believing than others: they have proof.

This bothers me.

Thomas had more proof because Thomas demanded it.
I ask for proof, and get none.

The bible states if you seek you shall find. Knock, and the door will open.

I sought, knocked, and found nothing.

 

[lynx]

Hello Lynx,

Sup’?

Aperture asked:

If God Doesn’t “Prove Himself” to Preserve Free Will, What of “Apparitions”?

Maybe to begin we can minimize the question and then after certain points are made we can consider the other parts of the question. How is this:

Did God deny the Free Will of all those persons who have experienced and/or witnessed apparitions or miracles or spiritual experiences? That is experiences that are supernatural and as such inexplicable by human knowledge per se, specifically - science.

What do you think Lynx? Is this the question?

Very close. I feel that to understand an act is from God, then God must have entered your heart and mind so completely that you have no choice but to believe. For instance, if I were to see an amputee re-grow a leg I would not attribute God to the cause.

If it is, I think that there is nothing religiously neutral about it. Do you agree?

As per your definition, yes.

We also need to agree with what’s on the table. What is Free Will? What exactly do we mean when we use this phrase and that and nothing else with no assumptions. I will let you offer the definition of the Free Will that we are wondering about.

Free Will: The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

 

[flyingfish]

Personally I don’t see how proving himself would rob us of our free will (provided there is such a thing). We would still have the free will to decide whether or not to follow God, even if we know for a fact he exists.

The very concept of mortal sin implies that people who know God exists still have the free will to reject him.

We might not have the free will of whether or not to believe in God, since you can only choose to believe something if you don’t know that it exists.